Thread: Melatonin

I haven't been able to give LDing much effort lately, but its the weekend and because I have little homework over this weekend, I'm dedicating it to dreaming and nothing else. My question is, can I get Melatonin off the shelf at my local drug store, and how much should I get and take? How much of an effect does it have on recall and vividness? What about when paired with B6 and B12?

Thanks

I picked up some melatonin in a Shoppers Drug Mart. It was in the sleep aids section.

There were pills, a liquid which you place under the tounge before bed and chocolate flavor dissolvable strips, I picked the strips because I am a chocoholic. They didn't cost that much either, I think about 6 dollars if I remember correctly.

I don't know what it will do when taken with b6, I haven't gotten around to testing that out yet.

If I'm not mistaken, somewhere around 3mg is the recommended dosage. (I need to pick up some more, soon, now that you mention it.)

Alone, it will keep you from waking up from dreams, as easily. You will sleep much more soundly and should get your full 8hr (give or take) sleep period. It doesn't really effect recall or vividness, specifically, in my opinion. But, when taken with B6, you get the (often intense) benefit of having strong, chaotic, b6 induced dreams, while standing much less of a chance of waking up, during them. This is a bit of a double-edged sword though because it's much easier to get stuck in a bad situation, in your dream, and not be able to find a way out. You can find yourself feeling "trapped" inside of the b6-induced vividness. Not always a bad thing, of course - just depends on how you handle it.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

- just depends on how you handle it.[/b]

I think we know how you would handle it!

I really haven't noticed much effect from melatonin, dream-wise; I keep some 3 mg sublingual quick-release, and some 5 mg extended-release around for nights that I'm afraid I won't be able to sleep, but my bf eats 'em all. And he never remembers a dream...but that's even when he doesn't take it. I really couldn't say what it does for my dreams, plus or minus.

The B6 and B12 do help with vividness for me, which of course can be a lucid-inducer. Of all the dream-enhancers (nicotine, Calea Z, etc.) these seem to be as effective, with less negative (nightmare and/or extremely unpleasant dream) effects. I occasionally take 200-300 mg of B6 with (I think) it's 2000 mcg of B12. Works sometimes.

Good luck. Let us know what it does for you.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

If I'm not mistaken, somewhere around 3mg is the recommended dosage. (I need to pick up some more, soon, now that you mention it.)

Alone, it will keep you from waking up from dreams, as easily. You will sleep much more soundly and should get your full 8hr (give or take) sleep period. It doesn't really effect recall or vividness, specifically, in my opinion. But, when taken with B6, you get the (often intense) benefit of having strong, chaotic, b6 induced dreams, while standing much less of a chance of waking up, during them. This is a bit of a double-edged sword though because it's much easier to get stuck in a bad situation, in your dream, and not be able to find a way out. You can find yourself feeling "trapped" inside of the b6-induced vividness. Not always a bad thing, of course - just depends on how you handle it.[/b]

Much Respect

Like all the other people above me posted, Melatonin doesn't help with dreaming itself at all. It does help on keeping you asleep, and falling asleep... which could be beneficial if you have a hard time getting into the trance state of WILDing, or if you think you plan on having a smooth night's sleep. Like Oneironaut said, it would also help you stay in a dream longer, without waking up as easily.

As far as B-12 goes though, I remember reading a while ago that it doesn't have any effect on dreaming... B-6 and B-12 are two completely different vitamins, and from what I remember, only B-6 has the increased-dream factor. Can anyone else give an input on this, just in case I'm completely wrong?

Originally Posted by tyrantt23

As far as B-12 goes though, I remember reading a while ago that it doesn't have any effect on dreaming... B-6 and B-12 are two completely different vitamins, and from what I remember, only B-6 has the increased-dream factor. Can anyone else give an input on this, just in case I'm completely wrong? [/b]

I only added the B12 because I read somewhere here that it was synergistic with B6...and it anecdotally it helps. Other than that, nothing I know of. (It's kind of funny, the dose is like 33,000 X RDA, or maybe I am off by an order of magnitude...I haven't noticed any ill effects yet....)

B12 helps the production of a chemical in you brain, can't remember wihich ATM, which helps dreaming. I think...

I recommend the chewable peppermint melatonin from trader joes. it's 500mcg and comes in a bottle of 100 tablets for $3.99.

