Got me fooled again

So I was on the hunt for answers. The place was crowded and I looked for an entity that was aside which I could lead somewhere to apply a bit more pressure. And there I found one, appearing like a girl, but she seemed to expect me. Why? I didn't have to convince her at all, she came with me without hesitation. Did she know what I was up to? We walked along a nearby brook and crossed a bridge. The perfect spot, no one else was around. I wanted answers about the nature of the dream, about the beings that constantly fooled around with me, about their motivations... and I would accept no evasion. I realized something strange about her arm, like an open wound. Round white parts and blood that was much too pale and thick ran out of it, or so it seemed. I got worried and lost lucidity. A few more moments later I woke up realizing she tricked me. The situation was set up, they found out I was lucid and she was the bait to get me back on the hook. They're playing smart, but I'm learning their ways. Yet how can I avoid being tracked as lucid? Not all of them can tell the difference, but some can and when they do, they know exactly what triggers to pull.

How about this. This is YOUR dream. They can't do shit about it. The only reason something happens is because you expect it to, you let it happen.

Sorry, no. I have a different opinion about that. It's also my life (it seems), but that does not mean others have no influence on it. And second, DCs don't give information freely. Try talking to your DCs and tell them that it's all just a dream (which is pretty silly comparing it to someone walking around telling people it's all just life) and see for yourself how they react. I guess you'll be surprised.

Actually, I can make them tell me whatever I want. In the small amount of lucids I had, I influenced my dream characters, not the other way around. They are just objects. Figments of your imagination. Whatever you want them to do, they will.

Edit: If you keep believing that they have their own will then you'll never get control.

Doesn't convince me.

i agree, i can make a DC do whatever i want. if you are aware than you will stay lucid no matter what "tricks" they play. just be aware. what i do is try to pay attention to my waking life, and pretend that if i lost focus on what i'm doing then i will cease to exist lol. that usually keeps me aware for a few minutes until something distracts me or i get lost in my thoughts. that's why meditation is beneficial too.

btw, that was funny picturing some guy yelling excitedly "i'm awake! this is reality! you people are real!". LMAO, that made my day.

Well, just clear whatever makes them aware (autosugestion), after all your in control of the whole world your in (unless it were a post in BD), then again canceling your own control is another way of control lol

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

i agree, i can make a DC do whatever i want.

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I know that this is possible, but I have no interest in playing puppeteer. Getting superficial or probably false information from DCs does not require any effort and making them do things requires a little, but what's the use. I can see when they become uncomfortable answering certain questions and more than once I observed them becoming increasingly uncomfortable the more (pre)lucid I became. I'm not taking things for granted just because someone tells me. Experiencing is believing. They're quick giving false answers and when you believe they're just objects anyway, you may just take their response and be satisfied with it. I'm not, they know more than they're usually willing to tell.

Apart from that, in my experience you can't have every DC do what you want and you also cannot shape every dream situation just like you want it to be. This often works (within limits) and if it doesn't you can switch the whole scenery, but that's not the same. Some DCs/situations are more powerful and consistant than others. Besides, what can you learn controlling and manipulating things? It's only your own reflection you'd face that way.

Of course I expect them to behave in the way I described, but that is because it's what I learned from observation. I had no expectations of that kind when I first began to ask them what they are and what they know about me and the world they exist in or about the waking world.

P.S. Please don't use terms like "autosuggestion" and "subconscious" arguing with me. Those are no scientific facts but old-fashioned hypotheses that made it into common knowledge with the usual 50+ years delay. Thinking models that for some reason became more popular (but not more correct) than other models. You can't take the mind and dissect it like a frog to recognize and name it's parts. I simply don't believe in the freudian model. In my opinion it's incomplete and inadequate. It was a very raw tool at its time and does not even reflect today's status. In school it is still taught for historical reasons, though that is often not made clear enough. Using it to argue with me is like telling an atheist something is true because it's written in the bible. I keep to what I can oberve and am open for the observations of others to indirectly learn from them. That is a more productive basis of discussion.

For once forget everything you think is granted or others have taught you and observe, not looking through the tinted spectactles of your culture. It's hard to learn things, but it's a lot harder to unlearn them and see with open eyes.

Sure, dream characters connect to the subconcious. That's why when you ask them questions about yourself, expect to get a right answer, and you will. If you won't "play puppeteer", you'll just keep getting "tricked" and "set up".

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Originally Posted by PSPSoldier534

Sure, dream characters connect to the subconcious.

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You didn't read my post.

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Originally Posted by gigaschatten

You didn't read my post.

