Thread: Carl Gustav Jung - Videos, Books, Ruminations

Thanks, I'm glad you did. Yeah I know, things are pretty dead around here, aren't they? I think that's true for a lot of forums and message boards - apparently Facebook and Instagram and other social media are killing them off. It's a real shame, especially if the great boards like this one die off before the social media bubble bursts and people are left with no place to return to.

The psychological understanding of dreams and religion/spirituality (which is what this thread is really about) is a tough sell to a lot of people - not many will accept it. But for the handful who do it's a godsend and nothing else gets to the deep core of it all in the same way.

Jonathan Pageau's deepest video - he gets way into the Fall (Original Sin), something we keep coming back around to in here. This video turns my brain into a continuously cycling moebius strip. Totally fractal dude!


I keep encountering the idea throughout esotericism that the vertical axis of the Cross represents timeless time - the eternal now, and the horizontal axis represents passing time, as we know it consciously, with the future in front of us, the past behind, and us running to try to keep up. This cross-indexes perfectly with what Pageau says in this video, that the horizontal axis is made from the wood of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (representing the separation of everything into opposites, which happened as soon as we developed logical, linear, left-brain conscious thinking), and the vertical axis is made from the Tree of Life, which really means Eternal Life.

These 2 ideas (Cross as 2 different conceptions of time, and Cross made from the 2 trees in the Garden) are the same idea really, just different ways of stating it. Normally, dropped into conscious thinking as we usually are, we're racing along on the horizontal axis trying to keep up with life (which is actually standing still, as demonstrated in Alice in Wonderland - you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in one place). But as soon as you switch off the linear logical thinking, you immediately switch to vertical time - there's no future or past (which really don't exist anyway, one is just plans and worries and the other is just memories and regrets - only the eternal present exists).

This makes me think that all the promises of eternal life through Christianity, at least in the ancient esoteric sense, don't refer to literally living on in spirit after the body dies, so much as the ability to enter into the eternal life any time you want to, by entering into the contemplative state. Conscious thinking creates a continuous sense of mortality, of racing time headed inexorably toward death with little or no meaning found along the way. But meditative thinking creates the eternal Now, where no death exists, and time is not racing ahead at all but existing peacefully along with you. Just as Heaven and Hell are actually states of consciousness that exist here and now inside of us all, so is eternity. The Eternal Life to give it a name. But of course, the idea is that if you learn to drop into eternity whenever you want and become a master of it, then your spirit will continue in that state when the body dies.

Esotericism always comes back to this idea - switch off linear oppositional thinking and drop into the eternal Now. This is meditation, but it doesn't have to be done sitting with eyes closed. You do it that way yes, and become familiar with the way it feels, with how to drop into it whenever you want. And then you begin to do it during normal life whenever you think of it. You can do it while walking or mowing the lawn or any time you're doing something repetitive that doesn't require logical thinking. Not so much while talking I think, or maybe that's why meditation masters talk the way they do, in those simple but profound terms, like infinitely wise children. Incidentally, I think this idea explains why to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven you must become like a child - in the way you think.

I think this addresses what we talked about recently - that Original Sin is also salvation. But it's not quite the same thing really. In fact now I'm not quite sure what that means - though it did seem to make sense at the time. Something about conscious thought being our salvation? I think it's the other way around - our salvation is to switch OFF conscious thought - to drop into pure mind -

to stop dividing everything into pairs of opposites and instead to see it all holistically.

Original Sin was when we moved from always existing in the eternal Now (like animals and children do) to running on the treadmill of linear time thanks to conscious thought. The Fall was a fall into linear time - into the hurry and scurry of modern life with all its problems. This is a very similar idea to Sophia (Spirit of Wisdom in Gnosticism) falling into the dark world of matter and becoming trapped in it - forgetting she's a Goddess and living as an ordinary woman (in fact a prostitute - a fallen woman I suppose). The world of pure spirit is the world of the eternal Now. There are no worries and no distractions. But as soon as mind (Soul in a sense - what was originally meant by Nous in ancient Greek) drops into matter and starts living along that horizontal axis of time, the eternal Now disappears and is replaced by anxieties and worries and constant endless distractions. Most people live their lives constantly in that state.

Just made me realize - linear time is a pair of opposites - Future and Past.

... And the Eternal Now is the Transcendent Function - the mean between the extremes that balances them and negates their opposition, that creates wholeness by merging them.

Conscious thought is kind of like social media in a way, or like YouTube. It's filled with endless distractions and temptations, but if you use it wisely it also has subtle little trails that lead toward the good stuff. The real wisdom. But you need to learn to stop following the distractions and instead move toward the Logos - the meaning at the center of it all.

Another of my favorites by Jonathan Pageau - Symbolic vs. Literal meaning of the Bible

Original meaning of the word Symbol - 'A place where 2 things meet, such as 2 rivers flowing together and becoming one'

Similar to:

• Symbiosis - 2 things living together in a mutually beneficial manner.
• Synthesize - SYN is another form of the same prefix meaning "Together"
• Sympathy
• Symphony
• Symmetry

... All words denoting togetherness and harmony.

Prefix Sym/Syn, Root Word Bol(e) or Ballein:

The word root bole originates from Greek bole or ballein which means to throw, send, put. It usually refers to something which is thrown. Hyperbolizing, for instance, is the act of overstating or doing something to an excessive degree. Literally the word comes from Greek Hyperballein which means “to throw over or beyond”.

Now let’s understand the Parabola. Para means beside and bole is to throw. Hence when a cone is intersected by a plane parallel to its side, the emerging symmetrical, open plane curve is a parabola. When you throw an object, the path of the projectile motion follows the curve of the parabola.

