Thread: God As An Enemy

Disclaimer: I am posting this here as a matter of scholarly interest. The ideas contained within do not represent my actually opions, they are merely thoughts.

One of the biggest problems that Christian philosophers have faced over the years is, "the problem of evil". "The problem of evil" is the question that if God is all powerful and all good then why does evil exist in the world? There have been a few explanation for this over the years but non so widely held and spread as that of St. Augustine. Augustine claims that evil exists because we as humans choose to do evil. But why would God allow us this choice? Augustine claims that God gives us freewill, that is the will to choose between good and evil. God does this not because he wants us to do evil things but because a "good" act is not "good" if it is forced. We must freely choose to do good inorder for our action to be good. Augustine claims that inorder for us to be able to choose good we must lso be presented with the option of evil...

So it would seem from St. Augustine's that God is in fact all good but...

From the story of Adam and Eve several interesting points arise. Firstly that God punished Amad and Eve for eating from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. From here we can ask some questions about the "goodness" of God. Firstly we must assume that because Adam and Eve were punished they had done some evil. However, if before bitting into the apple they could not distingusion between good and evil how could they know they were commiting sin? Did God in fact give us the choice of freewill and deny us the choice of knowledge over what was good and evil? if so why? But further more an choice made out of ignorance is not a good choice and is not entirely freewill.

Therefore God actually restricted our knowledge about choices we were to make... and therefore tried to interfer with our freewill.

Think about it? Do you really have freewill? Take this example: You choose to hit a poolball... but what decides which way it goes? how far it goes? Physics/reality/God? You are not in control of reality but merely a pupet who cannot see his strings. It is like trapping a person in a cage and saying... "you are free". the person can do whatever they like in the cage, but are they free?

Supralapsarianism ?

Supralapsarians suggests that God allowed for the fall of man in order for salvation to be possible... (as far as I understand it, correct me if I am wrong). But doesn't this created need for salvation put more power onto God... God created the need for salvation? well anymore thoughts about this topic would be interesting, please elabortate more.

I think I will finally say this.

God is not on your side.

God will not automatically give you ultimate happiness. You must do everything for yourself. You shouldn't use training wheels your whole life or it would be pointless to try to learn to take them off if they never do. Life is not served on a silver platter. You must make things happen. That was the point of free will. Also the fact that God did not want you to have complete free will because you could take away the free will of others. That is why there are limits. If you had complete free wil over everything you would interfere with free will of others. God said that he would give us free will over ourselves. That is also why physics were set. It is so people wouldn't go crazy with their free will like try to jump into the moon. Is someone else controlling your body? If so then you have lost the free will God promised you.

For every choice you make with free will another free will will make a choice off of your choice. That is called a reaction. When you decide to hit a ball the will of physics decides where it will go. Its choice will vary on how hard and at what angle you hit the ball at. Where you hit the ball gives physics the choice to put it where it wants. The ball could blast through a window and the smash through a bunch of walls and stop moving a few miles away, but it could choose to move a few feet in the same hit. Most likely physics will choose to move it a few feet.

God never said when he would give free will. He just promised he would. Maybe Adam and Eve just lucked out in the beginning. I think it would be hard to start a world and God may not have been sure when he wanted to implement free will.

There is also the fact that God gave Adam and Eve two commandments. The first was to reproduce and the second was to not eat the fruit in the center of the Garden of Eden. They had the choice to obey those commandments or not. I think that implies free will right there. God even told them that they would see with open eyes if they ate the fruit so Adam and Eve might have already known that they would be learning something new if they ate the fruit. They were given the information and they finally decided to eat the fruit. The snake influenced Eve to eat the fruit. It didn't force her. She had the choice to not to eat the fruit, but she chose to. Adam also had the choice to not eat the fruit, but he chose to as well so he could be with Eve. God also had the free will to kick them both out of Eden and he chose to. The balance was kept.

god gave them the free will to CHOOSE to eat the fruit, and he gave them a commandment not to eat the fruit. adam and eve probably knew of commands, and probably knew that not obeying commands wasnt good. they may not have known sin, but they probably knew "not good", such as their consience telling them

Here's a good one, Adam and Eve didn't exist. Otherwise our species would've been killed off long ago by disease because of lack of genetic variation.

Originally posted by bradybaker
Here's a good one, Adam and Eve didn't exist. Otherwise our species would've been killed off long ago by disease because of lack of genetic variation.