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I was making a connection between your post and what I wanted to add.

Arguing? I was trying to give an answer to your question <.<
Why would the DC fool you if your 100% sure they are frigments of imagination? Considering, of course, the post about scientific information, isn't that then just because your expecting them to? Just use your mind to stop that or either it will happen again until you find a way to fool yourself or the DC, however you want to see it. Anyway, its not that common to find the kind of DC.

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Originally Posted by Walms

Arguing? I was trying to give an answer to your question <.<
Why would the DC fool you if your 100% sure they are frigments of imagination? Considering, of course, the post about scientific information, isn't that then just because your expecting them to? Just use your mind to stop that or either it will happen again until you find a way to fool yourself or the DC, however you want to see it. Anyway, its not that common to find the kind of DC.

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I agree with this. You need to take charge.

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Originally Posted by Walms

Why would the DC fool you if your 100&#37; sure they are frigments of imagination?

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And what makes you so sure?

Most people can't visualize a rotating cube. What makes you think your mind develops visualization superpowers when asleep so you can imagine a seemingly unlimited amount of personalities and places?

Can you prove that dreams are imagination? What is the evidence?

Is waking reality on the other hand no imagination, just because your influence on matter is a bit more limited?

What if dreaming is caused by the invisible part of your existence being temporarily unattached to your body? Most things we deal with every day can not be seen and scientists even assume that 22% of our universe consists of dark (unperceivable) matter and another 74% of dark energy. That leaves 4% of perceivable matter/energy in our whole universe from which we have directly and indirectly maybe perceived 0,05% or less. You really think we can derive from that how our universe works? Consider that.

Your argumentation stands on brittle ground but you may not realize that because it is what is commonly accepted in your culture. Remember though that acceptance does not equal accuracy and that society is rather an amplifier than a filter for misleading beliefs.

You can't answer my question, but I'm eager to hear your opinion, YOUR opinion, not what you have been taught and now think is yours.

Even in the unlikely case that you are right and DCs are a fragment of our imagination, don't we often fool or lie to ourselves when we want to forget, when we want something to be true badly, when we have insufficient or wrong information, when we cannot or do not want to deal with something, ...? So what makes you think even if DCs are a part of your mind, that they would speak the truth as they know it?

I'm still not out of arguments. Do you have control over your mind? I see people regularly give up because they think they can't go on. I see people that are unhappy, because their mind does not realize what they really have. I see people with eating disorders, because they cannot accept their body and I see people that break out with aggression because they cannot control their ego. So what makes you think we could control a whole personality - and if you leave them some space, you will notice that DCs can have complex personalities that are very different from your own - just because it is part of our mind? Do we even have control over our mind or does it control us?

Have you ever experienced (unlikely) or read about experiences people made with DMT? (recommended literature: "DMT - The Spirit Molecule") There is more than one dimension of reality and the physical body is neither you nor the cause of your existence. Sleep is one of the closest things to death that we can experience without permanently giving up the physical body. Use it to learn and expand your horizon or go on believing the narrow view of a culture that worships physical matter. You decide.

You see, I have good reasons to believe what I do and I am sure you have yours, but it can be very enlightening to recheck them.

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Originally Posted by gigaschatten

And what makes you so sure?

Most people can't visualize a rotating cube. What makes you think your mind develops visualization superpowers when asleep so you can imagine a seemingly unlimited amount of personalities and places?

Can you prove that dreams are imagination? What is the evidence?

Is waking reality on the other hand no imagination, just because your influence on matter is a bit more limited?

What if dreaming is caused by the invisible part of your existence being temporarily unattached to your body? Most things we deal with every day can not be seen and scientists even assume that 22% of our universe consists of dark (unperceivable) matter and another 74% of dark energy. That leaves 4% of perceivable matter/energy in our whole universe from which we have directly and indirectly maybe perceived 0,05% or less. You really think we can derive from that how our universe works? Consider that.

Your argumentation stands on brittle ground but you may not realize that because it is what is commonly accepted in your culture. Remember though that acceptance does not equal accuracy and that society is rather an amplifier than a filter for misleading beliefs.

You can't answer my question, but I'm eager to hear your opinion, YOUR opinion, not what you have been taught and now think is yours.

Even in the unlikely case that you are right and DCs are a fragment of our imagination, don't we often fool or lie to ourselves when we want to forget, when we want something to be true badly, when we have insufficient or wrong information, when we cannot or do not want to deal with something, ...? So what makes you think even if DCs are a part of your mind, that they would speak the truth as they know it?

