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Wow. I just learned something here today. Thank you 'Original poster' That actually does sound like some really good advice. Perhaps what people should do is maintain a balance of clinging onto life but also ponder about death and understand that life is only temporary so instead of wasting your time worrying about things like you said we should just go for it.
Because commiting to living requires the most strength. Suicide is a cop out!
I would agree that suicide is a cop out but its only a cop out if the problem thats making you do it is something that can be solved. As for me I wouldn't commit suicide unless it is something extremely horrible, like finding out I have a horrible disease and will die a slow and painful death. If that were the case I would probably do itQuote:
Originally Posted by CheckeredHeart
There is to many cool things to see in life. I am all for life, because it is interesting. Why do anything, if it isn't interesting to you in some way? Me, I think of all the insane technology and knowledge we will have in the future, like space travel, robotic bodies, better than real life virtual reality, discovery of other dimensions, understanding of the universe. That stuff is all really cool and I want to see it. The only way I will see it is if I am alive, so I want to live.
Well firstly I have no reason to commit suicide; I have a desire to keep on living which I'm sure can be explained by what loads of other people have posted. A slight fear of death also comes from the process of dying itself (otherwise I don't fear it - after all, I've been not-alive for several billion years before coming here). In addition, however, I wouldn't commit suicide because of the effect it has on those around me.
I think if I had a generally unhappy life and there was a way of suicide where I could just suddenly be dead without having to do any suicide methods, the only thing stopping me would be the biological instinct to live and the desire not to make others around me miserable.
Everyone can make their own choices; that's the beauty of free will. Those choices include suicide. You just have to be willing to live with the consequences; every action has them, whether they be positive or negative.
No one knows for sure what happens after death, but I believe in a spiritual life, and that suicide is just a part of the lessons we, as spiritual beings, need to learn about at one point or another (assuming reincarnation is a reality). I personally wouldn't choose it because of how it would affect my loved ones. Yes, they'd eventually be alright, but I just can't bear to think of the pain it would cause them if I ended my life. If I died in an accident, at least they wouldn't have to wonder about the suicidal "signs" they missed, or whether or not they could have helped me.
When the costs of living exceed the benefits of living; then yes, suicide is definitely an option. For example: living in constant, excruciating pain.
It's simple economics, essentially.
I think this thread might actually be dangerous to some people who might have real suicidal tendencies. Especially statements like this:
Quote:
But conversely, if you feel unhappy then wouldn't it feel better not to exist? And therefore shouldn't unhappiness be ended?
I think it's more dangerous to be afraid to address suicide as a society, forcing those tendencies and questions to fester in the dark. I am merely bringing to the surface questions which people with suicidal tendencies are already asking and seeking the answer to.
Hmmm.... :PQuote:
Originally Posted by KristaNicole07
Not to say the consequences (repercussions, results, etc.) are necessarily good or bad, there's really no way for us to tell how that affects you after death. All anyone can see is the immediate aftermath the suicide victim leaves behind here. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction." There's no escaping consequence; it exists in all situations involving choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan
But I think I may be going a little off-topic. Just looking at it from an "after death" perspective, I suppose. Like I said before, everyone has the choice available to them, and everyone has the right to choose whether or not they kill themselves. I personally wouldn't be able to do it.
Oh, don't mind me, I wasn't making any profound point, just a stupid pun. It didn't occur to me until after I posted that by "live with the consequences" you could mean "live [in the next life/form/stage/whatever] with the consequences." Little more like dying with the consequences, I guess :P
Ha! I get it now. I was just so wrapped up in the topic, I didn't even catch the pun. XD
I'm not sure if I believe in an afterlife. It would certainly make suicide more appealing if you did not have an afterlife to deal with. Then the only consequence is giving up whatever you could have done with your life besides end it, which isn't worse than nothing. Nothing is just that, and once it comes everything becomes meaningless. Whether or not you die sooner purposefully or later naturally, you die the same way. And you're going to die either way, not killing yourself does not make you immortal.
However, suicide is not surrender. It's the opposite. Suicide is resistance and rebellion. This is why I advocate living suicidally without actually committing suicide. That does not mean walking in front of traffic or whatever. It simply means to stop clinging to all the things we cling to because we're striving to reduce suffering. Many of us feel suicidal because we compare ourselves to others and realize how shitty our lives are compared to others, or because our expectations are being disappointed. By living suicidally, and surrendering completely, you no longer need to strive to be happy, or better off then others. You do not need to expect anything, anymore. Expectations wash away. "I want" is removed from "I want happiness" and you are left with happiness.
