SMOKING. Tobbaco and possible negative effects on Lucid Dreaming?

Ok from what research i've done, it would seem that nicotine can cause long term and short term desensitization of the acetylcholine receptors.

Seeing as these receptors are vital for lucid dreaming, Dosn't that mean that smokers are going to be creating problems for themselves (big problems) when it comes to long term lucid dream ability?

I'm asking this to anyone who knows more on the subject?
Im currently giving up smoking (mostly for this reason)
and am hoping the damage isn't already done (I still have lucid dreams)
and have smoked for many years....
I'm worried.

Also wondering if anyone knows ways to rectify any damage of desensitization? would piracetam work? If so how?

Sketch! Is this true?

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Originally Posted by Sony86

Sketch! Is this true?

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Ha!Ha! You fucking moron! :)

who do you think you are coming to this thread to talk smack?
i dont recall anyone asking for your opinion much less your help or your insults. Grow up man'.

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Originally Posted by juiceyfruit1714

who do you think you are coming to this thread to talk smack?
i dont recall anyone asking for your opinion much less your help or your insults. Grow up man'.

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I know, right?

Actually, I have had the same question. I'm a smoker and have been having trouble LD'ing even with supplements. If anyone knows the answer here, I'd appreciate some feedback without the childish flaming.

I wish I knew...I've been smoking for about 6 years now(regularly anyhow) and it has occasionally floated into my head that the reason I'm not LDing could be from that....

I wouldn't doubt it. I mean, inhaling tar and nicotine can't be good for any part of your body.

You do know that smoking has other negative effects on your body than just not being able to lucid dream, right? Lung Cancer... throat cancer... bad teeth.. bad heart... bad breath... weakness... shortening life... oh I could go on!

yeah, but it depends on how much you smoke. I smoke maybe 2-4 cigarettes on the weekends only. The people who develop lung cancer and all that crap are the ones that smoke a pack or more a day. While doing that your giving the lung no time to repair. if you smoke a couple a week your lungs get a damn break from all those toxins!

Well I bought nicotine patches for the purpose of HAVING lucid dreams.

well i've been smokin for a while now too, i'm actually a pretty heavy smoker.
I think smoking has alot to do with lucid dreams but not mentally.
Breathing has alot to do with becoming lucid(or any other state of mind for that matter),and we all know (thanks to the surgeon general up there) that smoking damages our lungs. If you want a better shot at attaining lucidity, just dont smoke before bed or whenever you going to attempt..atleast give them a rest for a little bit.
I hope this helps at all lol

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Originally Posted by TalkingHead

Well I bought nicotine patches for the purpose of HAVING lucid dreams.

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Well that's exactly my point. Its the very reason that nicotine can help lucid dreaming that smoking and regular use would have the opposite effect.

Nicotine if overused will cause cause short term and possibly long term desensitization of the acetylcholine receptors.

I've been reading a lot on this, and it looks pretty clear that it WILL do damage to Lucid Dreaming.

Any smokers on here want to try a joint quitting and record how it effect dreaming?

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Well that's exactly my point. Its the very reason that nicotine can help lucid dreaming that smoking and regular use would have the opposite effect.

Nicotine if overused will cause cause short term and possibly long term desensitization of the acetylcholine receptors.

I've been reading a lot on this, and it looks pretty clear that it WILL do damage to Lucid Dreaming.

Any smokers on here want to try a joint quitting and record how it effect dreaming?

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Yes I was afraid of that. Any smokers want my patches?

Can someone post online articles they have read on this subject here?

I'll take em! hahah

Just sayin', I'm sure every smoker will agree with me, It's a bad habit.

Smoking is indeed a bad habit and it does produce short and longterm damage to the nicotine receptors in the brain. However, according to a friendly psychiatrist I know (along with some reading I've done on the topic) nicotine receptors in the brain are separate and distinct from acetycholine receptors. Smoking does not affect production or re-uptake of acetycholine.

