Thread: Start with Nothing

I was just asking out of curiosity, and also because it might clarify a little.

Also, I am 99% sure that is going to confuse Darkmatters whole lot more now on where you stand.

Ok, let me try this a different way...

What do you think reality actually is, if it's not what it seems? Do you think it's completely different from what we see, like a Matrix illusion (I don't mean to imply that you literally believe the Matrix is real, obviously, just using it as an illustration). Or do you think that maybe things are just slightly different from what they seem to be?

Or, are you only saying "we can't prove it" and that's as far as it goes?

Cause if that's all you're saying, then I'm right there with you!! We definitely can't prove it.

But until someone suggests a more plausible possibility than that what we see and feel is actually exactly what's real, then why would I or anyone entertain the idea? Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING agrees that what we perceive as reality is real... all of history, all of science, all human experience that I've ever had access to first or secondhand. If it's an illusion, then its such a damn good one that I for one am happy to live in it without asking pointless questions about it until something makes that necessary or even suggests that it's a good idea. And yes, of course I understand that everything i just mentioned comes to me only filtered through my own senses, thus is subjective, but it's all in such amazing accordance in every minute detail that if something were able to create such an amazing illusion and place me in it then that something is for all intents and purposes a god and has created an illusion so powerful and pervasive that it's pointless to not just call it a reality.

And I suppose that's my main point - How substantial would an illusion have to become before you just call it a reality?

Einstein may have said that reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - but he obviously agreed with me that for all intents and purposes it's our reality, because he devoted his life to studying it.


** EDIT

.. Or are you maybe suggesting a religious or spiritual notion, like the Buddhist idea that life is essentially a dream? Come to think of it, not long ago I was trying very hard to believe that, and hoping it would help me with my efforts at lucid dreaming. Not sure when I gave up on it? I seem to have become a rational materialist again.


** 2ND EDIT

It's true that you can say, in a philosophical sense, that we have (and can have) no 'proof' of the existence of reality - although of course what proof there is is good enough to stand up in any court. But Xaq it's funny that you said I have "blind faith". Because actually I'm not blind, and sight is one of the senses I use to collect evidence. I have 5 senses, and they all agree on every count... objects are really there and amazingly persistent in their reality. Just now I picked up a wooden clothespin laying here beside my keyboard. It looks like a clothespin, feels like one, tastes like one, I can even faintly smell the wood. It makes the kind of sound it should when I rub a finger across it next to my ear. So, my faith is not only not blind, it's also not deaf nor lacking in any other sensory input. You on the other hand have not the slightest hint of any evidence that reality does not exist. All you have is a faint sliver of doubt that it does.

And there is evidence. At one point you said there's no evidence for reality. On the contrary, EVERYTHING is evidence! Every material object that passes all the tests I or anyone puts them to. They behave exactly the way they would if they were actually real! You're familiar with the term "overwhelming preponderance of evidence".. well, what we have here is well beyond that - it's 100% evidence. Everything adds to the pile of evidence. The entire universe and every object in it - including our bodies (which are objects).

So it becomes obvious that the one with blind faith is you.

But it's pretty obvious you don't actually have any such faith. Your 'belief' that reality is only an illusion is really no more than philosophical posturing. That's clear, because you interact with this reality all the time as if it were real. You make masks. Why would you go to all the trouble of making illusory masks from illusory materials if you believed none of it was real? You obviously agree with me that "if it's an illusion it's good enough to live in".

I know you'll respond to this - typing on the illusion of a keyboard on the illusory table before your illusory body. The very fact that you do says you actually on some level believe it's all real, or at least real enough. And you seem to believe I'm real enough to continue responding to me.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Ok, let me try this a different way...

What do you think reality actually is, if it's not what it seems?

It is "something" that can never be elaborately explained or proven. "What we think reality is," is by nature a projection or symbol of reality; never the pure experience itself, although the pure experience cannot exclude that.

But until someone suggests a more plausible possibility than that what we see and feel is actually exactly what's real, then why would I or anyone entertain the idea? Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING agrees that what we perceive as reality is real...

There you go. It is all real on some level; no different than saying it is all true on some level. Somebody may suggest a more plausible possibility such as the scientific method, given the circumstance where that would be the most useful. But hopefully you can see it simply cannot wrap around all aspects of reality, and sometimes such methods are hindrance. There isn't a method to reality. An important distinction though: although perception is real, it is not the fundamental or absolute reality.

And yes, of course I understand that everything i just mentioned comes to me only filtered through my own senses, thus is subjective,

Again, subjectivity is not merely some "filter" you persistently mention. That is a crippled conception (it has probably made this all harder to understand). Your depiction can be seen as an objective conclusion. The subjective is really the means for any conceivable object to exist - you mentioned our bodies as objects, yes, but including your senses and what is sensed, and including your thoughts as well.

We've been arguing about what is most fundamental, and that is where we begin to discuss and discard things that are unreal and illusory. It is very spiritual but can also be philosophical; depends on your orientation.

In a limited sense, many people think the material world is fundamental. Is it, then?

Ok, well it's obvious we'll never see eye to eye on this, and I won't keep pestering you about it. Neither side is going to budge in terms of either beliefs or even being able to understand the other's beliefs. Further discussion would be counter-productive and could cause heated argument, which I see no need for. So I respectfully detach myself from this conversation.

Adios gentlemen.

Well I actually thought you were onto something new, compared to your previous posts, saying things like "...you said there's no evidence for reality. On the contrary, EVERYTHING is evidence!".

This might be closer to the point than you think...