Thread: Timing control

Good luck! I downloaded the app tonight. Monday-Friday I'll be home alone so I'm thinking I'll see how the app can aid in LDing too. I started taking my B vitamins a few hours before bed so hopefully that'll help too. I'll write back if I also get the clicking.

Originally Posted by Zthread

I wonder the same thing about the nightmare. I'm also looking forward to seeing if I can repeat the effect of the clicking on my sleeping and dreaming. Probably will try it again tonight.

Great! Let me know what happens!

I tried it again night before last, but nothing unusual happened. Might've been because I was extremely tired, though.

On a related topic, I have been having some amazing results with oral supplements in the delayed-release capsules, though. Best LDs I've had in years! Long and stable, with great recall. Here's an example that's typical of what I've been taking after first sleeping 4 or 5 hours:

Two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 8 mg of galantamine (i.e., the contents of two 4-mg GalantaMind capsules), two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 650 mg of choline bitartrate, a regular (i.e., non-delayed-release) capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, a delayed-release capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, and a delayed-release capsule within a capsule (CWAC) containing 50 mg of theanine. In addition, I bit into a piece of nicotine gum a couple of times, and then kept it between my cheek and gums the whole time I was asleep. (A nicotine patch would probably have worked just as well, if not better.)

For sure! Last night I actually fell asleep while meditating and I hadn't finished setting up the lucid dreaming option. I tried to set my own voice recording telling myself that I'm dreaming, but an error kept occurring and wouldn't let me load that audio file. Maybe it isn't compatible with .wav files. I'll try converting it to an mp3.

That's pretty neat that you're getting some results from the supplements. Are you basing your supplement regimen off of Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements?

I just finished Charlie Morley's Lucid Dreaming . In it he mentions that vitamin B6, calcium, and magnesium can help with LDs. I'll be trying those tonight. Hopefully the calcium and magnesium will help with sleep.

Where do you get your Galantamind from? I've read that it is good to be picky with where you purchase because some of it is unregulated.

Originally Posted by zelcrow

For sure! Last night I actually fell asleep while meditating and I hadn't finished setting up the lucid dreaming option. I tried to set my own voice recording telling myself that I'm dreaming, but an error kept occurring and wouldn't let me load that audio file. Maybe it isn't compatible with .wav files. I'll try converting it to an mp3.

Too bad. Hope the mp3 works better!

Originally Posted by zelcrow

That's pretty neat that you're getting some results from the supplements. Are you basing your supplement regimen off of Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements?

It's mainly based on that, but Yuschak apparently wasn't aware of the availability of empty delayed-release capsules when he wrote it. I've found that the effectiveness of the supplement combinations discussed by Yuschak can be greatly increased by using delayed-release capsules to control the timing of when the different supplements kick in. One major improvement is that it gives you a way to delay the effects of the insomnia-inducing supplements (especially the galantamine) until you're already asleep. So you're a lot less likely to get insomnia.

Originally Posted by zelcrow

I just finished Charlie Morley's Lucid Dreaming . In it he mentions that vitamin B6, calcium, and magnesium can help with LDs. I'll be trying those tonight. Hopefully the calcium and magnesium will help with sleep.

Haven't read that book. What do you think of it in general?

Originally Posted by zelcrow

Where do you get your Galantamind from? I've read that it is good to be picky with where you purchase because some of it is unregulated.

I usually order galantamine from Amazon.com. The GalantaMind brand always works well, but I also have some from Element Nutraceuticals that works just as well.

The .mp3 is now working thankfully so I'll set it for tonight!

I can't say that I had ever thought of using the enteric capsules before you wrote about combining them with the supplements here. Good job for of that! It could be really useful for others as well, and it's something I'll be considering if I end up getting into the supplement realm more.

I enjoyed Morley's book. It was fairly short but packed with a lot of good information. It brings up a lot of the usual things like techniques and state testing. He mentioned FAC for falling asleep consciously and his WEIRD technique which is essentially noticing anything odd throughout the day and doing an RC at that time. Things in the book that aren't in most other LD books I've read (I've read seven or eight at this point) are his writing about supplements a bit and then some history of LDing I hadn't found elsewhere.