As a smoker, when people tell me that it has bad effects on my health... First I want to smack them for trying to be a smart ass.

(really guys, I'm not posting this to insult anyone here, I'm just sharing my opinion - not insulting you guys, again - not insulting.)

(erghhhmmm, with that said...)

I have been smoking for 8 years. Heavily. I'm 20. I started smoking when I was 12. I have lucid dreams.

It is kind of insulting to me for you to say that you can't have lucid dreams if you're a smoker... Maybe if you believe that there's a reason you can't have lucid dreams you will turn that into a reality for yourself. Again - power of the mind people, power of the mind....

.... And wait - cigarettes are bad for you? I could have sworn they had like, vitamin c, and ginseng, b-12, and like.... herbal supplements and stuff. You mean these things are bad for me? Really?

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Any smokers on here want to try a joint quitting and record how it effect dreaming?

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If you are looking to quit, I would suggest reading The Easyway to Stop Smoking by Allen Carr. It works really well. Here is a link from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Way-Stop-...3074148&sr=8-1

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Originally Posted by Sir Mark

However, according to a friendly psychiatrist I know (along with some reading I've done on the topic) nicotine receptors in the brain are separate and distinct from acetycholine receptors.

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Well, that contradicts everything I've read on the subject, which says that nicotinic receptors are a subtype of acetylcholine receptors. So it would be interesting if you could provide some citations for these claims.

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Smoking does not affect production or re-uptake of acetycholine.

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I think that's correct, but do you dispute that nicotine is an acetylcholine agonist?

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Originally Posted by cacophony

As a smoker, when people tell me that it has bad effects on my health... First I want to smack them for trying to be a smart ass.

(really guys, I'm not posting this to insult anyone here, I'm just sharing my opinion - not insulting you guys, again - not insulting.)

(erghhhmmm, with that said...)

I have been smoking for 8 years. Heavily. I'm 20. I started smoking when I was 12. I have lucid dreams.

It is kind of insulting to me for you to say that you can't have lucid dreams if you're a smoker... Maybe if you believe that there's a reason you can't have lucid dreams you will turn that into a reality for yourself. Again - power of the mind people, power of the mind....

.... And wait - cigarettes are bad for you? I could have sworn they had like, vitamin c, and ginseng, b-12, and like.... herbal supplements and stuff. You mean these things are bad for me? Really?

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I'm a smoker too (or at least was until 2 days ago)
The problem with your "its all in the mind" argument, is that Nicotine IS a chemical, and a chemical that is pretty clearly linked to lucid dreaming and the relevant receptors in the brain.

In you're argument of "power of the mind"
then try drinking an entire bottle of vodka, then using the power of your mind to become instantly sober. Is'nt going to happen. Why? because like smoking, its an altered state due to an external alteration of your brain chemistry.


Anyway, if you're so pro "power of the mind"... why do you need to smoke?

No offence, like i said, until 2 days ago i was a smoker.
I'm just not going to let some crappy addiction ruin the subject im really interested in OR my health.

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Originally Posted by Thor

Well, that contradicts everything I've read on the subject, which says that nicotinic receptors are a subtype of acetylcholine receptors. So it would be interesting if you could provide some citations for these claims.



I think that's correct, but do you dispute that nicotine is an acetylcholine agonist?

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I stand corrected. Yes, it would seem that nicotonic receptors ARE a subtype of acetycholine receptor. I'll have to have another chat with my buddy the psychiatrist.

No, I don't.

As a smoker of many years, if the information in Yuschak's book is correct, I have damaged those receptors longterm. I've tried the Galantamine/Choline combination with limited success in regard to lucidity. I tend to believe that maybe it is due to my smoking. Therefore, I am going to refocus my supplement regimen to focus on REM suppresion/rebound and dopamine enhancement, hopefully bypassing the damage done by my lifestyle choices to achieve higher level LD's.