3mg is a megadose for me. If I want to use melatonin I have to take a 3mg tab and bite off a tiny granule of it, probably no more than .1 or .2 mg (and my 100% RDA of B6 right there, it's a mel/B6 combo pill), and go with that. If I take any more, I will wake up feeling shitheaded, even after (especially after?) 8-9 hours of sleep. It's not drowsiness per se, but something like zombification. I think that might be entirely the B6 overdose's effects, though.

As for the B6, whenever I take it in significant amounts (which is only when I take melatonin in drastic amounts, same pill), it shoots my dreams to hell. It's like taking a normal, perfectly decent dream and settling a hurricane down on top of it all night long. Just noise and static and meaningless jumbles... it's horrible. I really despise B6 as a dream aid.

Sounds like fun! Thanks for the assistance guys.

I just picked some up. $10 for a thing of 30, 3mg dissolving (chocolate mind flavoured (Vex ) strips. Were the only ones I could find

I tried a pretty massive dose of melatonin last night. I read at erowid the story of the guy who pretty much overdosed himself and thought to myself ok, wtf. I have used it before in varying dosages, first 3mg then after reading somewhere that could be "way too much" I tried 1.5mg then .75mg with little or no noticable effects. So, last night about half an hour before I went to dream I took 15mg. I would have to say that there were definitely noticable effects. I fell asleep practically before my head hit the pillow, then I proceeded to have 2 intense dreams (read all about them in my journal if you want). In the morning it took me about half an hour to shake off the "hangover" which just sorta left me feeling groggy and still tired. I'm going to try again tonight. I don't plan to make a constant habit out of it though, just sorta "fits" with my theory about "getting too much sleep" and an increase in dream recall. Eating a handfull of melatonin just fakes out my brain, making it think I've gotten too much sleep.

Oh yeah, I dunno if this is old news at this point, but melatonin is available in Canaduh now, I got me a big-ass bottle at Costco, I actually DID an RC when I saw them on the shelf by accident, I think it was $6 or so for 160 3mg sublinguals... Mmmmm minty.. aaggghhhh

Originally Posted by Phydeaux_3

I tried a pretty massive dose of melatonin last night. I read at erowid the story of the guy who pretty much overdosed himself and thought to myself ok, wtf. I have used it before in varying dosages, first 3mg then after reading somewhere that could be "way too much" I tried 1.5mg then .75mg with little or no noticable effects. So, last night about half an hour before I went to dream I took 15mg. I would have to say that there were definitely noticable effects. I fell asleep practically before my head hit the pillow, then I proceeded to have 2 intense dreams (read all about them in my journal if you want). In the morning it took me about half an hour to shake off the "hangover" which just sorta left me feeling groggy and still tired. I'm going to try again tonight. I don't plan to make a constant habit out of it though, just sorta "fits" with my theory about "getting too much sleep" and an increase in dream recall. Eating a handfull of melatonin just fakes out my brain, making it think I've gotten too much sleep.

Oh yeah, I dunno if this is old news at this point, but melatonin is available in Canaduh now, I got me a big-ass bottle at Costco, I actually DID an RC when I saw them on the shelf by accident, I think it was $6 or so for 160 3mg sublinguals... Mmmmm minty.. aaggghhhh
[/b]

I would very cautious about expecting melatonin to help with dream recall, let alone Lucid dreams. Melatonin
will help you sleep - very deeply.

Deep/sedative induced sleep will prevent periodic awakenings during the night. Without those awakenings, you'll
sleep right through your dreams never waking up and proceeding to the beginning of your sleep cycle (stages 1-3).
At this point, the dreams you have are lost forever.

I'm not sure if science understands this precisely, but it's well accepted that in order to inprint a dream into
your memory, you need to wake up out of it.

Melatonin decreases the probability of that event

Originally Posted by DrTechnical

I would very cautious about expecting melatonin to help with dream recall, let alone Lucid dreams. Melatonin
will help you sleep - very deeply.

Deep/sedative induced sleep will prevent periodic awakenings during the night. Without those awakenings, you'll
sleep right through your dreams never waking up and proceeding to the beginning of your sleep cycle (stages 1-3).
At this point, the dreams you have are lost forever.