And thank you for the references. I'm going to look it up and check the prices and all.

How long have you been LDing for? And out of that time how long have you been working with supplements? Also, how have the supplements changed your experience with LDing?

Originally Posted by zelcrow

The .mp3 is now working thankfully so I'll set it for tonight!

Good luck!

I can't say that I had ever thought of using the enteric capsules before you wrote about combining them with the supplements here. Good job for of that! It could be really useful for others as well, and it's something I'll be considering if I end up getting into the supplement realm more.

Great! Yes, I'm excited about it! Trying to get more people interested in it.

I enjoyed Morley's book. It was fairly short but packed with a lot of good information. It brings up a lot of the usual things like techniques and state testing. He mentioned FAC for falling asleep consciously and his WEIRD technique which is essentially noticing anything odd throughout the day and doing an RC at that time. Things in the book that aren't in most other LD books I've read (I've read seven or eight at this point) are his writing about supplements a bit and then some history of LDing I hadn't found elsewhere.

Just looked at the description of the book on Amazon. Does look good. What's the basic idea of the FAC method?

And thank you for the references. I'm going to look it up and check the prices and all.

Sounds good!

How long have you been LDing for?

Not sure, but probably at least 25 years.

And out of that time how long have you been working with supplements?

Again, not sure, but maybe 10-15 years.

Also, how have the supplements changed your experience with LDing?

When they work properly, they're amazing! They can definitely allow you to have a lot more LDs. More importantly, they can make your LDs much longer, more stable, and more vivid, as well as improve your ability to think logically during LDs.

But from the start, I've always had trouble with the supplements giving me insomnia. And as the years went by, that problem got worse. So, except for the past half year or so, I haven't used them much at all for the past 5-10 years. Because insomnia isn't fun or healthy at all.

Then late last year I decided to see if I could come up with new strategies that would allow me to use LD supplements effectively without getting insomnia. At some point I was talking to someone on another LD forum (Deep Dreaming) about the issue. He mentioned the possibility of using extended-release LD supplements. Unfortunately, they didn't exist, as far as I could tell.

However, the guy's comment made me think that there might be such a thing as empty delayed-release capsules that could be filled with whatever supplements you wanted to fill them with. After some quick online searches, I discovered that such capsules do, in fact, exist, and that they're available from many different sources (e.g., Amazon.com). As I mentioned previously, they're called enteric capsules. I've been experimenting with them ever since. At this point I'm pretty much convinced I've solved my problem with LD-supplement-induced insomnia. The LDs I've been inducing using supplements in delayed-release capsules are the best I've had in many years, possibly ever!

So how long have you been into LDing? Seems like you just got into it fairly recently. What got you interested in it?

Morely describes the FAC technique as being like WILD but with "a few of his own methods" and meditative awareness. He then has three different methods to get to the lucid dream state. One is to go through hypnagogic drop-in. The next he writes is for if you have good body awareness perhaps through dance, bodywork, or yoga. This one reminds me of SSILD except you never lose consciousness. And lastly, for FAC he writes of a counting technique where once you enter the hypnagogic state you start anchoring your awareness by counting One: I'm lucid? Two: I'm lucid? etc. I tried to be as short as possible in writing that. Hopefully I gave enough information.

And that's quite a while!

That's great that you've found a way to increase the efficacy of the supplements. Do you use them each time you attempt to LD, or do you limit how often you use supplements? I remember in Yuschak's book he talks about the half-life of supplements and suggests limitations as far as frequency.

I started practicing about six months ago with a few months of hiatus due to work circumstances. I'm hoping to stay into it more consistently this time. I've had a passive interest for years ever since I had a couple of LDs as a young teenager. I wish I had started pursuing it then. The second one I had was a result of autosuggestion, I think.

How did you get into and get you start with LDing?