Symbol, is a representation of something else. So it essentially is Syn “together” and ballein “to throw”. To throw things together is to symbolize one thing with respect to the other. On a simpler note, ballistic refers to objects in flight under gravity, after being thrown.
source

bol(e) has a meaning of throw or place. In chemistry, it tends to be used for change via throwing together or taking (throwing) apart - metabole=change in greek (in the sense of altering-throwing or turning self into something else), which is the direct source of the term metabolism; anabolism (literally throwing up) and catabolism (literally throwing down) are variations on that idea.
source

Not only can symbols infer putting ideas together, but in order to effect a change - a metamorphosis into a new form. Note in the above quote "Turning self into something else". It would be easy to go all hyperbolic on that and think it relates directly to Transformation of Self, as in Transcendence, but honestly I think that's just a coincidence in this case. It's the ideas that are being transformed, not a person's nature.

A Symbol is an idea coming together with a thing harmonically to represent it.

So symbols, far from being just grafted-on concepts added to physical reality, are actually central to meaning. Without symbols we wouldn't be able to conceptualize at all. We created the symbolic language of math to represent real objects in order to be able to easily count or multiply them, without needing to pile them up and move them around. And we did the same with words and images to represent things so we can discuss or think about them. The symbolic meaning is actually far more central and important, assuming it is accurate, than a mere physical description or what he calls a forensic description.

Note the linguistic similarities alone - Krishna/ Christ. Krishna was born of a virgin and known to be the son of God.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

to stop dividing everything into pairs of opposites and instead to see it all holistically.

Heck yes!! Someone else who shares my interpretation of the tree of knowledge!!

When Adam views all things holistically, he is in Paradise, Eden, Perfection.

When he starts dividing everything into pairs of opposites (good and evil, taking the knowledge of good and evil), he is cast out of Paradise. Because the world as he understands it now contains evil, and is imperfect. The fall is the mental division of duality.

I first discovered this interpretation when I re-read Genesis shortly after reading the Chuang Tzu - that's when all the symbols started clicking together. Later I found out a leader in my own religion had given the same interpretation of the fall.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Just made me realize - linear time is a pair of opposites - Future and Past. [/SIZE][/INDENT]

Yes!! If you want to build on that, think about God's title as "Alpha and the Omega", or "First and Last", it's like your realization: a rejection of opposite paired time. First/Last, Before/After, Past/Future

Also reminds me of a parable from my religion, about the dichotomy of past and future as well as the dichotomy of tyranny and justice:

"There was once a lover who had sighed for long years in separation from his beloved, and wasted in the fire of remoteness. From the rule of love, his heart was empty of patience, and his body weary of his spirit; he reckoned life without her as a mockery, and time consumed him away. How many a day he found no rest in longing for her; how many a night the pain of her kept him from sleep; his body was worn to a sigh, his heart’s wound had turned him to a cry of sorrow. He had given a thousand lives for one taste of the cup of her presence, but it availed him not. The doctors knew no cure for him, and companions avoided his company; yea, physicians have no medicine for one sick of love, unless the favor of the beloved one deliver him.

At last, the tree of his longing yielded the fruit of despair, and the fire of his hope fell to ashes. Then one night he could live no more, and he went out of his house and made for the marketplace. On a sudden, a watchman followed after him. He broke into a run, with the watchman following; then other watchmen came together, and barred every passage to the weary one. And the wretched one cried from his heart, and ran here and there, and moaned to himself: 'Surely this watchman is Izrá’íl, my angel of death, following so fast upon me; or he is a tyrant of men, seeking to harm me.' His feet carried him on, the one bleeding with the arrow of love, and his heart lamented. Then he came to a garden wall, and with untold pain he scaled it, for it proved very high; and forgetting his life, he threw himself down to the garden.

And there he beheld his beloved with a lamp in her hand, searching for a ring she had lost. When the heart-surrendered lover looked on his ravishing love, he drew a great breath and raised up his hands in prayer, crying: 'O God! Give Thou glory to the watchman, and riches and long life. For the watchman was Gabriel, guiding this poor one; or he was Isráfíl, bringing life to this wretched one!'

Indeed, his words were true, for he had found many a secret justice in this seeming tyranny of the watchman, and seen how many a mercy lay hid behind the veil. Out of wrath, the guard had led him who was athirst in love’s desert to the sea of his loved one, and lit up the dark night of absence with the light of reunion. He had driven one who was afar, into the garden of nearness, had guided an ailing soul to the heart’s physician.

Now if the lover could have looked ahead, he would have blessed the watchman at the start, and prayed on his behalf, and he would have seen that tyranny as justice; but since the end was veiled to him, he moaned and made his plaint in the beginning. Yet those who journey in the garden land of knowledge, because they see the end in the beginning, see peace in war and friendliness in anger."

(Izrá’íl is my faith's transliteration of Azrael, and Isráfíl is Raphael, for reference)

I love researching the mystic traditions of the world, the theme of rejecting duality is present in basically all of them. I really need to read more Jung, right now I'm reading a lot of the mysticism that inspired his works.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Krishna and Jesus, are they the same?

Note the linguistic similarities alone - Krishna/ Christ. Krishna was born of a virgin and known to be the son of God.

The way I see the question is something like this:

Two mirrors are set side by side, both reflecting the same sun. If we look at both and say "they are the same", we are correct, for they reflect the same image in their being. If we look at both and say "they are different", we are correct, for they are different vessels reflecting the same image.

Thinking more on Original Sin, I think knowledge is the original sin only because of what becomes known. This is more or less a rehash of what I've already said, but perhaps my ideas on it have become more organized.

Man is guilty of torturing and murdering Christ, but as Christ puts it, we as men knew not what we were doing. It is only by knowing sin and what sinning is that we become capable of truly sinning. That knowledge represents a turning point, a specific milestone in the psychic journey--one where that which becomes known can never become unknown. It is by knowing good and evil that good and evil are created. Our past evil actions are something we become aware of and are judged by, even if we were unaware of their evil or harmful nature before committing those actions.

