Supplements-do they work or hinder?

[shannyball]

Do Supplements for better lucid dreaming really work ? I am a lucid dreamer, however I don't have crazy and astonishing prophetic travels or insightful conversations with the Dali Lama- my dreams are definitely much more low key than that- my question is about supplements. I read about people who rave about their success. I am wary however about using them and I am afraid that taking anything that alters my chemicals will take away the genuineness of the experience. If I take something before I dream how will I know if it was a real experience or just some crazy concoction my chemical altered brain is coming up with? What are your thoughts? Are these supplements safe or just another gimmick in a bottle to make a quick $19.95? Why am I not able to gain a more spiritual insight from my Lucid dreams? Will taking supplements open my mind to deeper lucid experiences?

[Ajna]

I would recommend for you the book Advanced Lucid Dreaming - The Power of Supplements by Thomas Yuschak, most of your questions will be answered there and the supplements arn't cheap so the book outlines the best ones and how to use them. They are pretty safe if you take them as prescribed in the book. I've had alot of success with supplements but you definitely don't NEED them, it just makes becoming lucid easier - at a $ price. Doing the research before trying anything or buying anything is cheap insurance. The fact that you have intention for more spiritual insight and deeper experience in your LD's will mean that it will inevitably happen as you get more experienced with the concept, and if you let it happen - all in good time.

[Snowy Egypt]

I went ahead and deleted your other thread since it was in the wrong place. Hmm...well, the only supplement I've tried to better my chances of having an LD (was able to obtain would be a better way to phrase it) is B6, which makes dreams more vivid. A lot of my DV friends have taken Gantalamine (spelling is wrong), which has helped them have actual Lucids instead of just vivid dreams. Have you checked the Supplement / Herb / Drug Repository sticky in this sub section? It contains good information about the supplements normally used when trying to Lucid Dream. Or you could just go the natural route. After a few weeks on B6, I weened myself off of it. Either way, practice is needed to Lucid Dream. Just take your time.

[Firewalker]

Do Supplements for better lucid dreaming really work ? I am a lucid dreamer, however I don't have crazy and astonishing prophetic travels or insightful conversations with the Dali Lama- my dreams are definitely much more low key than that- my question is about supplements. I read about people who rave about their success. I am wary however about using them and I am afraid that taking anything that alters my chemicals will take away the genuineness of the experience. If I take something before I dream how will I know if it was a real experience or just some crazy concoction my chemical altered brain is coming up with? What are your thoughts? Are these supplements safe or just another gimmick in a bottle to make a quick $19.95? Why am I not able to gain a more spiritual insight from my Lucid dreams? Will taking supplements open my mind to deeper lucid experiences? Supplements work well for some people, and not very well for others, also some supplements that work great for some won't work at all for others, I bought the Advanced Lucid Dreaming book, and tried several of the recommendations, and got a couple of 10 second lucids out of Galantamine/choline after sleeping 4 to 6 hours and WBTB, after taking 5-HTP before bed, that was it, after that Galantamine didn't do anything for me when I took it at WBTB or at bedtime other than wake it difficult to sleep after WBTB. I have found other supplements work better, Acetyl-L-Carnitine triggered a lucid dream after taking it after sleeping about 6 hours and going WBTB. I haven't really been able to try WBTB with it very much again, but taking it during the day does help me have more vivid dreams. L-Theanene also has helped me have lucid dreams, usually if I take 200mg before bed, wake up after 7 or 8 hours, take 200to 400mg more and sleep a couple of more hours, lots of sleep time seem to be needed, so this is also something I have difficulty doing often. Works well when I do though. Vitamin B6 seemed to work very well for a while in 200 to 250mg doses taken with a glass of milk, and chocolate cake or cookies before bed, but then it quit working and hasn't worked since when I try it. B6 is fairly cheep though, so give it a try, you might get a few lucids out of it. Tyrosine also works sometimes. In my opinion, after trying various supplements, they can sometimes help you to get into the border state of wakefulness and sleepiness, but they don't usually automatically trigger lucid dreams, some like Theanene relax you so it can help for WILD's when you may otherwise be too much awake. Others wake you up like Galantamine, Acetyl-l-Carnitine etc. and I feel you would have to be pretty sleepy for these to work well.

[ZmillA]

They can HELP. And forget about all that "hinder the genuineness" nonsense. Your brain runs on chemicals, your basically just one big chemical, so why not give a little boost?

