Timing control

[Zthread]

I've been thinking a lot about timing lately. Just as with comedy and the stock market, timing is an important aspect of LDing. Even if you do everything else correctly, poor timing can prevent you from achieving your intended results. As soon as you take an LD supplement, you've started a clock of sorts. The effects of the supplement will take a certain amount of time to build up to a peak and then will take a different amount of time to diminish to the point where they are negligible. The effects as a function of time will be different depending on what the supplement is, how your body metabolizes it (which will be different for different people), how full your stomach is, how tired you are, your body weight, how much of the supplement you took, etc. In some cases it'd be better for the effects of a given supplement to be delayed in time, relative to the time you take it. For example, galantamine has a tendency to give me insomnia. If there were a way to delay its effects, I might have a better chance of falling asleep before the effects kicked in. For other supplements, it could be desirable to increase the time interval over which the effects occur. For example, the effects of theanine normally don't last very long, due to its relatively short elimination half life (66 minutes versus 420 minutes for galantamine). If there were a way to extend its effects, that could increase the usefulness of theanine as an LD supplement. In the case of supplements taken for the purpose of helping you get to sleep quickly (e.g., melatonin), it could be helpful to find ways to reduce the time it takes for their effects to kick in. I created this thread because I have some ideas I'd like to discuss regarding how one might gain better control of timing when using LD supplements. I'd also like to hear any thoughts other people might have on this subject. Would also be interested in your thoughts on non-supplement-related timing issues relevant to the topic of LDing. For example, how could we figure out what the best amount of time would be to sleep before doing the wake-back-to-bed (WBTB) method.

[zelcrow]

That's very true and good to keep in mind. Speaking of which, I'd like to get a little more acquainted with when my REM cycles come and go.

[Zthread]

That's very true and good to keep in mind. Speaking of which, I'd like to get a little more acquainted with when my REM cycles come and go. Great point! Do you know of any effective ways to do that? Maybe some kind of sleep monitor that records your brain waves or eye motions?

[ZenLD]

Great point! Do you know of any effective ways to do that? Maybe some kind of sleep monitor that records your brain waves or eye motions? Sleep by android is a nice app. Tracks your sleep cycle based on your movements and draws a graph. Also has kind of lucid dreaming mode but I can't vouch for it. Works pretty well. They also have a sonar mode if you have that in your phone. I guess you can try that if have android and fitbit as recommended zelcrow if you have it. Gooluck

[Zthread]

Sleep by android is a nice app. Tracks your sleep cycle based on your movements and draws a graph. Also has kind of lucid dreaming mode but I can't vouch for it. Works pretty well. They also have a sonar mode if you have that in your phone. I guess you can try that if have android and fitbit as recommended zelcrow if you have it. Gooluck Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that.

[Voldmer]

Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that. Sleep as Android is what I use every night to track my sleep quality. It works reasonably well, and it doesn't empty the battery over night.

[ZenLD]

Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that. Yep that is the one. The one with the green android head sleeping. Sorry haha xD

[zelcrow]

So far from what I've read, the best method is to pay attention closely to your own sleep cycle. We wake up around the end of each REM cycle every night. We aren't always aware of it, though. My understanding is to try and develop a habit of remembering these periods each night and document them in relation to when you went to sleep or last fell asleep. It would be awesome to have a machine or device of some kind that could do it for you! I know sleep lab equipment can do so, but I'm not sure what is available and convenient at a consumer level. You bringing that up has made me think, one thing I'm going to try tonight is sleeping with my Fitbit on my wrist - if I can stand it, that is haha (I usually take it off for comfort). It has a tracker which is designed to track your sleep and even tells you how much time you spent in each sleep cycle as well as each time and for how long you awake during the night. Hopefully it's relatively accurate. I'll have to do some research and see.

[Zthread]

So far from what I've read, the best method is to pay attention closely to your own sleep cycle. We wake up around the end of each REM cycle every night. We aren't always aware of it, though. My understanding is to try and develop a habit of remembering these periods each night and document them in relation to when you went to sleep or last fell asleep. Seems like a great idea! It would be awesome to have a machine or device of some kind that could do it for you! I know sleep lab equipment can do so, but I'm not sure what is available and convenient at a consumer level. You bringing that up has made me think, one thing I'm going to try tonight is sleeping with my Fitbit on my wrist - if I can stand it, that is haha (I usually take it off for comfort). It has a tracker which is designed to track your sleep and even tells you how much time you spent in each sleep cycle as well as each time and for how long you awake during the night. Hopefully it's relatively accurate. I'll have to do some research and see. Could be helpful. Fitbits track your motion. Probably you move more during REM sleep.

[zelcrow]

I've never heard of that app. It sounds pretty cool so I'm going to download it. Fortunately, I seem to be waking up after each REM cycle the last couple of nights. However, it has been difficult to get back to sleep!