We become forever stained by the knowledge, and all future evil actions, no matter how small, are truly evil following this point. Because we are human, we cannot simply stop behaving in these ways altogether, and therefore we have forever become the sources of all evil. sin, and wickedness that exists in the world we live in. We all are guilty in this as well. There is not a single person that does not from time to time perform sinful and wicked deeds. We all contribute. This awareness for our own capacity for evil forever places within us doubt, fear, hatred, and mistrust for our fellow human beings.

In other words, we are damned by our own judgments of ourselves and our application of them on toward others. We have all determined ourselves to be guilty as the one real certainty in our lives next to our knowledge that we will all one day die. Not one person is spared this judgment. This, to me, is Original Sin.

That's very well said. I would call it an explanation of why original Sin carries so much guilt in us. As for what it is, I go with what was said in one of the recent videos I put up in here, that eating of the tree was the beginning of separating everything into opposites. Before that we were in constant ignorant bliss, as children or animals.

LabyrinthDreams, hey, nice to hear from you!! Thanks for posting that. What is your religion?

Hold on - this almost seems like too good of a synchronicity, you showing up just now, but LabyrinthDreams, do you know about any good info on Esotericism/Mysticism? Websites or books?



Why did I never do a search before for Esoteric meaning of the Bible??!!

Did it, and the first thing I found was this very interesting web page: Esoteric Meanings Many Voices One Truth

Here's an excerpt from the Genesis section of the Old Testament:

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Subtle means clever. The serpent represents our physical aspect, the sigmoid shape of the human spine.

Eve is represents the mind which comes out of the physical aspect Adam. Eve (mind) gets tempted by the physical part, the flesh or serpent.

There do seem to be some weird inconsistencies, even just in the little bit I posted here. It says the snake represents the physical part, but it just said the same about Adam? Maybe whoever wrote the blog isn't getting it quite right? Or are the inconsistencies in the original source material? I need to look into it. Plus, if the snake represents the spine, wouldn't it include the chakras? And thus be the divine part, or the spiritual part? Curioser and curioser...

So we are talked to by the serpent, we get tempted all the time by our thoughts.

Wait, now it's our thoughts??!! Oh ok, that would work in a way, because the Flesh and the Earth both mean the left brain mind, the Ego. I think maybe I'm trying to take it a little too literally. But it does seem to be written a little too loosely at times - I'd call it sloppy. I suppose that doesn't mean it isn't accurate as to what the original esoteric meanings are, but it does make me suspicious and want to look into it better. I want to try to find the source this came from.

The serpent tempts us to eat the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Good and evil get mixed up and integrated with one another and then we have confusion.We loose our sense of self and life’s purpose.

Ok now this is different from what I've been hearing from I think several different sources, which say that eating of the tree of good and evil represents the separation of things into opposites - the division of the original pure uncorrupted mind into the conscious mind with its nasty little Ego. In fact to me that would seem to work much better here that what was said. Weird.

Ok actually, in a weird way, I suppose "Good and evil get mixed up and integrated with one another and then we have confusion." is a way to say we divide things into opposites. Just a kind of sloppy way

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This is when we are in meditation we have to turn our attention inward and shut down the left brain or our thoughts. ‘Die’ does not mean a physical death but giving ourselves to the vastness of spirit which can be meditated upon.

Genesis 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

God is saying I didn’t say that there was anything wrong with you. Who said you were guilty and not doing what is right? This was the lower self, religions, institutions, churches, society which was putting you down.

The original sin = living in our lower nature.

It has nothing to do with drink and gambling etc. The church is obsessed with the notion of sin and yet it was meant to mean only that we have forgotten our spiritual side and had nothing to do with morality.

Sin is the name of the moon God Ur of the Chaldees. That is why Abraham lived here. Sin was the God of Ur. He was told to move out of the city i.e. not dwell in the emotions anymore. As when you do this you are dwelling in sin.

This obviously draws from the exact same source John St Julien is getting his info from, unless he got it from this same website, but I don't think so.

_________________


THE SPIRIT OF THE SCRIPTURE

This looks like a good one as well, and it's written much more clearly , but doesn't delve specifically into the exact meanings of the metaphors (like the snake as spinal column) – instead it's very common-sense oriented. A quick excerpt, also about Original Sin just to keep things on even footing, comparing apples to apples (though in this case they're pretty different):

The true meaning of sin is to miss the mark. And it has nothing to do with the physical actions. Original sin is a beautiful concept explaining the reason that you seem alienated from God as you dwell in a physical body.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

That's very well said. I would call it an explanation of why original Sin carries so much guilt in us. As for what it is, I go with what was said in one of the recent videos I put up in here, that eating of the tree was the beginning of separating everything into opposites. Before that we were in constant ignorant bliss, as children or animals.

LabyrinthDreams, hey, nice to hear from you!! Thanks for posting that. What is your religion?

I am a Baha'i.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hold on - this almost seems like too good of a synchronicity, you showing up just now, but LabyrinthDreams, do you know about any good info on Esotericism/Mysticism? Websites or books?

Yes... quite a lot, books especially. If you can narrow down topic a bit, I can probably come up with some recommendations...

On the topic of separation into opposites or unification between opposites, my recommended reading would be: The Tao Teh Ching by Lao Tzu, The Chuang Tzu by Chuang Tzu, Conference of the Birds by Attar, Seven Valleys by Baha'u'llah. Maybe also the Emerald Tablet by Hermes Trismegastus.

Of interest to the topic of Jung, I'd recommend one of my favorites, Mohammad Ibn Umail's Book of the Explanation of the Symbols (which might be found listed under it's Arabic name, the Kitab Hall ar-Rumuz). It's one of the earlier alchemical texts, and is a bit dense which might be off-putting to some readers, but it seeks to break down the symbols of mystic alchemy and discuss their inner meanings. I'd recommend the translation by Marie-Louise von Franz (which may be the only English translation out there actually), she was a student of Jung and her commentary on the Kitab Hall ar-Rumuz clearly comes from a Jungian perspective.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Eve is represents the mind which comes out of the physical aspect Adam. Eve (mind) gets tempted by the physical part, the flesh or serpent.