I'm not sure if science understands this precisely, but it's well accepted that in order to inprint a dream into
your memory, you need to wake up out of it.

Melatonin decreases the probability of that event

I've been doing a bit of googling on melatonin lately and have found everything from it being banned in health food stores in Canada and England. to it being useful in the treatment of cancer and other diseases, to it not having any serious side effects even when taken in very high doses, to their being cases of people trying unsuccessfully to commit suicide by taking a bottle of melatonin. So I guess a person just needs to decide for themself what a safe doseage of melatonin might be for them.

One thing is for sure though, melatonin can help a person sleep very deeply.

In my own experiments with melatonin I began taking a single 3mg pill a night before going to bed. It may have helped me sleep a little better, but I'm not sure because I also take 900mg of St Johns wort for the seritonin to be more alert and hopefully becoming lucid in my dreams.

Then I began taking a couple 3mg pills each night before going to bed.
This seemed to help a little in getting to sleep, and I began having really vivid dreams which I was able to wake up from and recall easily, sometimes after every dream.

Since taking a couple 3mg meltonin pills seemed to work so well I decided to try taking 3 melatonin pills last night.

3 seemed to be a little too many because I not only slept through all of my dreams without waking up from them, but didn't even remember them initially after waking up. However, after being up for about a minute I received a couple of thoughts that then triggered the recall of a couple of really vivid dreams.

The next time I woke up the same thing happened. I remembered no dreams upon initially waking up, but then got a couple of thoughts which triggered the recall of 3 more really vivid dreams.

So, for me melatonin seems to help in having vivid dreams, although taking too much makes it more difficult to wake up, and remember dreams.

I suspect that there's an n-shaped curve in terms of melatonin supplementation versus dream vividity/recall. I think why a little supplementation ("little" being pretty vague here) can help and a lot hurt is because we all almost with exception suffer from decreased production levels of melatonin, as an unfortunate result of living in a modern society with artificial lights screwing with our circadian rhythms all the time. Conservative supplementation can bring us back to a level of sleepiness and deep sleep that we ought to be getting in the first place, and in such a circumstance I think it definitely helps with all aspects of dreaming. Go beyond that, and you'll start tricking your brain into thinking it's dark all the time, or even some state beyond that, where your sleep cycles are hopelessly muddled up.

My take, anyways...

edit: for the record, I find something as small as between .2 and .5 mg to be ideal for me. Any more and I tend to feel zombified in the morning, and my dream recall suffers.

I would very cautious about expecting melatonin to help with dream recall, let alone Lucid dreams. Melatonin
will help you sleep - very deeply.

Deep/sedative induced sleep will prevent periodic awakenings during the night. Without those awakenings, you'll
sleep right through your dreams never waking up and proceeding to the beginning of your sleep cycle (stages 1-3).
At this point, the dreams you have are lost forever.

I'm not sure if science understands this precisely, but it's well accepted that in order to imprint a dream into
your memory, you need to wake up out of it.

Melatonin decreases the probability of that event[/b]

Wrong, and big wrong. Many people wake up, especially here, wake up after a good 8 hours sleep and remember quite a few dreams. Some cases 3, even sometimes 6. I personally have woken up after a 10 hour sleep and remembered 2 dreams. They're hardly lost forever, even after waking up and not remembering a dream, people sometimes end up remembering dreams later in the day. Be it through a trigger such as a scene, sound, smell, or just it randomly popping into their head.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Wrong, and big wrong. Many people wake up, especially here, wake up after a good 8 hours sleep and remember quite a few dreams. Some cases 3, even sometimes 6. I personally have woken up after a 10 hour sleep and remembered 2 dreams. They're hardly lost forever, even after waking up and not remembering a dream, people sometimes end up remembering dreams later in the day. Be it through a trigger such as a scene, sound, smell, or just it randomly popping into their head. [/b]

I think you're misinterpreting.

You can easily have two concurrent dreams, wake up out of them and remember them as two
independent dreams. Dreams tend to jump from scene to scene - and this often fools one into believing
that they had multiple dreams, or that the dream lasted very long, maybe hours or days ...

Yes, I agree that people sometimes see a queue during the day that helps them remember a dream from
the previous night. This does not preclude my statement which is a well documented scientific fact. If you cycle
out of stage 5 without waking - those specific dreams are gone - never to be retrieved from memory.