Im sure that any damage can be undone.
Probably just by giving up and giving your body time to adapt to living without nicotine. I expect once you no longer crave nicotine it would mean that the receptors are starting to heal.

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Originally Posted by Sir Mark

As a smoker of many years, if the information in Yuschak's book is correct, I have damaged those receptors longterm. I've tried the Galantamine/Choline combination with limited success in regard to lucidity. I tend to believe that maybe it is due to my smoking. Therefore, I am going to refocus my supplement regimen to focus on REM suppresion/rebound and dopamine enhancement, hopefully bypassing the damage done by my lifestyle choices to achieve higher level LD's.

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If it may be any consolation to you, I used to smoke too (though that was many years ago and lasted for only two years), but it hasn't prevented me from having lucid dreams today. I've had many lucids with supplements and even some without them. In fact, the most successful supplement for me has been nicotine patches. So maybe it suggests that the long term desensitation of nicotinic receptors is reversible.

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Originally Posted by Sir Mark

I stand corrected. Yes, it would seem that nicotonic receptors ARE a subtype of acetycholine receptor. I'll have to have another chat with my buddy the psychiatrist.

No, I don't.

As a smoker of many years, if the information in Yuschak's book is correct, I have damaged those receptors longterm. I've tried the Galantamine/Choline combination with limited success in regard to lucidity. I tend to believe that maybe it is due to my smoking. Therefore, I am going to refocus my supplement regimen to focus on REM suppresion/rebound and dopamine enhancement, hopefully bypassing the damage done by my lifestyle choices to achieve higher level LD's.

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Okay, call me stupid but I don't know if trying reverse effects done by 20 years of smoking, while still smoking will really work. Good luck though.

My guess would be that after you stop craving, that would probably be a sign that desensitisation is reversing. As i'd guess that means that your brain chemistry is returning to its normal levels and not expecting an external source of nicotine, so presumably the receptors would highten sensitivity and return to "normal."

Seems to make sense.
I'd also expect that during quitting that lucid dreaming would probably not happen.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I'm a smoker too (or at least was until 2 days ago)
The problem with your "its all in the mind" argument, is that Nicotine IS a chemical, and a chemical that is pretty clearly linked to lucid dreaming and the relevant receptors in the brain.

In you're argument of "power of the mind"
then try drinking an entire bottle of vodka, then using the power of your mind to become instantly sober. Is'nt going to happen. Why? because like smoking, its an altered state due to an external alteration of your brain chemistry.


Anyway, if you're so pro "power of the mind"... why do you need to smoke?

No offence, like i said, until 2 days ago i was a smoker.
I'm just not going to let some crappy addiction ruin the subject im really interested in OR my health.

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I'm sorry, but you're coming off like an asshole.

I take it back, I'm not sorry.

Anyhow...


I smoke because
I like it.

I smoke because
I like feeling like a dragon.

I smoke because
I like killing myself slowly.

I smoke because
I like pissing off non-smokers.

I smoke because
it's good for you.

I smoke because
of anxiety and paranoia.

I smoke because
I am a smoker.


WITH THAT SAID:

I say this "power of the mind" crap because I HAVE LUCID DREAMS and I am a
HEAVY CHAIN SMOKER.

AGHEM.

If nicotine makes you unable to smoke well... I'LL BE DAMNED!
I must be some kind of walking miracle. My god, this must mean that I'm a prodigy - nay, some sort of GOD that has come here to.... no, I must just be immortal/immune to human death-traps such as cigarettes.

If I wanted to quit smoking - well, I probably wouldn't because I don't want to. If I truly wanted to quit smoking I would have at least tried by now.