This is actually pretty close to my own religion's writings on the subject:

"Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.
The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil." ('Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions 30)

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Plus, if the snake represents the spine, wouldn't it include the chakras?

It depends... the spine is symbolically tied with the chakras in Eastern traditions, but in Western... not so much. In the West we see Chakras represented as "Seven Heavens", or Attar's "Seven Valleys", or as the Azoth:

http://azothalchemy.org/images/1411134753055.jpg


So in the Azoth, we see the Seven Chakras (or Seven Operations in this case) represented within man, but represented as a seven-pointed star within a circle, rather than a vertical pillar. So in this tradition, these seven stages lose their ties to the spinal column due to how the stages are envisioned and represented artistically.

Then you have other Western energy systems like the Sefirot or the Lataif, which are positioned in such a way that does not align with the spine either.

So in the east, I'd say a spine is probably symbolic of the chakra system. In the west, I'd say the symbolism is not the same for spines.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

My own thoughts on this verse are: Because once you eat from the fruit, you separate the concept of "life" from "death". That, at least, was my reading of the verse after reading the Chuang Tzu.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

This is when we are in meditation we have to turn our attention inward and shut down the left brain or our thoughts. ‘Die’ does not mean a physical death but giving ourselves to the vastness of spirit which can be meditated upon.

This reminds me of the poetry of Rumi: "Die! Die! Die in this love!
If you die in this love,Your soul will be renewed.
Die! Die! Don’t fear the death of that which is known
If you die to the temporal, You will become timeless."

Ah, but I don't think I agree with the blog, I don't think that death is the one spoken of in Genesis 2:17.

This is amazing!! Thank you for such a detailed response. I find myself in agreement with much of what you said (I say much because there's some that I don't have an opinion on yet, because I don't understand it well enough).

I've heard of the Baha'i faith. In fact, if you saw the clips I posted recently with the big muscular guy crying and having temper tantrums on a bed, that's Elliott Hulse and he's a follower of it. Maybe that's why he's so surprisingly wise, for a guy who most assume is nothing but a musclehead and brute.

And yes, what you say about the snake makes sense. It seems we need to learn enough to be able to generate proper meaning from the symbols, until we reach that point there's a lot of confusion. This morning in bed, waking from a dream (that had nothing to do with it as far as I can tell) I had the understanding that the snake is like a spinal column but it crawls entirely on the ground and wriggles through the dirt (the Earth level of consciousness, the Ego, in other words Sin). Man is represented in esotericism as having his feet on the Earth and his head in the Heavens - bridging the space between the two, which represents his ability to, through proper thought, intent and action, reach the higher levels of consciousness (sometimes called Christ Consciousness or Nirvana). A human spine is upright, and doesn't normally rest directly on the ground as the snake does. In the esoteric Biblical symbolism the part of man that is stuck in Earthly groundedness is the feet, which is why Jesus symbolically washed the dirt (the Earth) from people's feet using Water (the 2nd level of higher consciousness, reached through meditation and prayer, and often symbolized by Baptism in water).

So it seems the information on that website is accurate, but perhaps poorly written. Well at least that part does sound accurate. Of course, I suppose I need to revise my idea of what's meant by accurate - it used to be a very left-brain word to me, meaning there must be strong support from scientific or factual sources. Here it means that it relates in a mythical, poetic, or dreamlike way to a powerful inner truth.

Just after writing that I had a series of little epiphanies.

The dream I mentioned actually may have related to the snake. I found myself riding a bike in an empty stream bed, a place I've been visiting in dreams lately. This time though there was no water, except that the clay stream bed was damp (recently I plunged into it, on the bike, and found it was much deeper than it looked - I thought I could easily ride across it without getting wet, but found myself completely submerged and woke there, midway to the other side and not sure if I'd be able to make it across or not).

In last night's dream my bike tires sank just slightly into the damp clay of the stream bed, just enough to make tracks but not bog down. At first I thought this sounds like a big step backwards, from Water level to Earth, but I realized damp clay is Earth/Water mixed (just as when Jesus mixed saliva and dust and applied it to the blind man's eyes to enable him to see). Then I had the additional thought that it also represents Air, because with the water gone the stream bed is now filled with air. That's the third level, the level from which the Divine can reach down from the Fire level above (Heaven, the purely Spiritual realm) and elevate you upward to commune with God or Spirit.

I also had this weird series of thoughts about Trees. I thought well, sometimes the snake isn't on the ground, like when it climbs a tree (as they're often shown doing in Biblical illustrations). That's the way a snake can attain toward the heavens. A tree, like Man, reaches from Earth toward heaven, but it reaches much higher, so symbolically they might be similar to mountains, such as Mt Ararat where the Ark grounded after the Flood, or Mt Sinai where Moses communed with God and received the Commandments. A high and holy place of enlightenment. This must be why the Knowledge of Good and Evil, as well as Eternal Life, are represented by trees. When we eat of that fruit we're partaking of something Holy. The Food of the Gods. And esoterically food is Wisdom.

Anyway, just a dreamlike/poetic idea. Seems like I had one more little revelation I was going to write but I can't think of it now. Writing all that drove it out.

I posted this recently on another thread, but I want it posted right here as well, because it correlates precisely with my dreams about streams and the idea in esotericism of the snake as human spinal column. Wow, that was a mouthful! Here it is:

LeaningKarst, your bringing up problem solving made me remember the various tales of famous people who had solved big problems through dreams. Such as Einstein figuring out some vital part of his theory of Relativity (I believe he dreamed of being on a train going one way and watching things happen on the ground as well as on a train going the other way? Or was that just how he explained it in the book?)