I'm still not out of arguments. Do you have control over your mind? I see people regularly give up because they think they can't go on. I see people that are unhappy, because their mind does not realize what they really have. I see people with eating disorders, because they cannot accept their body and I see people that break out with aggression because they cannot control their ego. So what makes you think we could control a whole personality - and if you leave them some space, you will notice that DCs can have complex personalities that are very different from your own - just because it is part of our mind? Do we even have control over our mind or does it control us?

Have you ever experienced (unlikely) or read about experiences people made with DMT? (recommended literature: "DMT - The Spirit Molecule") There is more than one dimension of reality and the physical body is neither you nor the cause of your existence. Sleep is one of the closest things to death that we can experience without permanently giving up the physical body. Use it to learn and expand your horizon or go on believing the narrow view of a culture that worships physical matter. You decide.

You see, I have good reasons to believe what I do and I am sure you have yours, but it can be very enlightening to recheck them.

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perhaps you are just repeating what has been taught to you. everyone's reality is different, and what is absolutely true to you is false for someone else. not even christians agree with one another. i agree with some of the things you've said, but i do believe DC's are just complex hallucinations, and nothing more. your example of a rotating cube is faulty, because dreams don't require you to consciously visualize something, but rather uses your memory.

Your hunger for knowledge seems to be tampered by your feelings and emotions. The exact reason you lost lucidity when you saw the open wound on the girl's arm.

"Have you ever experienced (unlikely) or read about experiences people made with DMT? (recommended literature: "DMT - The Spirit Molecule") There is more than one dimension of reality and the physical body is neither you nor the cause of your existence. Sleep is one of the closest things to death that we can experience without permanently giving up the physical body. Use it to learn and expand your horizon or go on believing the narrow view of a culture that worships physical matter. You decide."

Note: Some people who have been doing drugs all of their lives were not ready for a DMT experience and would not recommend anyone trying to purchase it online (if possible).

The God Molecule may enhance one's perception past comprehensible proportion but I do believe for the rest of us, that training the physical body is necessary to train one's spirit. Through one's spirit, may we perceive what we are, in the present moment.

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

perhaps you are just repeating what has been taught to you.

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Perhaps I'm a purple carrot. Very unlikely though.

What you are taught by others is what others want you to know. You are not taught to become happy and satisfied and to live a valuable life. You are not even taught to eat healthy food. What does that tell you about those that teach you and their teachings?

A lion might leave corpses behind, but all a sheep leaves is a pile of poop.

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

everyone's reality is different, and what is absolutely true to you is false for someone else.

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There's no truth we could talk about, but we have our opinions.

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

not even christians agree with one another.

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Especially christians don't. ;)

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

i agree with some of the things you've said,...

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Most of what I said were questions. How can you agree with questions? Have you answered them?

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

but i do believe DC's are just complex hallucinations, and nothing more.

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Yes, hallucinations of the physical brain. So limited when awake that it relies on a countless number of tools to perform the easiest of daily tasks like a shopping list, because it can't recall 10 things properly to buy at the mall. But once asleep it is able to create worlds, personalities, machinery, ... that is absolutely plausible. How could I not realize?

It's nice that you believe, but what are your arguments? If we both just say what we believe, this would be a very useless conversation and none of us would profit from it in any way. I have given mine, so I think it'd be fair to give me yours so I have the chance to learn something as well.

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

your example of a rotating cube is faulty, because dreams don't require you to consciously visualize something, but rather uses your memory.

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If I show you a rotating cube, this still will not significantly improve your skill of imagining it though you then possess the memory, but I can dream of a hundred rotating cubes. So when I am able to dream it, but not to imagine it, then dream and imagination cannot be the same.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

Your hunger for knowledge seems to be tampered by your feelings and emotions. The exact reason you lost lucidity when you saw the open wound on the girl's arm.

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What would I be without? Failure is learning to not fail again.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

Note: Some people who have been doing drugs all of their lives were not ready for a DMT experience and would not recommend anyone trying to purchase it online (if possible).

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The Spice is very destructive. But one can't built a stable house on a rotten base anyway.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

The God Molecule may enhance one's perception past comprehensible proportion but I do believe for the rest of us, that training the physical body is necessary to train one's spirit. Through one's spirit, may we perceive what we are, in the present moment.