Try and prove it. You don't know what diseases were there when the earth was created. You don't know how well a humans immune system was back then.

Looking at genetic diversity in humans today proves that Adam and Eve didn't exist. At leat not in the bibical sense.

Originally posted by bradybaker
Looking at genetic diversity in humans today proves that Adam and Eve didn't exist. At leat not in the bibical sense.

How do you know how long it has been since Adam and Eve? People adapt and change to their habitats. Now what is that concept called?

Originally posted by dreamer3
god gave them the free will to CHOOSE to eat the fruit, and he gave them a commandment not to eat the fruit. adam and eve probably knew of commands, and probably knew that not obeying commands wasnt good. they may not have known sin, but they probably knew \"not good\", such as their consience telling them

How would they know what was good and evil before they ate from the tree? they couldn't have.. it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... so God wanted them to ignorantly follow a commandment?? sounds like a pretty tyranical thing to do...

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker

Here's a good one, Adam and Eve didn't exist. Otherwise our species would've been killed off long ago by disease because of lack of genetic variation.

Try and prove it. You don't know what diseases were there when the earth was created. You don't know how well a humans immune system was back then.[/b]

Try to prove they did exist...

Originally posted by Yume

God said that he would give us free will over ourselves. Is someone else controlling your body? If so then you have lost the free will God promised you.

God never said when he would give free will. He just promised he would.

They had the choice to obey those commandments or not. I think that implies free will right there.

1st. He said he would give us power over ourselves?? I can't do anything I want with my body... therefore I dont have conplete power over myself... His physics or reality control my body to a degree and so he has taken away the freedom he promised.

2nd. God never said he would give us free will he just promised he would?? OK...... now that might need revision...

3rd. Sure they had a choice... but they couldn't make a choice based off of good and evil because they had no knowledge of those concepts (until they had eaten the fruit). Therefore they were punished for doing evil even though they didn't know they were doing it?? God punishes those who go against him and doesn't want people to be able to think for themselves??

Originally posted by tboothby+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tboothby)</div>

Originally posted by Yume@
<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker

Here's a good one, Adam and Eve didn't exist. Otherwise our species would've been killed off long ago by disease because of lack of genetic variation.

Try and prove it. You don't know what diseases were there when the earth was created. You don't know how well a humans immune system was back then.

Try to prove they did exist...[/b]

I have the Five Books of Moses to do that. There is evidence that it is possible. It is also the most likely out of the other explainations of how the world was created.

Try and dissprove that.

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

How do you know how long it has been since Adam and Eve? People adapt and change to their habitats. Now what is that concept called?[/b]

If you knew anything about evolution and the process of natural selection you would know that it requires a base of genetic diversity to happen. No genetic diversity = no evolution. Two humans is not genetic diversity.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume
I have the Five Books of Moses to do that. There is evidence that it is possible. It is also the most likely out of the other explainations of how the world was created.

I typed up that explanation of how we exist for you.

Originally posted by tboothby+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tboothby)</div>

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)

God said that he would give us free will over ourselves. Is someone else controlling your body? If so then you have lost the free will God promised you.

God never said when he would give free will. He just promised he would.

They had the choice to obey those commandments or not. I think that implies free will right there.[/b]

1st. He said he would give us power over ourselves?? I can't do anything I want with my body... therefore I dont have conplete power over myself... His physics or reality control my body to a degree and so he has taken away the freedom he promised.

2nd. God never said he would give us free will he just promised he would?? OK...... now that might need revision...

3rd. Sure they had a choice... but they couldn't make a choice based off of good and evil because they had no knowledge of those concepts (until they had eaten the fruit). Therefore they were punished for doing evil even though they didn't know they were doing it?? God punishes those who go against him and doesn't want people to be able to think for themselves??[/b]

1: You can control the way it moves and how it is controlled. He said that you can control what you have been given. Free will is to make decisions with what you have. You were never promised the ability to change your body. Physics has to have it's own free will. It chooses to keep you from floating away. God promised free will on earth.

2: You need to read things with higher accuracy. God didn't promise WHEN he would give humans free will. He just promised humans would have free will. It's like your mom saying you can have a cookie, but not know. Reading and thinking are two important things. Don't leap before you think.

3: They were just uninformed. If you didn't know that rape was illegal in the U.S. and you raped someone in the U.S. do you think that you should just get away with it? That is ridiculous. Even though they didn't know what would happen if they did eat the fruit doesn't mean they are automatically exempt from punishment. They still have to face what they deserve.