To live suicidally means nothing more than understanding some day you will kick the bucket and everything you want will become meaningless. Everything you lack will become meaningless. All your expectations will become meaningless. This is inevitable, so why not have it now?
When you realize you're dreaming, you can either try to wake up or you can do whatever the fuck you want and savor your freedom until you wake up. Either way, the moment you realize it's just a dream the shackles disappear. Life is just a much longer dream. When you realize it for what it is, you liberate yourself. And what is life? Something that ends. What do you take from a dream when you wake from it? That is what you will take from life. Nothing more.
I get what you're saying here, but I guess I wouldn't call it "living suicidally", I'd call it finding inner peace, or enlightenment. When I think of the phrase "living suicidally", I think of exactly the thing you said it's not: Jumping into traffic, or ODing on hard drugs or alcohol. But I guess everyone sees things differently, yes? Either way, I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you that letting go of wants and trying not to compare your life with anyone else's is important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Poster
I wouldn't say suicide is the opposite of giving up, however. I'm of the opinion that the majority of suicides are caused by the inability to cope with life or a tough life situation. Which is fine and dandy, everyone has free will to do whatever they so please. But to me, that's giving up, and not something I am interested in doing, though I'd be lying if I said it never crossed my mind. I just always come back to the same answer: No. I'm not going to go out that way. Why? Because I don't want to give up. I want to see what life has to offer me yet. And when I die of whatever it is I die of, I know it will be the end. I don't want to rush that. Just my personal opinion.
I understand that way I chose to phrase things gives off some unintentional implications.
There's a part in House of Leaves where a character commits suicide and it is argued that suicide is not surrender, it's the opposite. It's the ultimate form of resistance. This chapter argues it far better than I can, but to paraphrase as best I can when you choose suicide you're trying to maintain control over an uncontrollable situation. You literally feel as if there's only one way to can still prove you have control over your life, by ending it. Suicide is the ultimate affirmation of the ego.
However the reason I phrased what you would call living with inner peace and living suicidally is because inner peace creates an implication that causes the paradox of "seeking enlightenment." Understand this enlightenment as a suicide of the need to control things (rather than a suicide of the body, which is the ultimate) can help someone understand that this inner peace is not discovered and utilized by the ego. It's simply there behind all that clinging.
As someone who has been through very dark times and contemplated suicide many times, I still don't see it as morally 'wrong' or have an argument against it in general, but do think it is something not to be taken lightly.
At one particularly low point, I remember my only comfort was thinking of what death and oblivion would be like. I went as far as to plan out my suicide, and gave myself a time frame. If in one month's time, anything else awful happened to me, or if I became more depressed and still wanted to commit suicide, I would do it. Obviously, I made it through that month and had changed my mind by the end of it. Even then, I wasn't happy. I was still depressed, poor, and directionless, but I was existing and wasn't ready to trade that in for oblivion yet (or whatever afterlife there may be, which I probably wouldn't have fared too well in at the time). Suicide would always be there as an option, but I couldn't get my life back if I took it. I didn't fear death, but as long as my life was bearable, I saw no harm in postponing suicide. At this point, I still didn't really believe in the value of my life. I told my friends that I didn't plan to live to the age of 30.
Eventually, I found meaning and value in my life. Not because of a moral code, or happiness, but because I gave it meaning and value. Now, if I go through difficult times and suicide looks appealing again, I know that I have been there before, and was eventually happy that I did not take my life. I crave experience. Whether the experience is good or bad, whether I am happy or depressed, at least I am still in existence, because in the end, that is really all I have.
If someone was contemplating suicide, I would tell them to set a time limit. Wait a year, but during that year, try to find meaning in your life and seek help. If someone can go an entire year wanting to end their life every minute, and found their existence to be completely worthless, then there is probably not much anyone can do to help them. Chances are, most people will traverse the year and come out relieved they didn't end their life. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying saying suicide is a good solution or advocating it. I'm pointing out that many suicides are impulsive and emotional, and that with time, the reason someone want's to commit suicide may pass.)
OP, I agree with your sentiments about 'living suicidally' I didn't choose life because I feared death or an afterlife, felt sorry for my loved ones, or wanted to seek happiness. I don't have to be here, I choose to be alive. All I have is my own existence, so if I not living the life I want, I am never afraid to sever all ties and create the life I want.