There was also whoever invented the sewing machine, who was struggling with the problem of how to feed the thread through the needle. He woke from a dream, filled with excitement and knowing he had his answer now. He had dreamed of savages carrying spears or javelins, and each had a hole through the end of it near the tip.

In each of these cases an important aspect is that they were already struggling to solve these problems while awake. What happened in the dreams was the right brain sorted through all the various possible solutions and selected one that would work. This parallels experiments done with rats who had electrodes inserted into their brains and ran through an unfamiliar maze. Scientists could watch lights rippling in very specific patterns as they chose turns and later tried to remember them, and they also watched the EEGs as the rats slept. The exact same patterns ran again in NREM sleep and appeared, broken up and interspersed with other patterns if I remember right, in REM. They then ran similar experiments on people (without the electrodes, but there were adhesive sensors on their heads) using an immersive video game about skiing down a mountain. In this case they could ask the subject questions afterward. People reported their dreams were often about walking in snow and sometimes about stepping in already existing footprints in the snow, as if following a trail already made by somebody, or by themselves previously.

Apparently it works sort of like this – when you're facing a novel problem, in dreams your mind will sort through old memories of problems you've solved that are similar. And it'll show you situations very reminiscent of the old ones you had solved, overlaid in some way on the new problem. This is like when you see your bed and dresser in the corner of an airport or in a cave or something - two situations compressed into one.

The rat experiments as well as the human experiments using the video game come from a book called The Mind At Night about brain science specifically concerning sleep and dreams. There's also a Nova program based strongly on the book which is called What Are Dreams? I can no longer find the entire program on YouTube, but last I checked it was available on the iTunes store, plus just now I found a Nova Science Now program with Neil DeGrasse Tyson that looks like it covers much of the same material, it seems to be a followup on the original Nova program, featuring Robert Stickgold, the scientist who ran the video game experiments:



Edit – when they talked about Tetris, and dreaming of Tetris shapes falling into place, it made me realize that's pattern and problem solving together, and that might be exactly what's happening, or something very close anyway, when we dream obsessively about a piece of music. Or the obsessive music thing might be more of an OCD thing, demonstrating that you're too left-brain and have a tendency to get stuck in repetitive thought patterns.

And THAT ties in with another recent thread where I posted a bit of a Jordan Peterson video in which he discussed the difference between left and right hemisphere thinking (actually I think it was still the same thread, about thinking in dreams). He said we think of the left as Linguistic and the right as Creative, but maybe that's not quite right. Maybe the left hemisphere is really more habit-oriented, seeking repetition and familiarity, while the right is creative and seeks novelty. They both use language, but in different ways. This explains to me why words and phrases in my dreams often seem meaningless, like gibberish, but on examination they might reveal something anyway. It's poetic language, creative language, rather than using the words exactly the way we've been taught, in the familiar patterns that become so hidebound and overfamiliar they become almost meaningLESS.

Astrological Enneagram:
I’ve encountered the Enneagram before, but it was more purely psychological, not associated with Astrology as it is here. And even though I’ve always been very skeptical and scoffed about Astrology, my sign (Cancer) really does describe my personality and tendencies to a T. I just don't believe it works to predict the future or for fortune-telling. And I said, a little earlier on this thread, that I don’t care much for Gurdjieff and all his grand theories, but this is part of his 4th Way. Well, this part I believe is very relevant. I think there’s only a few things about his ideas that I dislike. As Ted Nottingham describes the various types you can think of people you know or celebrities, and you know this is dead on, especially when it comes to mixing the types. I seem to have traits of both Lunar and Venusian, and I’ve known people who fit several of the other types he described.

Holy Crap!! Almost a perfect description of me (the combination of both):


This explains SO MUCH!! Why I have the tendency to be so passive, and now I see it not as something to be overcome through sheer willpower, but to be accepted, and to find the good qualities of. Also, why I seem to be so drawn to the more aggressive Warrior types (the Martials or Martians). (It explains DeMonica, for those who know what I'm talking about. )

Here's his entire playlist about the Enneagram if anybody's interested Essence Body Types of the Original Enneagram

* * *

I usually try to keep each post centered on one topic, even if I post multiple videos (I’m sure I’ve violated that several times) but this time I have 2 very different topics and I don’t want to wait till tomorrow to post one, so I’ll throw them both together.

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Esoteric Adam and Eve:
This is the most in-depth glimpse I’ve seen into the esoteric meaning of Genesis. Originally Adam was complete, male and female nature combined in one perfect proto-human (something between an Angel and the first true humans). He existed in a state of grace and purity, until God separated him into male and female (the true beginning of separation into the opposites, even before eating of the tree). The male represents consciousness, and female the unconscious or subconscious. When it says in the Bible that Man shall rule over Woman (however it’s stated) it was never intended as a law concerning actual people, but only as an allegory of the conscious and subconscious mind!

Here’s the article: Adam and Eve: The Story of Human Consciousness.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

And even though I’ve always been very skeptical and scoffed about Astrology, my sign (Cancer) really does describe my personality and tendencies to a T. I just don't believe it works to predict the future or for fortune-telling.

I've always thought the fortune-telling aspect of astrology comes from the Emerald Tablet, or other similar writings, which wrote "As above, so below. As below, above." The meaning of which being that the heavenly or spiritual world and the earthly or material world interact and reflect one another.

But, of course, if you read that phrase as in a very literal way it could be interpreted as saying that the physical heavens (stars and heavenly bodies) have tangible influence on the events of the earth, and extrapolating from that comes the idea that you can figure out what's going on below by looking above.

So ultimately I think it comes from the idea that heaven has influence on the earth, and taking that notion a bit too literally.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Esoteric Adam and Eve:
This is the most in-depth glimpse I’ve seen into the esoteric meaning of Genesis. Originally Adam was complete, male and female nature combined in one perfect proto-human (something between an Angel and the first true humans). He existed in a state of grace and purity, until God separated him into male and female (the true beginning of separation into the opposites, even before eating of the tree). The male represents consciousness, and female the unconscious or subconscious. When it says in the Bible that Man shall rule over Woman (however it’s stated) it was never intended as a law concerning actual people, but only as an allegory of the conscious and subconscious mind!