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker@
If you knew anything about evolution and the process of natural selection you would know that it requires a base of genetic diversity to happen. No genetic diversity = no evolution. Two humans is not genetic diversity.

Over enough time humans can change because of weather conditions. Humans can adapt and change according to conditions that they are put in. Natural selection has allowed the possibility for humans to exist. It is a basic concept.

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker

I typed up that explanation of how we exist for you.[/quote]

Words do not always imply actions.

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

Over enough time humans can change because of weather conditions. Humans can adapt and change according to conditions that they are put in. Natural selection has allowed the possibility for humans to exist. It is a basic concept.[/b]

I agree. It is a basic concept that you seemingly don't understand. NATURAL SELECTION REQUIRES GENETIC DIVERSITY TO TAKE PLACE. A gene pool consisting of 2 original humans does not provide that diversity. You can't believe in Adam and Eve and evolution at the same time. They are fundamentally incompatible.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume
Words do not always imply actions.

WTF? I don't even know what that means. Are you saying that you aren't going to read it? That took me like 2 freakin' hours to write up.

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

I agree. It is a basic concept that you seemingly don't understand. NATURAL SELECTION REQUIRES GENETIC DIVERSITY TO TAKE PLACE. A gene pool consisting of 2 original humans does not provide that diversity. You can't believe in Adam and Eve and evolution at the same time. They are fundamentally incompatible.[/b]

There is a problem with your thinking. Just because each human is born from the same two beings does not mean that they will automatically die. Natural selection can still happen since humans though having similar genetics can still be diverse enough to live. Even though two people are born through the same parents they can evolve so differently from their parents that it is possible for them to safely have kids without disease.

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
WTF? I don't even know what that means. Are you saying that you aren't going to read it? That took me like 2 freakin' hours to write up.

I meant that just because you said you have done it doesn't mean it is true so just send it already. This is going to be better than listening to Wolfowitz.

Originally posted by Yume
There is a problem with your thinking. Just because each human is born from the same two beings does not mean that they will automatically die. Natural selection can still happen since humans though having similar genetics can still be diverse enough to live. Even though two people are born through the same parents they can evolve so differently from their parents that it is possible for them to safely have kids without disease.

Stop what you're doing for a second and listen very closely....can you hear that noise?

That's the sound of me repeatedly bashing my face off of my desk.

I'm not giving you an opinion here, this topic is not up for debate. The existence of only two organisms does not provide enough genetic diversity for the species to undergo the process of natural selection.

Perhaps you are aware that incest results in an increased rate of birth defects and lowered resistance to certain diseases. The obvious example is the British Royal family, the rampant incest in that family to keep the blood 'pure' over the last half millenia has resulted in many cases of hemophelia in the family. And that's coming from a base genetic diversity MUCH, MUCH, MUCH greater than 2 humans giving rise to our entire species.

Read a friggin' biology textbook. This isn't complex stuff.

I meant that just because you said you have done it doesn't mean it is true so just send it already.[/b]

It's posted in Extended Discussion, "A Brief History of Existence". I patiently await your response.

Originally posted by bradybaker
Stop what you're doing for a second and listen very closely....can you hear that noise?

That's the sound of me repeatedly bashing my face off of my desk.

I'm not giving you an opinion here, this topic is not up for debate. The existence of only two organisms does not provide enough genetic diversity for the species to undergo the process of natural selection.

Perhaps you are aware that incest results in an increased rate of birth defects and lowered resistance to certain diseases. The obvious example is the British Royal family, the rampant incest in that family to keep the blood 'pure' over the last half millenia has resulted in many cases of hemophelia in the family the And that's coming from a base genetic diversity MUCH, MUCH, MUCH greater than 2 humans giving rise to our entire species.

Read a friggin' biology textbook. This isn't complex stuff.

You still haven't realized it yet. It doesn't take too much thought. You know. Questions in the back of biology books are good to answer. They test to show if you really know what you read. I remember having to do them. They were fun and gave me a chance to think like you should too. Don't think this is on one idea. There are many ideas in those ideas and so on.

1) Incest results in an increased rate of birth defects and lowered resistance to certain diseases.

2) The rampant incest in that family to keep the blood 'pure' over the last half millenia has resulted in many cases of hemophelia in the family.

That alone should be enough to realize you are wrong and it was your own typing.