And come on - I'm immune to death, alcohol doesn't even effect me. This one time, after drinking like eight fifths of tequila I had to fight a crocodile, and I was a little tipsy so I just decided to sober up within 15 seconds and ended up beating the crocodile down (then about fifteen more came and I fought them blindfolded while singing the star spangled banner, pausing for brief moments to take large puffs of my cigarette... actually I had four lit cigarettes in one hand and had grown to be about 38 feet tall. Oh, what a glorious day that was).

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Originally Posted by cacophony

I'm sorry, but you're coming off like an asshole.

I take it back, I'm not sorry.

Anyhow...


I smoke because
I like it.

I smoke because
I like feeling like a dragon.

I smoke because
I like killing myself slowly.

I smoke because
I like pissing off non-smokers.

I smoke because
it's good for you.

I smoke because
of anxiety and paranoia.

I smoke because
I am a smoker.


WITH THAT SAID:

I say this "power of the mind" crap because I HAVE LUCID DREAMS and I am a
HEAVY CHAIN SMOKER.

AGHEM.

If nicotine makes you unable to smoke well... I'LL BE DAMNED!
I must be some kind of walking miracle. My god, this must mean that I'm a prodigy - nay, some sort of GOD that has come here to.... no, I must just be immortal/immune to human death-traps such as cigarettes.

If I wanted to quit smoking - well, I probably wouldn't because I don't want to. If I truly wanted to quit smoking I would have at least tried by now.

And come on - I'm immune to death, alcohol doesn't even effect me. This one time, after drinking like eight fifths of tequila I had to fight a crocodile, and I was a little tipsy so I just decided to sober up within 15 seconds and ended up beating the crocodile down (then about fifteen more came and I fought them blindfolded while singing the star spangled banner, pausing for brief moments to take large puffs of my cigarette... actually I had four lit cigarettes in one hand and had grown to be about 38 feet tall. Oh, what a glorious day that was).

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I don't care if i'm coming across like an arsehole.
It's not a popularity contest, it's just a place to discuss dreams.
Plus, i have no problems with you smoking, knock yourself out.
I'm just talking about why i am stopping smoking, from some pretty sound evidence, and think other smokers or potential smokers should know the same information.

And as for the reasons you smoke...

You smoke because you're an addict.
The rest are just excuses you make up to try and justify your addiction.

If you really disagree, prove me wrong and smoke herbal nicotine free cigarettes for the next month. You'll still be able to pretend you're a dragon and all the other excuses..
But you wont, because you smoke because you're an addict.

My mum was trying to give up smoking a few years ago and she was using nicotine patches.
She was totaly hopeless at it and started smoking while having the nicotine patches on her arms.

With all of this nicotine in her body this is when she first experienced lucid dreaming, without even knowing what it was. The nicotine induced nightmares and she tried to change the endings and ended up lucid dreaming!

She's been a smoker for 20 years, so it's interesting as maybe not all smokers are doomed to being unable to lucid dream?

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Originally Posted by urushiol

My mum was trying to give up smoking a few years ago and she was using nicotine patches.
She was totaly hopeless at it and started smoking while having the nicotine patches on her arms.

With all of this nicotine in her body this is when she first experienced lucid dreaming, without even knowing what it was. The nicotine induced nightmares and she tried to change the endings and ended up lucid dreaming!

She's been a smoker for 20 years, so it's interesting as maybe not all smokers are doomed to being unable to lucid dream?

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Yeah i think you're right.
I've smoked for a long time, and have had lucid dreams whilst smoking.
Im just concerned that maybe it's hindering my progress.
I think the best attitude is to be cautious, assume it's not going to do any good and use it as one of the many, many reasons not to smoke.

Still giving up is difficult, it's driving me to distraction.
And for the first time i can remember i dreamt about smoking last night... so that's odd. Don't recall a single dream of smoking WHILST smoking.
Still maybe i can use that to promote lucidity in itself.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I don't care if i'm coming across like an arsehole.
It's not a popularity contest, it's just a place to discuss dreams.
Plus, i have no problems with you smoking, knock yourself out.
I'm just talking about why i am stopping smoking, from some pretty sound evidence, and think other smokers or potential smokers should know the same information.