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A valuable tool should always be kept in good shape.

lol, like i said, i agree with some of the things say.

we are at least told to eat healthy foods (well i was, even though i ignored it for the most part) and my grandma taught me how to live a satisfying life.

what does having to remember a grocery list have anything to do with hallucinating? it's DMT that is mainly the reason why we are able to have such vivid hallucinations, and not to mention the reason why dreams are the closest thing to death. it's memory + DMT = dreams. it's not "magic" that causes us to all of a sudden be able to visualize while we sleep, it's simply chemicals, so it makes it hard to be able to understand. "why can't i visualize a rotating cube? and all of a sudden i'm able to dream of a thousand of them? oh it must be another dimension! yes that makes perfect sense!" where in fact it's just your brain reacting to chemicals. to me that makes more sense than saying DC's are not merely a part of me, but something else entirely. so there's my argument :D

edit: don't get me wrong, there's more to "reality" than just what you see, i understand this concept. i have intense moments that some might say are "spiritual" although i don't like that word, or most of the things that come with it.

We have our opinions and I can't agree with your argumentation.

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Originally Posted by gigaschatten

We have our opinions and I can't agree with your argumentation.

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same here bro, it's all good though. it doesn't mean we have to be enemies or anything like that. don't take it personally, we just have different views on some things. at least we have lucid dreaming :P

btw, i'm not implying that you would take it personally, i'm just saying there's no hard feelings. like you said, it's just opinion anyway.

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

same here bro, it's all good though. it doesn't mean we have to be enemies or anything like that.

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Of course not.

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Originally Posted by gigaschatten

What would I be without? Failure is learning to not fail again.

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What would I be without? You could learn be more open.

To experience something with thoughts and emotions is to experience something biased. From an experience, you must separate the experience, the thought, and the emotion. The experience is natural; The thought and emotions connected to it are human.

The next time you have an experience and have a thought about the experience, quickly stop your thought process (everyone should be able to do this for at least one or two seconds) and concentrate on where the emotion is located in your body. Then connect the location to your previous thought.

After doing this a few dozen times, you will start to recognize patterns. In which, case you will start to break down the need to experience something emotionally (every time) and be able to experience day to day happenings more openly(raw).

So the next time the girl shows you (or you happen to see) her arm, you can see it as a more open experience and perhaps look back up to her face and ask her "What is wrong with your arm?"

EDIT: Failure is learning to not fail again? I didn't quite understand this. Did you mean the same as 'Success is learning from failure the first time?' or 'Failure is not learning from failure.' I have never heard the saying you used.

EDIT 2: I screwed up the quote.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

The experience is natural; The thought and emotions connected to it are human.

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I disagree. All experience a human being can have is human by nature, simply because the one experiencing is human.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

The next time you have an experience and have a thought about the experience, quickly stop your thought process (everyone should be able to do this for at least one or two seconds) and concentrate on where the emotion is located in your body. Then connect the location to your previous thought.

After doing this a few dozen times, you will start to recognize patterns. In which, case you will start to break down the need to experience something emotionally (every time) and be able to experience day to day happenings more openly(raw).

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I know that exercise but I don't agree on the result. It helps you to become aware of emotions, which is not equivalent to being more open.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

So the next time the girl shows you (or you happen to see) her arm, you can see it as a more open experience and perhaps look back up to her face and ask her "What is wrong with your arm?"

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There are alarm situations where one relies on unreflected action to protect oneself or others. This was one of such and there was no time for things like locating emotional feedback centers. I'm sure you wouldn't analyze your emotions first when evading a truck heading for you at full speed. Whatever she had on her arm (noodle/tomato soup?), it triggered alarm.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

EDIT: Failure is learning to not fail again? I didn't quite understand this. Did you mean the same as 'Success is learning from failure the first time?' or 'Failure is not learning from failure.' I have never heard the saying you used.

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It means exactly what it says. Next time I'll be prepared because I failed this time and learned from it. When something like that happens again, I'll remember the result and act differently or evade such a situation alltogether. But they don't try things twice anyway, at least not as far as I can recall.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

EDIT 2: I screwed up the quote.

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Well, not that I'm sure dreams are just your imagination, was using that as a reference for one of the possible answers, in case, of course, that were your belief. Its not like I'm attached to the popular belief anyway.
Then again, the answer I give varies greatly on which of the forum sections the question is posted.
Anyway,the best way to avoid being tricked right now (in my opinion) would be to fool yourself everytime there is a DC of the kind. How to do it, I dunno, as its you the one who look for it to stop.

how you worded it is like saying "failure is succeeding to fail". it doesn't really make much sense to be honest. i think you meant to say "success is learning not to fail again" or something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by ForgottenDream

how you worded it is like saying "failure is succeeding to fail". it doesn't really make much sense to be honest. i think you meant to say "success is learning not to fail again" or something along those lines.

