Thread: Structure/Organization Department

Well... If you have a chapter about supplements and follow it with something about placebos, the connection is going to be made for some people. Even if we don't mean it that way, people might take it that way.

so should i just trash it?

or take out the positive placebo part

so its just saying dont believe things unless you KNOW they will be detrimental to your dreaming

Well, you already wrote it, so just leave it. It's nice to have it there in case we need it.

Originally Posted by marcc

Don't forget, we should have a relatively large section that contains anecdotes and stories from lucid dreamers, so that it's easy to become motivated

Just wanna poke my head in and mention: One of the things I disliked about EWOLD is that there'd be a sappy motivational personal experience wedged in all over the place. Just a suggestion, can be ignored if you want, but maybe keep all of these anecdotes and DJ entries for the very end of the book, but organized by relevancy to topic. For example, "Overcoming fear/nightmares". At the end of that section of the book, it could say "Go to pages x-xx" and on pages x-xx you'd have those dream stories. That way, if you want to read them you just zip to x-xx, but if you don't you can just keep reading normally.

seems like a good idea

Yea, Shift. That was my original plan.

i don't know if this is useful or not, but a favorite illustrator of mine, shaun tan, has a bunch of useful info on his page about being an illustrator and making childrens books. one of the topics he discusses in his FAQ is how he goes about creating a complete book:

source: http://www.shauntan.net/

"I will write many disconnected sentences and phrases, and mix these with small thumbnail drawings, over many pages of a sketchbook - aware that I will throw away or change almost everything later on. Often I end up writing and drawing a lot of material, and then strip it back to its essential images and words; build on those, and again strip it back - so it is kind of like modelling and carving using ideas.

...

If the story and concept seem strong (as if a publisher likes it), I will produce a dummy, a sketchy version of the book with all its pages, at roughly the printed size. It’s full of photocopied drawings and bits of paper carrying text stuck down with removable tape, so I can keep going back and exchange parts, move them around, elaborate or reduce. I’m constantly reading through to check for fluency and contrasts, and book design (where the text and pictures go). It’s also a handy thing to copy and send to my editor for comment, as well as the ‘instruction manual’ for the finished artwork and story that I refer to throughout the long process of production, which can extend, on and off, over years. Over such a period, the dummy serves to remind you of the look and feel of the project.

anyway, maybe after we've compiled a wealth of information and sources and thoroughly linked the info we want to use to their sources. before we begin any intensive writing/ or illustration/design we should create an "official" dummy version of the book. so the fluency, narrative and ideas are built strong. in my experience as an illustrator, jumping into an idea, working on various parts without a plan can provide a lack of cohesion; and in order for this to be a book that grabs an audience and be as comprehensive as we want it to be, we have to make sure everything works well together.

what i propose is that we focus on gathering the materials we'll need, and then plan. when we have it all planned out, we provide a .pdf file that feels like the book, complete with table of contents, titles pages, ecetera. but instead of writing we have the outlines of what needs to be discussed, descriptions of the illustrations.. people can they reference the pdf file and then build the puzzle pieces, after which they are pieced together in the final book.

as an artist, i believe in preparation. great artists like michelangelo studies various forms and experimented to find a great composition before they started painting. we need to adopt the same standards.

YES, thank you, I feel the same.

It is IMPERATIVE that we have good preparation before we do too much. This means having a solid working outline ASAP (as Jeff emphasized in the Chapter thread as well). I'm also worried about the writing style and how it will all flow together. Which is another reason we need a solid outline to work from.

If we decide to use illustrations, the "artists" of the group can use the outline to see where what would fit where (I really like the style of those paintings above).

I think we should try to plan a live session to go over some of the main issues regarding the organization, layout, flow, outline etc... of the book; get some stuff down on paper and have feedback literally at our fingertips...

Originally Posted by dreamingofdreaming

I think we should try to plan a live session to go over some of the main issues regarding the organization, layout, flow, outline etc... of the book; get some stuff down on paper and have feedback literally at our fingertips...