And as for the reasons you smoke...

You smoke because you're an addict.
The rest are just excuses you make up to try and justify your addiction.

If you really disagree, prove me wrong and smoke herbal nicotine free cigarettes for the next month. You'll still be able to pretend you're a dragon and all the other excuses..
But you wont, because you smoke because you're an addict.

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Our vices make it bearable enough to know our lives our shit and to not give a fuck. They make it bearable enough to help us on our way.

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Originally Posted by cacophony

Our vices make it bearable enough to know our lives our shit and to not give a fuck. They make it bearable enough to help us on our way.

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How very Emo.
Personally i think life is really quite lovely and amazing. All a matter of how you decide to look at it i suppose. How'd that saying go?
"Two looked out through prison bars, one saw mud, the other stars"

Still, the worse vice is advice, so whatever floats your boat.

You shouldn't be smoking tobacco anyways. :shock:

Other than tobacco, the leaf of every other plant on earth tastes like shit, burns your throat and has no substantial pleasurable effects. Then there is tobacco, tastes amazing, smoother than air, and has a wide range of beneficial psychoactive effects. Call it coincidence, but to me its a gift.

For me it works wonders for my ADD, anxiety, memory, energy, and mood. Not to mention its the greatest LD enhancer.

Heres some links about the neuroprotective and nootropic effects of nicotine.


NEUROPROTECTION:

A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION FOR NICOTINE’S NEUROPROTECTIVE EFFECT
Nicotine's protective effect against neurodegenerative disorders
Investigating the Receptor-independent Neuroprotective Mechanisms of Nicotine in Mitochondria
Study Supports New Theory For Nicotine's Protective Effect Against Neurodegenerative Disorders
Neuroprotective Effects of Nicotine Against Salsolinolinduced
New Theory On How Nicotine Protects The Brain
Cigarette Smoking May Lower Rates of Neurodegenerative Diseases like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's


NOOTROPIC EFFECTS:

Mechanism of nicotine's learning effects explored
Nicotine Metabolite May Improve Memory, Protect Against Disease
Nicotine-Like Drugs Can Enhance Learning, Memory In Rat Model Of Alzheimer's Disease
NEW STUDIES FIND THAT NICOTINE, OR A SIMILAR SUBSTANCE, MAY IMPROVE MEMORY AND PROTECT AGAINST DISEASE; ONE DAY MAY FIND USE AS TREATMENT FOR DISORDERS
Nicotinic effects on cognitive function: behavioral
characterization, pharmacological specification,
and anatomic localization
Nicotine Linked to Enhanced Memory
Nicotine for Memory Loss
Chronic nicotine improves working and reference memory performance
and reduces hippocampal NGF in aged female rats


Theres many more studies supporting the benefits of nicotine.

Ofcourse it can be harmful to your body, but like with all things if you just use it moderately the risks are reduced to almost nothing.

It's not the nicotine that is so harmful, although it is a poison and can kill at low dosages. The main problems are all the other chemicals that go along with cigarettes, including the tar and carbon monoxide just to name two out of thousands.

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Originally Posted by Fiddler's Green

It's not the nicotine that is so harmful, although it is a poison and can kill at low dosages. The main problems are all the other chemicals that go along with cigarettes, including the tar and carbon monoxide just to name two out of thousands.

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Like I said, moderation is key.

Tons of things we consume are harmful, toxic, carcinogenic, etc. like cane sugar, fried/grilled food, coffee, the computer you are typing on, medications, fats, etc.. It doesn't mean you should completely avoid them, just don't overdue it.

I don't smoke, so I don't really pay attention to it and I can't really add anything.