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Yes, you're right, it can be misunderstood. The phrasing was a bit unlucky, but still correct.

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Originally Posted by gigaschatten

There are alarm situations where one relies on unreflected action to protect oneself or others. This was one of such and there was no time for things like locating emotional feedback centers. I'm sure you wouldn't analyze your emotions first when evading a truck heading for you at full speed. Whatever she had on her arm (noodle/tomato soup?), it triggered alarm.

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The technique that I was trying to explain to you was not supposed to be done while lucid. The technique, when done over a period of time in waking life, can help you to detach yourself from emotional stimulus, while still being completely emotionally aware. (And will be reflected so, while lucid.) Its like being able to change your behavior, if the one now gets you into trouble.

This can help one not jump to conclusions when an emotional up rival comes from unforeseen stimulus. You said the noodle soup enabled panic mode and you had to fall out of lucidity, even if its something else to that extreme, emotional attachment will pull you every time. (Most people, it seems, have no problem controlling their dreaming. If you would like not to, then you must be able to control yourself.)

I have had DCs try to pull me out of lucidity with illusions. Once, I asked a DC named Heather Nonconnor what I was doing dreaming in 'this current location'. Next thing I know, I'm climbing a mountain. After making it to the top I found myself in front of a door. I stopped to become more aware of my surroundings, turning around, I find myself back in the room with her.

After I tried to further ask her questions, she started talking very softly, to the point that I couldn't hear her. Now, please tell me how to have DCs talk louder, even after you ask them to do so. Hah.

Is it possible that some DCs can't tell you anything?
It may simply be one locked door after another.

Ask yourself, what have you done for the DC to earn their knowledge?

It sounds as if you do not want lucid control to be one way, then why should it be?

Good Luck.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

The technique, when done over a period of time in waking life, can help you to detach yourself from emotional stimulus, ...

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I know that technique, because I trained it when I aimed for OBEs. Nevertheless it doesn't work in all situations, at least not for me. If it wasn't for that, it would've been a valuable information.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

I have had DCs try to pull me out of lucidity with illusions. Once, I asked a DC named Heather Nonconnor what I was doing dreaming in 'this current location'. Next thing I know, I'm climbing a mountain. After making it to the top I found myself in front of a door. I stopped to become more aware of my surroundings, turning around, I find myself back in the room with her.

After I tried to further ask her questions, she started talking very softly, to the point that I couldn't hear her. Now, please tell me how to have DCs talk louder, even after you ask them to do so. Hah.

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Interesting story. Heather Nonconnor, the Highlander's secret wife. ;) They never get memories right.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

Is it possible that some DCs can't tell you anything?

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That's exactly the point I want to find out about. But yes, most are just part of the scenery, probably nothing more than that. Yet some few are different, knowing and experienced themselves. In most dreams there at least seems to be one of that kind, like an overseer or a stage director. Playing with the scenery ones is not my intention and people here are right, most DCs are nothing but objects... but not all. Who knows, there may even be different factions, various races or a society structure as complex as ours.

Many people consider themselves oneironauts or oneirologists, just because they have lucid dreams. Yet they are full of preconceptions and don't even ask questions because they think they already have the answer. That is too easy.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

It may simply be one locked door after another.

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Then I'll have to find keys or learn to unlock them without.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

Ask yourself, what have you done for the DC to earn their knowledge?

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How about being a playball for them most of my sleeping life. They must have a reason for wanting to be near us, creating one distressing situation after another, positive or negative, but always strongly emotional. I may be wrong, but I think they draw emotional energy from us. Who ever had a dream sitting at the beach just relaxing? What have they done to earn whatever it is they take? A predator does not ask itself if it earned the prey or the prey if it wants to be eaten - as doesn't a bird picking seeds. It's like they draw information from our memories, to confront us with things that touch us - yet they never get the memories right.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

It sounds as if you do not want lucid control to be one way, then why should it be?

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I don't want to control them, but I also don't want to be played by them. As I said above I see no use in making DCs my puppets. If you're focussed on applying control, all you will find are its results, a reflection of yourself. I want to find out what good I could possibly draw from them. Sharing knowledge won't harm them... well, it probably depends on the knowledge.

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Originally Posted by tranquilitybytrey

Good Luck.

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Thanks.

by the way i want to wish you luck also on your quest to find out what these DC's want. i know you disagree, but i just lucid dream for the fun of it, and also to learn more about myself in a sense. i might even lucid dream about relaxing on a beach now that you mention it lol. also, i just checked out your music, and i must say you have major talent, i enjoyed it a lot.

Thank you.