Here’s the article: Adam and Eve: The Story of Human Consciousness.

This is a really good article, I get the weird feeling I've read it before, but it's publishing date is too late for that to be correct. I think I read something similar in the early 2000's.

Originally Posted by LabyrinthDreams

I've always thought the fortune-telling aspect of astrology comes from the Emerald Tablet, or other similar writings, which wrote "As above, so below. As below, above." The meaning of which being that the heavenly or spiritual world and the earthly or material world interact and reflect one another.

Wow, somehow I never quite connected that up with Astrology. But it makes so much sense when you put it that way. I know my own skecipticism in the past was because I was very left-brain and disbelieved in anything that sounded like magic or religion or spirituality.

Originally Posted by LabyrinthDreams

But, of course, if you read that phrase as in a very literal way it could be interpreted as saying that the physical heavens (stars and heavenly bodies) have tangible influence on the events of the earth, and extrapolating from that comes the idea that you can figure out what's going on below by looking above.

So ultimately I think it comes from the idea that heaven has influence on the earth, and taking that notion a bit too literally.

Bingo!!! Yep, I did take it literally, and built a complete strawman concept of what it meant, that I would then proceed to arrogantly debunk. I'm starting to grow out of that kind of attitude, but some parts are still hanging on. Thanks for helping me find them and kick them out!

Eating of the Tree of Life.
I want to start by learning as much as I can about the beginning - Genesis and early parts of the Old Testament. Ok I know, the second article is about the Tree of Life from Revelation, but that’s neither here nor there, or should I say it’s both? It’s an enantiodromia; an example of something calling up it’s opposite. But they're not opposites, they’re really one and the same - the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end - is the Tree of Life rooted below, in the Earth, or above, in the Heavens? Does it make a difference? And if upside-down, rooted in the heavens above, does it represent the nervous system growing from the base of the brain and branching out from the spine throughout all the flesh of the body?

• Meaning of the Tree of Life
• The Kabbalistic Tree of Life and the Tree in the Book of Revelations Compared

(Be sure to read the comments underneath - always a lot of extra information and interesting perspectives there)

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Here’s a bonus, linking back to the 3 posts I did recently about Satan. Several articles on the same subject, with some powerful insights:

• Lucifer and Satan

And one of the comments from the Lucifer article that really blew my socks off:
(Keep in mind, like Christ, Lucifer is called a Light-Bringer, and was seen to fall from Heaven)

Lucifer is simply the soul that has come into the flesh, this is the Christ, but unrealized it is lucifer/satan
once the Christ consciousness is made manifest within, Lucifer becomes the Christ, the carnal mind becomes the Christ mind.

... Is it true? Are they really one and the same?

The War in Heaven, between the good and bad angels, this simply refers to the war in your psyche/mind between good and bad impulses. Satan is simply the God of bad impulses, the Ego leading you into temptation and sin. He and the rest of his minions (negative archetypes? Addictions/obsessions/bad habits/neuroses/complexes?) were thrown by God out of the higher levels of consciousness and down into the Earth (the Ego, the world of the Flesh and all its temptations and weaknesses) where we must battle against them with all our diligence and faith.

Another excellent Academy of Ideas video. He did his followup to the video I posted recently about the Anxiety Neuroses. I had wondered if my Cptsd/People Pleaser Syndrome constitutes a neurosis and decided it probably doesn't but actually, it turns out that's exactly what it is. Ok, now I know. Actually, I think the word neurosis is considered old-fashioned now, I haven't heard it in use for years. But Jung wrote a good deal about them, and they can be dealt with to some degree of success. Thats enough for me.

Here's an article detailing the esoteric meanings behind the Caine and Abel story. Good good stuff!!

• Esoteric meaning of Caine and Abel

There's also a video linked toward the bottom of the article - I'll just post that here as well:


It's Bill Donahue. Not only a pastor or whatever, but he seems also to be a rather manic standup comic. His over the top delivery might get on some people's nerves though, I find it rather entertaining once I got used to it. I've seen far more boring sermons before for sure! And he really does get the message across, more clearly in some ways than the article did (they cover the same territory).

Ok, I'm thinking this is enough for phase 1 of studying the esoteric meanings of the Bible, now I want to try to find how it connects up with the esoteric meanings in Astrology, the Qaballah, the Tarot, and Alchemy, as well as Buddhism. I probably won't go as deep into all those as I have been into Christianity, I think understanding how they all connect up is enough and then you decide which one you want to go deeper into to get the deep understanding. That'll probably come back around to Christianity for me since I know it better than any of the others and it seems to agree with my temperament pretty well.

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Before I stop with all the Biblical esotericism for now, I want to post this:

• ANNY VOS articles on The Spirit of the Scripture

She gets deep into the numerology or Gematria, as it's called, in the ancient Hebrew language, and extracts a lot of deep meaning from the scripture. She also seems to know the original translations for the Biblical terms, or in many cases anyway. I really like the way she breaks it all down.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Eating of the Tree of Life.
I want to start by learning as much as I can about the beginning - Genesis and early parts of the Old Testament. Ok I know, the second article is about the Tree of Life from Revelation, but that’s neither here nor there, or should I say it’s both? It’s an enantiodromia; an example of something calling up it’s opposite. But they're not opposites, they’re really one and the same - the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end - is the Tree of Life rooted below, in the Earth, or above, in the Heavens? Does it make a difference? And if upside-down, rooted in the heavens above, does it represent the nervous system growing from the base of the brain and branching out from the spine throughout all the flesh of the body?