[Firewalker]

I have changed my mind about supplements. I have decided they generally don't work. I have posted several topics which have "worked" for me. But the problem is they usually only work about 4 times at most, then stop. Why is this? I have decided it is placebo effect for the most part. I hear about a new supplement, or think it might work, so I'm exited and expect it to work. Then it might work. Is it the supplement or placebo? If it was the supplement it should keep working. Another thing, the first time I tried Galantamine/choline I was nervous about it, I read about all the side effects, I had a very short lucid dream. The second time I was still exited. If I remember correctly, I had another short lucid. Then I was calm and not worried about taking it anymore, and it never worked again. I beleive that for the most part the people who have good results on any supplement, it works because they beleive it will. It is similiar to the MILD method of inducing lucid dreams. When you WBTB you have a good chance of becoming lucid anyway, my best lucids were from this method, with no supplements. They would probably have equal success with a sugar pill if they believed it. Others can't keep up the belief and so the supplements stop working or they never work to begin with. If supplements work for you great, but I believe it is the belief not the supplements.

[ZmillA]

I have changed my mind about supplements. I have decided they generally don't work. I have posted several topics which have "worked" for me. But the problem is they usually only work about 4 times at most, then stop. Why is this? I have decided it is placebo effect for the most part. I hear about a new supplement, or think it might work, so I'm exited and expect it to work. Then it might work. Is it the supplement or placebo? If it was the supplement it should keep working. Another thing, the first time I tried Galantamine/choline I was nervous about it, I read about all the side effects, I had a very short lucid dream. The second time I was still exited. If I remember correctly, I had another short lucid. Then I was calm and not worried about taking it anymore, and it never worked again. I beleive that for the most part the people who have good results on any supplement, it works because they beleive it will. It is similiar to the MILD method of inducing lucid dreams. When you WBTB you have a good chance of becoming lucid anyway, my best lucids were from this method, with no supplements. They would probably have equal success with a sugar pill if they believed it. Others can't keep up the belief and so the supplements stop working or they never work to begin with. If supplements work for you great, but I believe it is the belief not the supplements. Well considering they have been proven to effect chemical levels that are associated to dreaming related things, it isn't just placebo. Also just as there are techniques and "guidelines" for LDing, the same exists for using these supplements. You can't just pop one, go to sleep and expect something to happen. And just like you can't just try a technique once, twice, or three times and say it doesn't work, you can't just take them a few times and say they don't do anything.

[shannyball]

Maybe you are simply building a tolorance.

[ZmillA]

Maybe you are simply building a tolorance. this as well.

[Ajna]

The supplements mainly either boost Acetylcholine neurotransmitter levels in the brain which aid memory and promote REM sleep, or they suppress REM causing a 'REM rebound' later in the night. So they boost your ability to have dreams which are longer and easier to recall - this would aid all the lucid dream methods and give you more opportunity to perform a reality check for instance. But taken alone or without any specific method, supplements will not automatically cause you to have lucid dreams, just improve the chances. Also people who have been taking supplements for a while notice that when you find a combo that works, if you keep using it over and over the effectiveness diminishes. So to counter this tolerance you need to take time off from those supplements or change the type you are taking and also the timing and dosage to keep the brain guessing, just like you need to vary physical work outs. But thats just my opinion...

[RunflaCruiser]

I would recommend for you the book Advanced Lucid Dreaming - The Power of Supplements by Thomas Yuschak, most of your questions will be answered there and the supplements arn't cheap so the book outlines the best ones and how to use them. They are pretty safe if you take them as prescribed in the book. I've had alot of success with supplements but you definitely don't NEED them, it just makes becoming lucid easier - at a $ price. Doing the research before trying anything or buying anything is cheap insurance. The fact that you have intention for more spiritual insight and deeper experience in your LD's will mean that it will inevitably happen as you get more experienced with the concept, and if you let it happen - all in good time. One of the best books ever. Even if you have no interest in taking supplements, it puts everything in an easy to understand perspective.

[Firewalker]