Originally Posted by zelcrow

Morely describes the FAC technique as being like WILD but with "a few of his own methods" and meditative awareness. He then has three different methods to get to the lucid dream state. One is to go through hypnagogic drop-in. The next he writes is for if you have good body awareness perhaps through dance, bodywork, or yoga. This one reminds me of SSILD except you never lose consciousness. And lastly, for FAC he writes of a counting technique where once you enter the hypnagogic state you start anchoring your awareness by counting One: I'm lucid? Two: I'm lucid? etc. I tried to be as short as possible in writing that. Hopefully I gave enough information.

It sounds like a good book. I'm interested in WILDing. Never have been able to do it, though. I also really like hypnagogia.

Originally Posted by zelcrow

And that's quite a while!

Yes, I suppose it is!

Originally Posted by zelcrow

That's great that you've found a way to increase the efficacy of the supplements. Do you use them each time you attempt to LD, or do you limit how often you use supplements? I remember in Yuschak's book he talks about the half-life of supplements and suggests limitations as far as frequency.

It's pretty much the only method of having LDs that I'm doing these days. I also sometimes have spontaneous LDs, but they're usually very brief, unfortunately. I'm limiting the LD supplements to no more than once a week to try to minimize desensitization. I really should try some other techniques at some point. Especially techniques for WILDs.

Originally Posted by zelcrow

I started practicing about six months ago with a few months of hiatus due to work circumstances. I'm hoping to stay into it more consistently this time. I've had a passive interest for years ever since I had a couple of LDs as a young teenager. I wish I had started pursuing it then. The second one I had was a result of autosuggestion, I think.

It's an exciting and worthwhile thing to do. It's really an exploration of your conscious and subconscious mind.

Originally Posted by zelcrow

How did you get into and get you start with LDing?

Sometime around the mid to late 90's something made me think about a nightmare I had when I was a little kid. I was running away from a large bee that was trying to sting me. Suddenly I realized I was dreaming. I stopped running and told the bee to go ahead and sting me. Instead of doing that, it just flew away. Thinking about this dream as an adult (i.e., in the 90's), it occurred to me that it's pretty amazing to have a dream in which you know you're dreaming. I hadn't even heard of the term "lucid dream," but I soon came across it when I started researching the concept. I found a few articles about LD-induction masks and a few other induction techniques. I never got a mask, but tried some of the techniques. Didn't have much, if any luck, but I really didn't try very hard. I got more serious about it in the early 2000's. Found some LD forums that had lots of good information. I mainly liked Mortal Mist back then. (It still exists, but is kind of like a ghost town. Almost no one uses it anymore. It also gets lots of spam messages that the people running it don't have the time or interest to delete. Kind of sad.) Anyway, I got lots of good advice from these forums and started having more LDs. I eventually found that LD supplements seemed to be the best method for me. However, the more I used them, the more issues I started to have with insomnia. So I gradually stopped using them. Still had occasional LDs, but a lot fewer of them. But now this new delayed-release thing seems to have solved that problem!

Hi Zthread. Been a long time since I've posted on DV, but your post caught my interest. Being 66, I believe that I am in your age bracket. I have not actively tried to LD in close to a year, but my interest is again growing. Of my 15 or so LD's in the past, all but 2 were accomplished using galantamine and choline. I find it interesting that you have primarily DILDs while using that combination. All of mine were WILDs while using G and C. My two non suppliment LD's were both DILDs and took a long time and a lot of work to accomplish. I take it that the capsules you use release the total dosage at one time, just delayed so it can happen while you're asleep? I may try the delayed capsule route and see if it works to help me with DILDs. Because I have trouble getting back to sleep after more than a few minutes of WBTB, this might be an easier way for me to get back to LDing. By the way, my WILDing took way to long (about 45-60 min) to accomplish an LD and was very disruptive to my sleep which I value highly.

Originally Posted by pdunc

Hi Zthread. Been a long time since I've posted on DV, but your post caught my interest. Being 66, I believe that I am in your age bracket.

Yes, I'll be 64 next month.