• Meaning of the Tree of Life
• The Kabbalistic Tree of Life and the Tree in the Book of Revelations Compared

(Be sure to read the comments underneath - always a lot of extra information and interesting perspectives there)

Just happened to read the third heaven of Enoch 2, here is it's description of the Tree of Life:

"I saw the trees in full flower. Their fruits were ripe and pleasant-smelling, with every food in yield and giving off profusely a pleasant fragrance.

In the midst of them was the Tree of Life, at that place were The Lord takes a rest when He goes into Paradise. That tree is indescribable for the pleasantness and fine fragrance, and more beautiful than any other created thing that exists.

From every direction it has an appearance which is gold looking and crimson, and with the form of fire. It covers the whole of Paradise and has something of every orchard tree and of every fruit. Its root is in Paradise at the exit that leads to the earth.

Paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible. Two streams come forth, one a source of honey and milk, and one a source that produces oil and wine and it is divided into four parts. They go round with a quiet movement and they come out into the paradise of Edem, between the corruptible and incorruptible."

A really off-the-cuff breakdown of the symbolism I see here on a first reading:

The fruits of the tree of life are both symbols of provision, as they are food, as well as unity, as they are of every type of tree.

Gold and crimson are both colors that are alchemical symbols of enlightenment.

It's root being in Paradise is certainly something of symbolic note, but I can't work out exactly what at this moment.

The rivers that come from the tree are reminiscent of the Rivers of Heaven in Islam, the four rivers being Pure Water, Honey, Milk, and Wine respectively. In Babi tradition, the symbolism breaks down with:
Honey = Sermons
Milk = Prayer
Wine = Reason
(And Pure Water said to be Divine Revelation, but there's no equivalent pure water river in Enoch 2)

No idea if that symbolism would translate here, though, and no idea what the oil would be.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

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Here’s a bonus, linking back to the 3 posts I did recently about Satan. Several articles on the same subject, with some powerful insights:

• Lucifer and Satan

And one of the comments from the Lucifer article that really blew my socks off:
(Keep in mind, like Christ, Lucifer is called a Light-Bringer, and was seen to fall from Heaven)

... Is it true? Are they really one and the same?

The War in Heaven, between the good and bad angels, this simply refers to the war in your psyche/mind between good and bad impulses. Satan is simply the God of bad impulses, the Ego leading you into temptation and sin. He and the rest of his minions (negative archetypes? Addictions/obsessions/bad habits/neuroses/complexes?) were thrown by God out of the higher levels of consciousness and down into the Earth (the Ego, the world of the Flesh and all its temptations and weaknesses) where we must battle against them with all our diligence and faith.

I believe Satan is the symbolic manifestation of the Animal Self of man. Jesus' encounter and temptation with Satan, in that lens, is his own struggle with his Animal Self during his fast.

Thinking about it now, in the Quranic account Satan's rebellion is specifically the result of him refusing God's order to bow down to Adam... if we consider that story in light of the symbolism of Adam we've discussed earlier, we have an account of Satan, symbolic of the Ego, refusing to bow down to Adam, symbolic of man's spirituality. The story there becomes, as you say, a story of a symbolic inner struggle.

I think favorite version of Satan, though, is in the Yazidi religion, where Satan is also known as Melek Taus, or the Peacock Angel. Like the story in Christianity and Islam, in the Yazidi religion Satan rebels against God and is punished for it, but unlike its other religions the story does not end there. In the Yazidi tale, Satan actually comes to repent and turns back to God, and is rewarded, becoming God's favorite angel. It's basically an extreme version of the prodigal son, and an interesting statement that no one, not even Satan himself, is beyond redemption. This one's my favorite basically because I'm a sucker for a good redemption arc.

Thank you LabyrinthDreams! I really appreciate your input here. I have downloaded all 3 books of Enoch but haven't had a chance to read much yet.

That description/story about Melek Taus, or the Peacock Angel also agrees very closely with this:

Lucifer is simply the soul that has come into the flesh, this is the Christ, but unrealized it is lucifer/satan once the Christ consciousness is made manifest within, Lucifer becomes the Christ, the carnal mind becomes the Christ mind.

I realized after posting it a few days ago, I think Lucifer (the Light Bringer) as described might be the Holy Spirit that descended from Heaven when John the Baptist was baptizing Jesus – it was seen as a shining dove and if I remember right it apparently entered into Jesus' body as the Christ and made him also shine. That was the moment he became truly the Son of God, or was fully realized in it - the moment he achieved ascension through the Water level to the Air level, which I believe is the Christ level, just below Fire, the God level. I'm not sure if I have all this right, I'm still learning this stuff.

Synchronicity - I just started reading one of the Anny Vos articles I posted a link to earlier, and ran into this:

The sixth fruit is the olive, the fruit of the sixth day. The process of the olive proves to be Gethsemane, gat shemen, the oil press. Shemen, oil, is related to the number eight, shmona. This process involves again crushing and pressing, this time of the olives, in order to prepare the shemen, the oil, which is necessary for the anointment of the Messiah who will lead us into the eighth day, during which we will start to ascend out of this material world of the seventh day again (the Messiah being a force inside ourselves in this context). And by going from the descending sixth day to the ascending eighth day through this process of crushing and pressing the olives in order to prepare the oil, it becomes clear that Gethsemane itself stands for this material world of the seventh day, and that all the pain and suffering we encounter in this world through that process are only meant to help us grow in conscious awareness and love.

This is ancient Jewish (Kabbalistic) symbolism, and I believe the Books of Enoch are Jewish, aren't they? This may well relate to the oil in the 4th river.

It comes from this article: Is Suffering Really Necessary?

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Edit – Another of the fruits (these are fruits on one of the Trees - either Life or Knowledge of Good & Evil, but of course in some sense they turn out to be the same tree seen from different sides*) is Grapes, which also get crushed and pressed – to make wine. The crushing and pressing again representing the troubles and turmoil we must experience here in the Egoic world - the suffering that if we contextualize it properly lifts us to the next level, as when Jesus miraculously turned water to wine.