Well considering they have been proven to effect chemical levels that are associated to dreaming related things, it isn't just placebo. Also just as there are techniques and "guidelines" for LDing, the same exists for using these supplements. You can't just pop one, go to sleep and expect something to happen. And just like you can't just try a technique once, twice, or three times and say it doesn't work, you can't just take them a few times and say they don't do anything. I understand what you are saying, however I have tried just about every technique I've ever heard about as well. Let me explain my situation. My lucid journey started after reading The Door to December by Dean Koontz. It is a fiction book about a girl who has OBE's. I tried the "method" she used to have them, invisioning a door shining with light and going through it. It worked, I've had several OBE lucids doing this, then a few spontanious ones. I bought Astral projection books, lucid dream books. I would have a short one every so often, but couldn't do it at will, and was getting frustrated. I had some good lucids with WBTB, WILDing, and MILD but they too seemed to not work very often. I bought the Advanced Lucid Dreaming book. I wasted a lot of money on the supplements which as I stated worked very poorly for me, as well as many other supplements I heard about here or thought up on my own. I have tried all the techniques suppossed to help with supplements but that didn't help much either, and when it did, was it really the supplements or the technique? It is my position that it is the technique and the fact that you expect it too work therefore it does. True supplements do boost nuerotransmitters and chemicals in your brain, but does that translate into more vivid dreams, or increased likelihood of becoming lucid? Perhaps, for the first time or two, then your body becomes accustomed to it and at least for me, it doesn't work very well. I know about taking time off from supplements before trying them again, but it didn't matter. I've stopped taking supplements for a couple of days now, if anything I've had more dreams than before, no they weren't lucid, but very few were when I was trying some different supplement every day either. And I've tried Galantamine enough times to know that for me it doesn't do anything, except keep me awake if I take it at WBTB, and make me sick. I know a lot of people like it, fine, I wish you all the best, but could it be that you are just naturally talented anyway, and just believe the supplements are helping? As I said, if you WBTB, take something, and expect it to work your mind may create it for you, if you can do this well you may do fine with just WBTB or MILD methods without supplements.

[Patrickstar12]

I take B12 Choline and Inositol every night before bed. It definately helps with dream vividness and my ability to recall more then just bits of my dreams. as far as help with lucidity...that it doesnt help with at all.

[Firewalker]

Perhaps I shouldn't have stated all that I did against supplements. Perhaps they do help some people, either directly or by placebo, if it works it works. I guess I was just venting some frustration at having tried so many things only to have poor results. But there are plenty of people who do well on Galantamine/choline, B6, and other things. I guess perhaps I just haven't found out what works well for me yet. But after quiting everything, even vitamins for a few days, and I was taking some fairly high dose NOW multivitamins, I started feeling like crap, so I've started taking them again, and am trying Rosemary capsules from Nature Made for lucids. Rosemary is known as the herb of rememberance and is supposed to contain substances which prevent the breakdown of Acetylcholine. I'll see how it goes.

[RunflaCruiser]

good luck! When I took the supps (galant. / choline) for the first few months I thought it was a wonder drug!! I mean, lucid dreams 2 night a week, guaranteed, without even trying at all!! I only did this 2 times a week. Then after about 2 months I had my first time with supps where I didn't have a lucid. Then again. Its like they stopped working. They did work extremely well for the 2 months. I had several lucids every night I used them. Downfall. They took away all my self discipline and made me lazy. --maybe natural is better.

[Nihao]

I have a bit different look at them. They helped me to have my first LD at all. Previously I spent years and apart from some short different experiences I couldn't do it at will. I found my own formula: Melatonin + L-Theanine + Galantamine + Choline that works the best for me almost every time so far. I am happy that anything like that exists and I was able to experience LD. I know how going through the threshold actually looks like while before it was something I only read about with excitement. Kinda Science Fiction. Downfall. They took away all my self discipline and made me lazy. --maybe natural is better. I agree and in the meantime work on getting lucid without suppls. No success yet:\ I stress - that is just my experience and everybody has different story.

[TruthHunter]

I have a bit different look at them. They helped me to have my first LD at all. Previously I spent years and apart from some short different experiences I couldn't do it at will. I found my own formula: Melatonin + L-Theanine + Galantamine + Choline that works the best for me almost every time so far. I am happy that anything like that exists and I was able to experience LD. I know how going through the threshold actually looks like while before it was something I only read about with excitement. Kinda Science Fiction. I agree and in the meantime work on getting lucid without suppls. No success yet:\ I stress - that is just my experience and everybody has different story. How many times have you tried this combo? My take is that you may have a limited window for it to work. The mind has a arousal set point that is difficult to disturb. If you can get past a certain threshold, you probably can have LD's without supplements. It's like making a beachhead... Like EJ Gold's "Attack at Dawn". Use every technique you can. Intention is important. Have a plan when you become lucid. Don't make it too specific, let your Subconscious have plenty of leeway to work it out its own way. I have had some success with supplements, but it's too early to tell, IMO. Taking them too often may be a good way to have them stop working. I know that Dr Persinger found that the "God helmet" caused the most long term change when used only once a week. Could the same be true for effective supplement combo's?

[Nihao]

How many times have you tried this combo? My take is that you may have a limited window for it to work. Just a couple of times. I worked it out recently. I used previously only Galantamine + Choline but apart from the first time I couldn't fell back asleep - my mind was too alerted like a bulb turned on. So the other two help me get a balance. It works perfectly so far perhaps I use it about every 4 days or longer. If it stops working I will start to moan and join dry spell community