That idea has been brought up and I think it's a good one, - especially seeing as it's time to begin writing.

sounds good, lets make a time/date to meet up a design the "dummy" pdf file. the most important thing to bring to this meeting is not extensive information - but knowledge of what exact topics and material we do need to include. i say let's give ourselves and the research department a week or two to collect that, and then schedule the meeting thereafter. we should tell all the other members/dept leaders about this and have them come as well.

granted, designing the dummy might take a day or two, but once it is done the process will be less awkward and smooth like butter. and as i've said - it will really help the flow, design, and organization of the book. it should help us design a solid final product.

Kromoh & Delphinius, great job guys...I'm so glad you're here.

It would help me a lot to have all the working outlines right next to each other so I'm gonna repost them if you guys don't mind:

Imma post a scheme here that I thought through when reading this thread. I judge myself good with planning, so I think this would help.

These are not meant as specific sections of the book, though they could be. They are more like the topics which will be covered in the book. The small captions are basically for brainstorming - there is no need to use them verbatim.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction
Covering what LDing is, isn't, the benefits of it, how it feels.

Dream and Sleep Science
The basic introduction to sleep physiology, needed to fully comprehend what (lucid) dreams are. Here go sleep cycle, purpose of sleep, physiological processes that occur when sleeping, the mind and body falling asleep at different rates, sleep atonia, insomnia, etc. Explain how many thoughts cross the mind during sleep, and that dreams are only the combination of a highly imaginative state with sleep atonia.

Lucid Dreaming and Science
The concept of lucid dreaming: what it is, how it happens, how different it is from a regular dream, how to tell if it's a lucid dream or not, how lucid dreams were scientifically discovered and studied.

Lucid Dreaming History
Lucid dreaming in various cultures, in medieval and ancient times, dream interpretation, dream yoga, scientific literature.

----

Dream Recall
First off, how important it is; how some people think they don't have dreams when they only don't remember them; different types of dreams (images, storyline, sensations, memory organisation, learning). Why some dreams are easier to remember, why it's easier to remember a dream when you just wake up from it. Dream journals and different ways to keep one. Methods to train and improve dream recall, routines and habits that increase or hinder recall.

Dream-Initiated Techniques
Techniques for having lucid dreams based on being already in a dream and realizing it. Dream signs, Reality Checking, etc.

Wake-Initiated Techniques
Techniques for having lucid dreams based on being awake when starting the technique. basically, WILD in its various form. Falling asleep consciously, visualization techniques, counting techniques, sensation techniques, dream re-entry and chaining, what times WILD is most likely to work (WBTB, afternoon naps, etc).

Aid Techniques
Techniques that may not work for themselves, but better if combined with others. MILD, hypnosis, waking in the middle of the night to write in the DJ.

Pharmacology
Foods and drugs which help with Recall or Lucid Dreams, how to obtain and proper ways to use them (concerning drug half-life, additional effects, etc).

----

Dream Control
What to do as soon as you become lucid, ways to improve clarity and length, stabilising the dream, prolonging the dream when it's about to end. How things in lucid dreams work, how to find what you want, avoiding activities that may make you wake up.

Using Lucid Dreams to Understand Yourself
What dreams are, how the brain works in dreams, why dreams and very emotive experiences. Interpreting dreams (the scientific way), using Lucid Dreams to deal with your subconscious.

Using Lucid Dreams to Solve Issues
How to approach the subconscious mind in dream, bringing up traumas and bad memories, associating new things to them. Self suggestion and self-hypnosis inside dreams. Using dreams to gain confidence, to plan the future, to prepare for a situation.

Activity in Lucid Dreams
Things which are interesting to explore in Lucid Dreams. Lucid tasks. Dream Guides. Funny things that happened to lucid dreamers.

Lucid Dream Philosophy
Things you learn from exploring lucid dreams. Consciousness, value of things, how ephemeral emotions and things are. Discussion about dream ethics.

----

The Lucid Dreaming Community
Lucid dreamers, where to find them, what traits they have in common. Introduction to Dreamviews and to other online communities.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


-

Another thing I suggest: technique descriptions may tend to be long. Let them be long, but add a small table with a summary of the technique afterwards.

I hope I didn't forget anything.




I wrote up an organization outline real quick.

I know it's rough, so if you have any suggestions, please make them right away. I want to get the outline done before the writers start writing.

Introduction~

What is a Lucid Dream?