I don't believe it should be taken lightly either. It's the most serious question there is. Life's value and meaning is valuable and meaningful because we create it. We choose to have it, we live on our terms, knowing it's our choice. When we choose to expect or dream of something better it's because those dreams give us meaning right now. I want something. I have a choice, I can pursue the hope or kill it. Expectations are not forced upon me. They are mine to control. My impulses are not gone, but impulses don't make you a slave, refusing responsibility for your life does. The most important choice in life is suicide, everything else is what we hope for and what we live through.
OP, I understand what you're saying now. The first part of your reply sounded like you were talking about physical suicide and how it is a representation of the conquering of a previously thought uncontrollable situation. The second part sounds like you're talking about a metaphorical suicide, the killing of the clinging onto ideals, as opposed to a physical one. Is that what you're saying?
Right.
I believe people commit suicide because A. They are trapped in a fatalistic, victim mentality and cannot take responsibility for their lives and B. They cling to the need to control their lives but feel like they cannot so they attempt to control it the only way they still feel they can, by ending it.
I believe inner peace comes from knowing you can end it, and sure enough it will end anyways, and because of that you actually are responsible for your life and are not a victim. Thinking that being alive is not an optional situation, you are applying a belief in objective meaning, meaning which is forced upon you and will exist whether or not you desire differently.
See when you believe something is important because it's important and not because you make it important yourself, you gain the mentality that it is affecting you, and you are not holding the reigns. When you remember that you give life every ounce of importance it has and no amount of importance or meaning exists that isn't in your control, then you gain control over your own happiness and are no longer one of life's victims.
Some people commit suicide because they have chemical imbalances that make them severely depressed and they seen no way out. There are psychiatric medications that can bring them completely out of that. If you have a major deficiency of serotonin, for example, no type of thought or self-examination is going to bring you out of the depression. That is why I majorly big time encourage all suicidal people to see psychiatrists. There really are ways out. Sometimes it takes trying different medications, but something will work. This situation happened to me earlier in life. If the situation is psychological, a psychiatrist should be able to determine that and refer the patient to a psychologist. Sometimes a person is just going through a horrific time because of an awful event that happened, and time eventually heals that although the depression can be so bad that it seems like it will never just go away. In those situations, it will. These points apply to anxiety also.
"Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." - Unknown
Medication is definitely one step a person can take to become responsible for their own happiness.
This thread is mostly about the philosophy of suicide, but medication can be an aid. I think medication is supplemental to the attitude that you are in charge of your own happiness. The world doesn't make you happy or unhappy, you do. A chemical imbalance can be an excuse to play the victim role, but there are actions available if you take responsibility. The problem is after people identify with their depression, it feels painful to realize you can let it go.
Frankly I believe exercise and a better diet can solve chemical imbalances, medication is not necessary but it can serve to make yourself more willing to change your lifestyle. I advise using medication to get out of the pit, then apply changes to your habits to stay out of it.
Treating my hypoglycemia, which includes eating the right kinds of grains and getting good aerobic exercise, is what has kept me out of the psychiatrist's office since 1991, except for one time when I went for some short term ADD medicine.
I don't commit suicide because I am not yet done living. Negativity is as worth experiencing as anything else is. I've experienced quite a range of emotions and situations, both positive and negative. However, I still want to experience more. Suicide is a means of ending the experience, as far as I am able to tell right now. Suicide, in my case, is therefore counterproductive.
Everyone longs to be dissolved into Unity...This body holding me reminding me that I am not alone...
People might say they have a reason not to kill themselves..but that reason arose from something...People might say they would never kill themselves, and again, a deconstructable reason arose in order to establish that sentiment.
The question, Why not commit suicide, suggests that the questioner thinks it is permissible, perhaps advantageous. However, as the answerer to the question, it puts me at a distinct disadvantage because I am forced to defend a supposed ideal.
That said...
In order to "feel at home" in this world, one must connect. If connection is not working for a person, certain measures are usually taken.
My argument would be that a person who feels the need to die is experiencing something natural. The ego of a person must be "killed" in order to become one with themselves. I just think some people externalize that to the point they feel that their body must die for them...There is blockage there, and it can drive a person insane...
Why not commit suicide?
Because you dont know everything...you only have this moment...If people really felt and realized that, I dont think they would want to die anymore...wanting is a non-issue when all you have is the present moment...