Do birth defects neccissarily mean death? No they do not. Was every person in the Royal Family infected with Hemophelia? No they were not. Humans can still survive even though there is incest i the history. The fact that humans could and did last in the beginning of the earth proves you wrong . Even though there is a higher risk of birth defects does not mean that it meant absolute death for humanity. You cannot be sure that the sons and daughters actually had birth effects or Hemophelia.

By the way. My response may come on as late as monday of next week depending on my schedule. If you care to wait that long I will have an answer for you. I am not sure of what will happen because I will be travelling. I do respect you enough to give you an answer though.

Originally posted by Yume


2: You need to read things with higher accuracy. God didn't promise WHEN he would give humans free will. He just promised humans would have free will. It's like your mom saying you can have a cookie, but not know. Reading and thinking are two important things. Don't leap before you think.

This goes totally against the problem of evil... which was our original point of debate. If God has not yet given us freewill then we are not responsible for the evil in the world, he is. So there goes your view of an all good God out the window? So do we have freewill or not?

Originally posted by tboothby

This goes totally against the problem of evil... which was our original point of debate. If God has not yet given us freewill then we are not responsible for the evil in the world, he is. So there goes your view of an all good God out the window? So do we have freewill or not?

I have never said that God is "All good". Do not assume.

You obvously did not read my third point or if you did you misinterpreted it completely. Just because you didn't know you did something wrong doesn't mean you shouldn't be punished for it. Obviously God agrees with me on that one considering he punished Adam and Eve.

We do have free will. I was just stating that at the beginning of the first human existance meaning Adam and Eve there may not of been complete free will. God promised us it, but he did not neccissarily say it would start with Adam.

In a real CX debate you would lose because you did not correctly interpret my information. You need to re-read. This is the second time in a row you have not correctly read the information that I gave you and thus you do not seem ready yet to really face someone in a debate at this level.

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-tboothby

This goes totally against the problem of evil... which was our original point of debate. If God has not yet given us freewill then we are not responsible for the evil in the world, he is. So there goes your view of an all good God out the window? So do we have freewill or not?

I have never said that God is \"All good\". Do not assume.

You obvously did not read my third point or if you did you misinterpreted it completely. Just because you didn't know you did something wrong doesn't mean you shouldn't be punished for it. Obviously God agrees with me on that one considering he punished Adam and Eve.

We do have free will. I was just stating that at the beginning of the first human existance meaning Adam and Eve there may not of been complete free will. God promised us it, but he did not neccissarily say it would start with Adam.

In a real CX debate you would lose because you did not correctly interpret my information. You need to re-read. This is the second time in a row you have not correctly read the information that I gave you and thus you do not seem ready yet to really face someone in a debate at this level.[/b]

Well first off you seem to have misread or misinterpreted your high school humanities reading... we were talking about the problem of evil... WHICH STATES THAT GOD IS ALL GOOD... you cannot debate this fact... it is true... GOD IS ALL GOOD according to Augustin... who's view this thread was discussing... if you would like to comment on a topic other then the problem of evil and st. Augustin please feel free to make a new thread.

Secondly if you read St. Augustin he addresses your 3rd point. He states that it is not the purpose of any ruling power to punish a foriegner only to reward them. Therefore since Adam and Eve had yet to recieve/take any devine knowledge they were foriegners to God, hence they should not have been punished.

As for Adam not nessicarily having freewill... I hold to my argument that if Adam didn't have knowledge about good and evil he cannot beheld accountible for his actions (according to Augustin) and so God was wrong to punish him... or he didnt have free will then God was wrong not to have given it to him (again from Augustin)...

It is true that in America a foriegner would be punished for commiting a crime... but as a Christian (I will assume you are a Christian...is that ok?) what do you hold in higher esteem... Laws of the United States of America... or the Law of God as proscribed by one of his Saints?

And might I add for all, it seems that this topic has gotten some tempers up... I would remind you that I was orginally interested in this topic from a scholarly point of view... I want to talk philosophy. Philosophy is the search for truth, it is a science in the sense that science is a search for truth... please try to keep violent emotions from clouding judgement in an effort to have a civil conversation. I apologize if I have offended anybody.

Originally posted by Yume
In a real CX debate you would lose because you did not correctly interpret my information. You need to re-read. This is the second time in a row you have not correctly read the information that I gave you and thus you do not seem ready yet to really face someone in a debate at this level.