*Brief description of techniques?*

Dreams as Dreams~

Sleep Science

Cycles

Health

Recall
Myths about dreams
Pharmacy

Dreams as Lucids~

Science
History
Techniques

DILD
WILD
Assisting Techniques

Lucids as Lucids~

Control
Myths about lucids
Issues solved
Exploration of self

*Communities?*

Anecdotes

Things with asterisks are things I could easily drop.

Any suggestions?




1. Introduction
2. History of Lucid Dreaming
3. Aspects of Dreaming
4. Lucid dreaming

What should come next, and in what order? Please post suggestions regarding chapters, chapter names, appendices, and so on. I'm making the following suggestions, but not necessarily in this order:

-overcoming nightmares
-dream control (tutorials on common things like flying should probably be added in this one.)
-lucid experiments
-general awareness (I'd very much like to do a chapter on this)
-dream characters (types of characters can be discussed, we'll try to keep it general . For example the "cookie cutter" brainless ones, the "doppleganger" ones of friends and family, the monsters/antagonizers, the "aware" or wise ones)


I think we can make separate chapters for the big techniques. It seems like this may have been the original plan so it would be nice to stick to that in respect to the people who started this.

-DILD
-MILD
-WILD
-VILD ect.


Appendices

1. TOTM List
2. Other Task List
3. Glossary (or glossary of terms, especially acronyms like MILD, WILD ect.)
4. Endnotes (if we make reference to studies and other works, we can use endnotes to list our sources. We absolutely HAVE to list our sources, either in footnotes or endnotes. It will also be a really great reference.)
5. Index (Pain in the ass to do, but may be easier if the entire book were copied into a decent word processor. Then searches could be done for certain words.)

this might be already planned, i am not sure. but do you think a set of workbook pages would fit into this book well? like pages where the reader could perform activities and then take notes directly in the book?

Originally Posted by adrift

this might be already planned, i am not sure. but do you think a set of workbook pages would fit into this book well? like pages where the reader could perform activities and then take notes directly in the book?

Three cheers for expedient responses adrift? I'm in favor of workbook pages. I've seen them in a few lucid dream books (mainly just a few pages for DJ entries to get the reader started). I'm sure we could incorporate something along the lines of a few activity pages in the latter part of the book.

Crap... My post never showed up. I responded a long time ago.

I'm against the idea... Mainly because every book i've ever had with pages in the back... I never used the pages. Seems like a waste of money, especially if they're going to be made of a different paper/material.

And what would we put on them? The list of goals is already going to be in there, and a DJ should have many many pages so you can read back on your previous dreams. If you have a bunch of DJs, it gets annoying.

Sugarglider11 has replaced Delphinus as the Department Leader

You'll do a great job Glider.

Hey guys, I'd like to run an idea by you--

How about splitting Chapter 3?

The Science of Dreaming

The Psychology of Dreaming


It would make sense to me since none of the psychological theories on why we dream have really been solidly proven yet, and I don't want to put them in a chapter of all hard science. Plus, there are several theories I'd like to cover and I have a feeling it's going to be pretty long. What do you think?

Hey everyone, I really encourage everyone to come here often to brainstorm and help improve upon everything. If nobody helps out nothing will get done.

An Idea I have about the dream journal entries is that instead of saying go to page x-xx just put the entry on the next page so if the reader chooses they can read on normally and skip the entry. I know I wouldn't go to another page to look for a dream journal entry.

Also we should come up with a solid outline. We should all work together to perfect an outline and finally agree on one as the one that will be used in the book.

I will be making a thread for creating the outline.

Might I suggest the chapter on pharmacology be removed as on official chapter and included as an appendix in the back? Just to downplay it's importance a little. Not to mention the placebo effect is getting stronger. http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/m...placebo_effect

Plus it could be seen as giving pharmaceutical advice and could have legal implications in some countries.

There should be a chapter reserved at the back for referencing.

I also suggest we write our references the Harvard way.

Example -

Aserinsky, E; Kleitman, N. (September 1953). "Regularly occurring periods of eye motility and concomitant phenomena, during sleep". Science 118 (3062): 273–274.

I think it is more or less the standard referencing method to use.

Endnotes? We can do those yeah. I would very much like to have that to list all our sources too.