[Zthread]

Here are some ideas I had for reducing the time delay between the time you go to bed (or go back to bed) and the time the effects of a given supplement kick in: Take the supplement a specified amount of time before you go to bed. For example, if a given sleep-inducing supplement takes effect 40 minutes after you take it, and you'd like it to take effect right when you go to bed, you could make that happen simply by taking it 40 minutes before going to bed. Of course, this isn't a great solution in situations (e.g., when doing a short WBTB) where you don't want to stay awake for as long as would be required for the supplement to take effect. Take the supplement transdermally. Because they bypass the digestive system, transdermal supplements generally get into your bloodstream faster than supplements taken orally. Some transdermal supplements that could have useful effects on sleep and/or dreaming are commercially available. For example, there's a transdermal melatonin spray called "Sprayable Sleep" that I've tried, which seems to work well. Another well-known example is nicotine patches. It's also possible to make transdermal versions of certain supplements yourself. I've had some luck making transdermal galantamine by using alcohol to extract the galantamine from galantamine capsules, letting the alcohol evaporate, and then adding propylene glycol as a skin-permeation enhancer. (BTW, it's important not to use galantamine capsules containing any active ingredients other than galantamine. I tried it with GalantaMind, for example, and it didn't work well.) Take the supplement sublingually. Similarly to transdermal supplements, sublingual supplements generally get into your bloodstream faster than supplements taken orally. Some sublingual supplements that could enhance sleeping and/or dreaming are available commercially. For example, you can find sublingual melatonin for sale online. Also, nicotine gum and lozenges are forms of sublingual nicotine. It may also not be too difficult to make sublingual versions of various supplements yourself. I haven't personally yet gotten around to trying that, though. Take the supplement in vapable form. Anything you vape will get into your bloodstream extremely quickly, because it transfers directly from your lungs into your bloodstream. I've found quite a few commercially-available vapable supplement products that I believe could be useful for enhancing sleep and/or dreaming. Haven't yet tried any of them, though. I'll post something on those products in this thread later today. Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way with any of the companies that make any of the products I've mentioned in this post.

[zelcrow]

I'd like to try it too, but I wonder if having a partner you sleep next to would affect the results very much. I had tried playing a recording saying "you are dreaming" that I recorded myself but it would either wake me up or I wouldn't remember hearing it :/

[Zthread]

I'd like to try it too, but I wonder if having a partner you sleep next to would affect the results very much. That does complicate things. I had tried playing a recording saying "you are dreaming" that I recorded myself but it would either wake me up or I wouldn't remember hearing it :/ I've tried that, too, and also had no luck. But, keeping with the theme of this thread, maybe the reason it didn't work had to do with timing. If the recording just repeats over and over again the entire time you're sleeping, your brain will most likely just filter it out. But if the recording were to turn on only, or at least mainly, at times when you were actually dreaming, it could work. That's what this app claims to do, with a voice and/or a vibration. Of course, the voice and/or vibration could wake up your partner. So that's a problem. But you can also get a sleep mask that works with the app. It has LEDs that flash in your eyes whenever the app thinks you're dreaming. That wouldn't wake up your partner, because the LEDs are only on the side of the mask in contact with your face. Here's a link describing the mask: https://sleepmask.urbandroid.org/ Made by Urbandroid and Happy Electronics. Features Sunrise alarm: from low red to full yellow, no more annoying alarm sounds Light stimulated lullabies for faster fall asleep Lucid dreaming: learn to control and remember your dreams Anti-snoring Comfortable to wear all night Parameters Works with Sleep as Android and Mindroid Supports any OTG equipped Android phone or Tablet, Android 3.1+ Micro USB connector Only costs $69. I'll probably get one. Worth a try for that price. Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way with the company or companies involved in the development and distribution of this app, nor with the company or companies involved in the development and distribution of the hardware products (e.g., the sleep mask) associated with it.

[zelcrow]

Hey, thank you for sharing that, Zthread. I'm interested in the LED masks that work with an app. That's pretty cool. The user would have to have enough awareness to recognize the flashing as a cue for lucidity or it would be rationalized into the dream I imagine. The price doesn't seem so bad either.

[Zthread]

Hey, thank you for sharing that, Zthread. I'm interested in the LED masks that work with an app. That's pretty cool. The user would have to have enough awareness to recognize the flashing as a cue for lucidity or it would be rationalized into the dream I imagine. The price doesn't seem so bad either. I'm going to see what the app can do by itself before getting the mask. If it works without the mask, might not bother getting the mask. Also wanted to point out that the app, with or without the mask, could have synergistic effects with LD supplements (e.g., galantamine, choline, theanine, and nicotine).

[Zthread]

In a previous post on this thread, I discussed methods for reducing the amount of time it takes for LD supplements kick in. But what if you want to delay the effects by a certain amount of time? The answer is just two words: enteric capsules! (If you've never heard of them, look them up online. You'll thank me later!)

[Zthread]

The answer is just two words: enteric capsules! Enteric capsules are delayed-release capsules! You can buy them as empty capsules. They allow you to increase the amount of time after you take them that the LD supplements take effect by half an hour or more, compared with regular capsules. I've found that the ability to control the time delay in that manner has dramatically improved my LDing. The main stumbling block I've always had with LD supplements--especially galantamine and choline--is that they often give me insomnia. And it's gotten way worse as I've gotten older. I'm probably not alone in having this issue. When I take the insomnia-causing LD supplements in delayed-release capsules, the problem goes away completely, because I'm already asleep by the time the supplements take effect! Also, I almost always take galantamine and choline with theanine, because it helps me sleep and stabilizes my LDs. What I've been doing lately is to take some of the theanine in a regular capsule and the rest in a delayed-release capsule. That way, the theanine in the regular capsule kicks in fairly quickly to help me get to sleep. The theanine in the delayed-release capsule, on the other hand, kicks in later to help me stay asleep and stabilize my LDs.