Biblically as I understand it Water is the primordial void or Chaos (Ein Sof), from which God created everything. In Genesis (story of the creation of Consciousness) it represents the deep unconscious - a chaos rife with uncontrolled emotions. God formed the Firmament to separate the upper waters from the lower waters - these would be the subconscious and what I've heard called the Superconscious. I mentioned several times on this thread that the unconscious has 2 parts - first you must descend into the Underworld aspect of it, the frightening part where you encounter the Shadow repeatedly. This would be the chaotic Subconscious. The higher unconscious would be the Kingdom of Heaven I suppose, or the Fire level? The upper realm where God dwells and has his throne. This must be pure water, water untroubled by emotional turbulence.

Or maybe that's wrong - I think the Air level (Christ level) would be the Superconscious. We're able to attain that level through our own efforts, but we can't reach the Fire level until we've attained Air and then God can reach down and touch us or speak to us.

Strange though that this upper realm is symbolized by Water in Genesis but later by Air and Fire. Maybe God further refined the water? Fire I believe means the light of the Sun, which is pure Love, as well as the light of the stars and planets maybe, the heavenly bodies? All existing above air. Or maybe we just perceive it as water, similar to the troubled (impure) water of the subconscious, when we're still in the Ego/Flesh/the World, but when we raise our consciousness we can perceive it as air and then fire (sunlight).

In Hermeticism sunlight is pure love, the love of God beaming down upon the world. I've started reading Eckhardt Tolle's The Power of Now, in which he describes his spiritual awakening, and he said he suffered terrible depression and turmoil one night in bed - the worst of his very troubled life, and then entered into what he perceived as a void that sucked him in. From there after some time he fell asleep and when he woke the sun was shining through his window and he was in a state of pure bliss - he knew then that sunlight is so much more than just visible light - it really is pure and unconditional Love, and somehow because he was so removed from God before he just couldn't sense it that way.

* Apparently we see one side of it as we're leaving the Garden, into the fallen world of suffering (thistles and thorns), where we must learn to deal with suffering and to move toward the higher levels of consciousness, and then as we're re-entering the Garden (Paradise) we see the other side of it, and now it's the Tree of Life - now eternal life (the timeless state of pure Now) is ours.

The suffering of duality is necessary because our original state of Unity is naive - we must learn and grow and for that it's necessary to live in a body (Flesh), through the Ego, and in the World. Only then can we experience free will - Adam and Eve were like Angels, in that they had no free will and experienced no suffering. They are essentially God's automatons. Only as human beings can we live and learn in order to re-attain the level of Unity but this time with the necessary experience to make sense of it as autonomous beings. All of this I've learned in the last few days from the various esoteric websites I've posted links to in here.

• Ein-sof from Sanford Drob’s New Kabbalah website

A couple of excerpts (note similarities with an esoteric reading of the Bible):

Ein-Sof, the Infinite God, has no static, definable form. Instead, the Kabbalists conceive God, the world and humanity as evolving together through, and thus embodying, a number of distinct stages and aspects, with later stages opposing, but at the same time encompassing, earlier ones. The Kabbalist's God is both perfectly simple and infinitely complex, nothing and everything, hidden and revealed, reality and illusion, creator of man and created by man,. As Ein-Sof evolves it is progressively revealed as "nothing whatsoever" (Ayin), the totality of being, the Infinite Will (Ratzon) , Thought and Wisdom, the embodiment of all value and significance (the Sefirot), the wedding of male and female, and ultimately the union of all contradictions. Ein-Sof is both the totality of this dialectic and each of the points along the way. Ein-Sof must be constantly redefined, as by its very nature, it is in a constant process of self-creation and redefinition.

This self-creation is actually embodied and perfected in the creativity of humanity, who through practical, ethical, intellectual and spiritual activities, strives to redeem and perfect a chaotic, contradictory and imperfect world.

Ein-sof provides a rational/spiritual answer to the questions “Why is there anything at all?" and "What is the meaning of human life?" Ein-sof begets a world so that He, as the source of all meaning and value, can come to know Himself, and in order for His values, which in Him exist only in the abstract, can become fully actualized in humanity. Ein-sof is both the fullness of being and absolute nothingness, but is not complete in its essence until He is made real through the spiritualizing and redemptive activity of mankind. Ein-sof is mirrored in the heart and soul of man, but, more importantly, He is actualized in man’s deeds.

Ein-sof is discussed in relation to Brahman in Hinduism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism, the One and the Good in Plato and Plotinus, the Absolute in Hegel, and the unconscious in Freud and Jung, in Kabbalistic Metaphors. (That's a book by Sanford Drob)

…And I suppose in Genesis he is the chaotic Waters that existed In the Beginning, as well as the Word (thought, consciousness).

So basically, in Kabbalah, God begins as the void, emanates several levels and the 10 Sephirot (spheres) seen on the Tree of Life diagram, working down level by level until it reaches the bottom, the level of the material world. This is where we exist, and must then work our way up through spiritual effort to strive toward the top again - the Path of Return. Below is the diagram of the kabbalistic Tree of Life:

Ein Sof exists at the top, above Keter (Crown). In some sense the Crown is the Crown Chakra, and above it is pure Spirit (God).

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Here's an article that really ties in strongly to the above: What if the purpose of Creation is the Evolution of God? by Anny Vos

I should mention, I added quite a bit to yesterday's entry - more than half of it is new (made just this morning in fact). You might want to scroll up and check everything under the line in that post if you read it yesterday. What I wrote there relates quite strongly to today's post.

Very different from what I normally post in here. But Herzog definitely does touch on the ecstatic base of Being in his films. I've never heard his work described so well before, this made me understand things about it that I could half-sense before, just from seeing a few of them, but was utterly unable to articulate. The filmmaker, the poet, artists of all kinds can create these visionary experiences if they concentrate on poetic Truth rather than what he calls "the accountant's truth."