I have not actively tried to LD in close to a year, but my interest is again growing. Of my 15 or so LD's in the past, all but 2 were accomplished using galantamine and choline. I find it interesting that you have primarily DILDs while using that combination. All of mine were WILDs while using G and C.

That is interesting! Could be that my brain is wired differently than yours. Or, maybe it's that you use the LD supplements in a different manner than I do. Maybe you take them at different points in the sleep cycle, use different dose levels, etc.

My two non suppliment LD's were both DILDs and took a long time and a lot of work to accomplish.

Briefly, what basic method(s) did you use?

I take it that the capsules you use release the total dosage at one time, just delayed so it can happen while you're asleep?

Yes, that's exactly what those capsules do. What I've been doing thus far is to take my usual dose of galantamine and choline bitartrate in delayed-release capsules, because those are the supplements that make it hard for me to get to sleep. (Galantamine does, anyway. Not completely sure about choline, because I've never taken it by itself.) I also use theanine. For that I usually put some (e.g., 100 mg) in a regular capsule and some (e.g., 50 mg) in a delayed-release capsule. The theanine in the regular capsule helps me relax, so I can get to sleep, while the delayed-release capsule extends the total duration of the effects of the theanine, which makes my LDs more stable. I also usually use a piece of nicotine gum, which I bite a couple of times and then leave in my mouth, to provide a slow trickle of nicotine. A small piece of a nicotine patch on my arm probably would work just as well or better.

I may try the delayed capsule route and see if it works to help me with DILDs. Because I have trouble getting back to sleep after more than a few minutes of WBTB, this might be an easier way for me to get back to LDing.

Great! Would be really interested in hearing how it works for you, if you try it. Sounds like you're a perfect candidate for it, since you have trouble getting back to sleep after just a few minutes of WBTB.

I should mention that it might not work very well the first few times, so don't get discouraged if it doesn't. I often get insomnia the first few times I try any new technique, because I'm excited about trying the new technique and that makes it hard to get to sleep.

You may also have to play around with the dose levels a bit until you find something that works for you. Also, I don't recommend trying it more often than maybe once every 4 days, to prevent desensitization. To be extra safe, I don't do it any more often than once a week.

By the way, my WILDing took way to long (about 45-60 min) to accomplish an LD and was very disruptive to my sleep which I value highly.

So you're saying you lost about 45-60 min of sleep each night that you did your WILDing? That's not pleasant. I also highly value my sleep!

When the delayed-release LD supplements work properly, they at least shouldn't give you insomnia. However, I've found that the quality of my sleep when I take these supplements seems to not be as good as when I don't take them. That makes sense, because LD supplements wake up your brain more than it normally is when you're asleep. So I usually feel a bit tired the next day. That's another reason not to do this too often. Sleep deprivation isn't healthy.

Also, pdunc, here's a specific example of what I take sometimes at WBTB:

Two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 8 mg of galantamine (i.e., the contents of two 4-mg GalantaMind capsules), two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 650 mg of choline bitartrate, a regular (i.e., non-delayed-release) capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, a delayed-release capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, and a delayed-release capsule within a capsule (CWAC) containing 50 mg of theanine. In addition, I bite into a piece of nicotine gum a couple of times, and then keep it between my cheek and gums the whole time I'm asleep.

This seems to work well for me, but you might need to adjust it a bit to get it to work for you. (I posted this example previously in this thread, but I think it's worth repeating.) I usually sleep for 4 to 5 hours before taking the above supplements. After taking them, I go right back to bed. For me, anyway, there's no need to stay awake for awhile at WBTB to get it to work better.

The CWAC is just a size-0 delayed-release capsule inside of a size-00 delayed-release capsule. Based on my experience, a single delayed-release capsule provides about 30 minutes of delay before the effects of a given supplement kick in, relative to when they would kick in using a regular capsule. A CWAC provides about twice as much delay as a single delayed-release capsule (i.e., 60 minutes of delay).

I should also mention that I've only been experimenting with delayed-release capsules for a few months now. I'm sure there's still a lot to learn about how to best use them. If you get into this and find something different from what I'm doing that works well for you, I hope you'll let me know!