Show me the scientific proof.

Its hardly true. Our dreams, while in our head, are things we experience, just like everyday life. They can be remembered, and be part of our memory even if we sleep through them and through stages with our without waking. As well, we dream during all stages of during sleep. They are just usually very dull and the hardest to remember during the early stages of sleep.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Show me the scientific proof.

Its hardly true. Our dreams, while in our head, are things we experience, just like everyday life. They can be remembered, and be part of our memory even if we sleep through them and through stages with our without waking. As well, we dream during all stages of during sleep. They are just usually very dull and the hardest to remember during the early stages of sleep.[/b]

My time is limited, but have a read of this link:

http://www.lucidity.com/NL11.DreamRecall.html

There are several references to my claim above. I suspect the opinion of Laberges and his associates supercedes our
personal opinions.

One additional thing to consider. Even when you think you have slept 8 hours straight, you probably did not.
Ever have a partner wake up in bed - and then have a brief conversation with them. The next day if you ask
them about it they might not recall the conversation at all. This is typically referred to as a superficial awakening.

The point is, you might sleep a sound 8 hours and recall a dream from mid sleep. Like I said, that does not
preclude the possibility that you woke up and simply forgot all about it.

For what it's worth, I stay the hell away from melatonin on any evening that I want good dream recall or intend
to get up a do a WBTB.

Hey, I think you have to describe what you mean by "dream" DrT.

I can understand that a single dream can have multiple aspects to it, and that after a night of dreaming your memory of what were "discrete dreams" -- those dreams that are separate from each other -- might be a bit foggy.

I myself am pretty sure that I have had "continuous" dreams: I woke up, but upon returning to sleep my mind continued on the dream it was working on. Maybe even in my "wakened" state, the dream was chugging along in the background non-stop.

But, I think that it is safe to say that every time your mind enters REM sleep, you experience stuff in your head during sleep, and that is "a dream", the whole REM stage sleep that lasts 30-90 minutes. You might remember chunks of a dream, and maybe little bitty fragments. Maybe you stitch them together wrong the next morning into one or more memories of dreams.

But, there are few people around who can consciously do multiple intense things simultaneously. And, dreaming is a pretty intense sport, I don't think the human mind could normally have two or more dreams at the same time. The kind of exception that I can think of might be those epileptic people who have a portion of their brain removed -- it isolates the halves of their brain. Maybe they can have two dreams at the same time.

I know that some animals only put half of their brain to sleep at a time, the other half awake and watching for predators. I wonder what their dreams must be like.

Well, I can pick up Melatonin at any Walmart, but as of right now, I'm takign a bit of a high dosage... 10mg. I'm really gonna try tonight and get the dosage down so I can concentrate on other things while I sleep

Originally Posted by ExoByte

I haven't been able to give LDing much effort lately, but its the weekend and because I have little homework over this weekend, I'm dedicating it to dreaming and nothing else. My question is, can I get Melatonin off the shelf at my local drug store, and how much should I get and take? How much of an effect does it have on recall and vividness? What about when paired with B6 and B12?

Thanks

Sometimes a 3 X 0,3MG helpes me to sleep.

If I got the numbers right.

It is not "legal" here..

Melatonin is super cheap.

(I got about 180 3mg tabs for 10$)

Is legal OTC in most countries.



Melatonin is produced naturally in the body. It is what "encourages" the brain to seek rest/sleep. Melatonin is also found naturally in certain foods. Its natural production is affected by darkness and SUNlight, and has different peak production times (Around early morning and dusk, if I am not mistaken)


3MG is about all you will need as a dose. Don't take it right before you sleep, as it will take roughly 30-60minutes to digest and actually take any effect, in which time you will probably already be sleeping.

Anything more than 3MG + What you already have naturally occuring is usually a waste, as the brain/body will make no use of it.

It simply encourages you to rest, and helps to stay asleep. This can be beneficial to LD'ing as posted all above me

I find that I can almost not remember dreams at all without Melatonin. It makes you sleep MUCH deeper, and adds insanity to dreams.

Meaning without it I dream about normal stuff like going to work.

With it I dream detailed and crazy things.

I take 3mg a night.

(The main reason I take it is because it improves overall quality of sleep and makes me feel better the next day).