Since you're bringing up real debates, as you made the statement "god promised free will" can you please provide evidence for it? When does not have to come into it. AFAIK nowhere in abrahamic religion did free will exist before good ol' augustine. It looks like free will was absent in the story of adam and eve, as it does in other stories in the bible.

-spoon

Originally posted by tboothby+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tboothby)</div>

Well first off you seem to have misread or misinterpreted your high school humanities reading... we were talking about the problem of evil... WHICH STATES THAT GOD IS ALL GOOD... you cannot debate this fact... it is true... GOD IS ALL GOOD according to Augustine... who's view this thread was discussing... if you would like to comment on a topic other then the problem of evil and St. Augustine please feel free to make a new thread.

Secondly if you read St. Augustine he addresses your 3rd point. He states that it is not the purpose of any ruling power to punish a foriegner only to reward them. Therefore since Adam and Eve had yet to recieve/take any devine knowledge they were foriegners to God, hence they should not have been punished.

As for Adam not neccissarily having freewill... I hold to my argument that if Adam didn't have knowledge about good and evil he cannot beheld accountable for his actions (according to Augustine) and so God was wrong to punish him... or he didnt have free will then God was wrong not to have given it to him (again from Augustine)...

It is true that in America a foriegner would be punished for commiting a crime... but as a Christian (I will assume you are a Christian...is that ok?) what do you hold in higher esteem... Laws of the United States of America... or the Law of God as proscribed by one of his Saints?

And might I add for all, it seems that this topic has gotten some tempers up... I would remind you that I was orginally interested in this topic from a scholarly point of view... I want to talk philosophy. Philosophy is the search for truth, it is a science in the sense that science is a search for truth... please try to keep violent emotions from clouding judgement in an effort to have a civil conversation. I apologize if I have offended anybody.[/b]

You are completely out of your mind. You should have named the thread people who only agree with me post here.

You cannot prove that God is good with logic. I completely disagree with you. The fact that you only have gotten the information by one man shows that you are just another close-minded person. St. Augustine can be easily disproved. To say God is completely good and then say he punished Adam is just ridiculous. I would think that people who say they worship God would hold God higher than a ridiculous man who's logic has been dissproven over and over. I should leave you with your crazy beliefs. You cannot truly worship God if you think he was wrong in punishing Adam.

If you held your arguments in a real debate and it was on this topic people would agree with me because I have proven you wrong and you refuse to believe something that is common sense one again proves your narrow-mindedness.

I am not and will never again be any sort of Christian. I was when I was little and believed whatever I was told. I then did my own research and found the religion that suited me. It is people like you who have confirmed that. I am Jewish and thank goodness my bloodline allows me to. I would agree with the laws of the United States. This is because I live in this country and even though I have my own beliefs I want to let every else in the U.S. to have their opinions. If I didn't agree with a law I would try to change it, but others still have rights to opinions that could differ from mine. Since religion cannot technically be completely proven people would rather go by the decisions that the government since you can obviously prove the government exists This is also another point of free will. By admisistrating your beliefs in government and forcing it on others takes away from free will which is what God wanted. You want more free will than you already have which is a greedy thing to wish.

<!--QuoteBegin- The question that was put up in first post
Think about it? Do you really have freewill? Take this example: You choose to hit a poolball... but what decides which way it goes? how far it goes? Physics/reality/God? You are not in control of reality but merely a pupet who cannot see his strings. It is like trapping a person in a cage and saying... \"you are free\". the person can do whatever they like in the cage, but are they free?

That was what you asked me. I never agreed to believe that St. Augustine was correct nor your statement that God is completely good. You never said in your first post that you wanted us to believe those two things if you were to read our reply. Not everything you believe is correct and I hope you learn that before you die.

I am not trying to be mean, but this is reality and your point of view won't always be the one that others agree with.

I also edited your post for grammar. You should look at it to decrease future mistakes.

I am not a Christian and so you may not like my answer.

But on the God being good or God being evil question, I will try to answer.

This question is posed and arises from dualistic thinking structures. Therefore, it is only appropriate to answer using a dualistic thinking structure.

Therefore, good and evil, arising from dualistic thinking, are products of the human mind.

(now maybe leaving the structures of dualistic thinking)

Now then, unless you believe God to also be a product of the human mind, God can be neither good nor evil. If God is not a product of the human mind, God must necessarily transcend the human mind, and therefore human conceptions such as good and evil cannot be applied to God. God is not a person but not less than a person. At the same time, we are a person but also more than a person.