But I've read about this a lot on DV and I'm thinking of using it to help my mom quit smoking ;) Hopefully since nothing else motivates her, her love of LDing will do the job ;) Plus from a behavioral aspect she could probably smoke in LDs and get the same relaxing effect hahaha

I agree, but most of those things you just mentioned I could not use to make an easy poison. It only takes about 50mg of nicotine to drop a person. Now I'm not going to explain how readers could extract that tiny amount of nicotine, suffice to say that it is very easy.

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Originally Posted by Shift

I don't smoke, so I don't really pay attention to it and I can't really add anything.

But I've read about this a lot on DV and I'm thinking of using it to help my mom quit smoking ;) Hopefully since nothing else motivates her, her love of LDing will do the job ;) Plus from a behavioral aspect she could probably smoke in LDs and get the same relaxing effect hahaha

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Ya, or at least greatly reduce the amount she smokes. To me the most anyone should smoke is 10 cigs a day, I typically have around 5. I absolutely love tobacco and I still can't fathom how people smoke 3 to 4 packs a day, that to me is blatant drug abuse.

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Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Ya, or at least greatly reduce the amount she smokes. To me the most anyone should smoke is 10 cigs a day, I typically have around 5. I absolutely love tobacco and I still can't fathom how people smoke 3 to 4 packs a day, that to me is blatant drug abuse.

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lmao to me the entire thing is blatant drug abuse. I guess the one thing I can be truly thankful for about her smoking is that I am so turned off of the entire addiction that I've never even tried. It's something I find completely revolting, and sadly she does too :( Being able to literally light up and smoke, without consuming any of the toxins, in a lucid dream could really be beneficial. I'm gonna recommend it to her and see what happens, because it's getting to the point where she's better at LDing than I am, and her dream control is 100% :shock: (so jealous....)

Smoking tobacco is clearly only for total bad asses.

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Originally Posted by Fiddler's Green

I agree, but most of those things you just mentioned I could not use to make an easy poison. It only takes about 50mg of nicotine to drop a person. Now I'm not going to explain how readers could extract that tiny amount of nicotine, suffice to say that it is very easy.

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Weight potency is meaningless, its all relative. Nicotine's therapeutic dose is further under its toxic dose than most drugs. Meaning the amount of nicotine typically consumed by a smoker is less toxic than the average dose of many common prescription or over the counter drugs.

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Originally Posted by Shift

lmao to me the entire thing is blatant drug abuse. I guess the one thing I can be truly thankful for about her smoking is that I am so turned off of the entire addiction that I've never even tried. It's something I find completely revolting, and sadly she does too :( Being able to literally light up and smoke, without consuming any of the toxins, in a lucid dream could really be beneficial. I'm gonna recommend it to her and see what happens, because it's getting to the point where she's better at LDing than I am, and her dream control is 100% :shock: (so jealous....)

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Congrats on your 1000th post btw!!

Personally I don't feel I abuse tobacco, I see it as a medication, I get many benefits and I doubt there are significant risks at the quantity I am using. Plus I am not even slightly addicted, I've gone for long periods without cigarettes many times and the only difference is I lose the many benefits of nicotine, but I don't feel withdrawal at all.

I'm not saying everyone should go out and by a pack, but for me it has been a great gift, plus I love the taste and feel of a quality cigarette.

I would never smoke the commercial garbage they sell in gas stations and drug stores. I like quality tobacco like export "a" or marshall mcgearty.

i smoked for 8 years. Atleast a pack a day.

I quit and havent smoked in atleast 8 more years.

I have lucids and tons of clear dreams all the time.

I dont think smoking affected anything.

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Originally Posted by RunflaCruiser

i smoked for 8 years. Atleast a pack a day.

I quit and havent smoked in atleast 8 more years.

I have lucids and tons of clear dreams all the time.

I dont think smoking affected anything.

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Like with most drugs, once you exceed the ceiling dose you are likely to lose the therapeutic effects and instead end up with side effects and dependency.

i needed to bump this because im going to quit smoking and i thought this thread was an interesting read...