Thread: Dream and Fantasy Morals

Originally Posted by splodeymissile

The problem I have with this is that our own consciousness and sentience is very much tied to the physical structure of our brain. Chop a part off and a part of us goes. DCs don't have a brain in terms of physical structure and, at best, only represent an aspect of our consciousness. Because of this, I can't see them having sentience or indeed any sense of a complete being. They're basically us, just slightly fragmented and wearing interesting clothes.

I don't see how common origin has any relation to the question of morality. We assume because we are the egos that get to experience waking life and dreaming life that we are primary, that somehow we make up the entirety of the human form in which we inhabit. Perhaps there is more to our being that we perceive. Perhaps the human brain has the ability to create many different egos. We know that this is in part true, at least in the dream world. Any DC can become lucid and attain lucid powers. We don't really know enough about the mind to say that our waking minds completely encompass our brain's capacities, and that other egos aren't floating around somewhere down the rabbit's hole.

I agree, but I don't think this is a good comparison. For one, AIs and potential aliens can be relatively easily tested for intelligence. Secondly, they're not likely to fade from existence, as soon as we open our eyes, unlike DCs, who are inevitably going to "die" by our hand. Finally, even if they do possess sentience, how do we know that the moral rules we follow in the waking world remotely apply in our dreams? For all we know, doing a kindness to a DC could feel like the worst torture. Logic is out to lunch. Even if AIs and aliens have they're own different moral codes, they at least follow the laws of the universe. What actually is a moral action in the dream world, especially since it all fades when we wake?

We assume that the dream world disappears when we wake up, but that assumption may not be correct. The dream world is a realm of infinite creativity, and we can access that creativity even in the waking world through our thoughts and imagination. So the dream world, in some sense, is still functioning. As the DCs may be. And you can also turn this question of fading from existence on its head. Don't we also fade from existence when we fall into a deep dreamless sleep? And can't we also be said to fade from the dream world whenever we wake up?

As for morality, well I think the best test would be to ask DCs themselves whether they feel pain, like being raped, having their faces beaten in, or having their stuff stolen. After all, morality always arises from a moral consensus arrived at through the interactions of several different individuals. And, if you want to go deeper, you can make them lucid and then ask them whether they are a separate entity from yourself or the same, and want their rights to be respected. Or, again to turn this around, what would you say about morality in the dream world if one of your DCs became lucid, stripped you of your powers and raped and tortured you every night, whether you were lucid or not, until you are absolutely terrified of falling asleep?

I think the point I want to get across is that we don't know enough about the relationship between our dreams, our waking life, our mind and our brain to make a valid conclusion about the sentience of DCs one way or the other. So shouldn't we err on the side of sentience?

BTW the term sentience refers to being able to feel pain. So if DCs are able to feel pain, the requirement for sentiency is fulfilled.

Originally Posted by mzungu

BTW the term sentience refers to being able to feel pain.

It does?

Originally Posted by Sageous

It does?

Yes Sageous. From the wiki:

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.[1] Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia"). In Eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires respect and care. The concept is central to the philosophy of animal rights, because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, and thus is held to confer certain rights.

If we are to answer the question of whether DCs deserve moral consideration, the first thing we must establish is whether DCs can suffer. If they can suffer then the argument for consideration grows stronger. Sentience often gets conflated with the word intelligence, but at its root it only refers to the ability to suffer. The intelligence of DCs is another question... but I would say that they exhibit sufficient intelligence for us to consider then an intelligence similar to our own.

If we are to answer the question of whether DCs deserve moral consideration, the first thing we must establish is whether DCs can suffer. If they can suffer then the argument for consideration grows stronger. Sentience often gets conflated with the word intelligence, but at its root it only refers to the ability to suffer. The intelligence of DCs is another question... but I would say that they exhibit sufficient intelligence for us to consider then an intelligence similar to our own.

Bold 1: No. The capacity to suffer pain is a branch of the whole concept, but not the whole tree. If I stripped you of all pain receptors and removed the capacity for emotional pain, you would still be sentient because you can experience stuff like light, sound and other emotions.

Bold 2: Why? How do you know they're not putting on a convincing show?