[zelcrow]

That's interesting to know. I still haven't tried any supplements except for melatonin one time. It made me feel odd and I couldn't sleep after taking it. Do you just transfer the contents of one pill to an enteric capsule?

[Zthread]

That's interesting to know. I still haven't tried any supplements except for melatonin one time. It made me feel odd and I couldn't sleep after taking it. That can happen if you take too much. If you try it again, maybe just take half or a fourth of what you took before. Do you just transfer the contents of one pill to an enteric capsule? Yes. Isn't difficult to do. If it's in tablet form, you might have to chop it up first to get it to fit inside the enteric capsule. If you have supplements in regular capsules that are smaller than your enteric capsules, you might just be able to put each regular capsule inside an enteric capsule. Size-0 capsules, for example, will fit inside size-00 capsules.

[zelcrow]

That's pretty interesting that the clicking had an effect on your sleep. I wonder if it was a cause for the nightmare. I would probably do without the vibrating feature as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes for you.

[Zthread]

That's pretty interesting that the clicking had an effect on your sleep. I wonder if it was a cause for the nightmare. I would probably do without the vibrating feature as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes for you. I wonder the same thing about the nightmare. I'm also looking forward to seeing if I can repeat the effect of the clicking on my sleeping and dreaming. Probably will try it again tonight.

[Zthread]

I wonder the same thing about the nightmare. I'm also looking forward to seeing if I can repeat the effect of the clicking on my sleeping and dreaming. Probably will try it again tonight. Great! Let me know what happens! I tried it again night before last, but nothing unusual happened. Might've been because I was extremely tired, though. On a related topic, I have been having some amazing results with oral supplements in the delayed-release capsules, though. Best LDs I've had in years! Long and stable, with great recall. Here's an example that's typical of what I've been taking after first sleeping 4 or 5 hours: Two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 8 mg of galantamine (i.e., the contents of two 4-mg GalantaMind capsules), two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 650 mg of choline bitartrate, a regular (i.e., non-delayed-release) capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, a delayed-release capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, and a delayed-release capsule within a capsule (CWAC) containing 50 mg of theanine. In addition, I bit into a piece of nicotine gum a couple of times, and then kept it between my cheek and gums the whole time I was asleep. (A nicotine patch would probably have worked just as well, if not better.)

[zelcrow]

Good luck! I downloaded the app tonight. Monday-Friday I'll be home alone so I'm thinking I'll see how the app can aid in LDing too. I started taking my B vitamins a few hours before bed so hopefully that'll help too. I'll write back if I also get the clicking.

[zelcrow]

For sure! Last night I actually fell asleep while meditating and I hadn't finished setting up the lucid dreaming option. I tried to set my own voice recording telling myself that I'm dreaming, but an error kept occurring and wouldn't let me load that audio file. Maybe it isn't compatible with .wav files. I'll try converting it to an mp3. That's pretty neat that you're getting some results from the supplements. Are you basing your supplement regimen off of Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements? I just finished Charlie Morley's Lucid Dreaming . In it he mentions that vitamin B6, calcium, and magnesium can help with LDs. I'll be trying those tonight. Hopefully the calcium and magnesium will help with sleep. Where do you get your Galantamind from? I've read that it is good to be picky with where you purchase because some of it is unregulated.

[Zthread]

For sure! Last night I actually fell asleep while meditating and I hadn't finished setting up the lucid dreaming option. I tried to set my own voice recording telling myself that I'm dreaming, but an error kept occurring and wouldn't let me load that audio file. Maybe it isn't compatible with .wav files. I'll try converting it to an mp3. Too bad. Hope the mp3 works better! That's pretty neat that you're getting some results from the supplements. Are you basing your supplement regimen off of Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements? It's mainly based on that, but Yuschak apparently wasn't aware of the availability of empty delayed-release capsules when he wrote it. I've found that the effectiveness of the supplement combinations discussed by Yuschak can be greatly increased by using delayed-release capsules to control the timing of when the different supplements kick in. One major improvement is that it gives you a way to delay the effects of the insomnia-inducing supplements (especially the galantamine) until you're already asleep. So you're a lot less likely to get insomnia. I just finished Charlie Morley's Lucid Dreaming . In it he mentions that vitamin B6, calcium, and magnesium can help with LDs. I'll be trying those tonight. Hopefully the calcium and magnesium will help with sleep. Haven't read that book. What do you think of it in general? Where do you get your Galantamind from? I've read that it is good to be picky with where you purchase because some of it is unregulated. I usually order galantamine from Amazon.com. The GalantaMind brand always works well, but I also have some from Element Nutraceuticals that works just as well.