Thread: Supplements or Natural?

Supplements are just crutches. You can achieve the same effects they give with hard work and determination, and the results will truly be yours, rather than some chemical's. On top of that, remember that what works for someone else might not work for you. The brain isn't like the other organs, and it's very likely that you'll have to try a wide range of supplements until you find something that works for you.

Your work, your results.

I think it's good to learn to do it naturally, but supplements are ok occasionally. I use "Glantamind" generally with a month or two between uses.
With supplements there's the chance of building a tolerance so it won't work anymore.

I do think it's best to go the natural route. No chance of chemical or psychological dependencies that "I need it to get lucid." If you have a solid LD practice, something like galantamine can be taken once in a while as an experiment, though. But it's best to really establish your practice first, I think.

We are living in modern era so are there people who manage to create a machine or tool that can make 100 percent chance of getting LD yet? I guess we really need to practice very hard in order to achieve LD. Experiencing LD is one of the most awesome opportunity someone would get.

I agree that dependence on a supplement isn't good for lucid dreaming (or life in general). However, I occasionally use supplements to "jump-start" my recall/lucidity, especially during dry spells or the like. You can use them every once in a while if you're out of the groove, but it's very important to actually have natural ability as well.

Originally Posted by proctree

Supplements are just crutches. You can achieve the same effects they give with hard work and determination, and the results will truly be yours, rather than some chemical's. On top of that, remember that what works for someone else might not work for you. The brain isn't like the other organs, and it's very likely that you'll have to try a wide range of supplements until you find something that works for you.

Your work, your results.

This! Read my mind, could not agree more. Real thing all the way.

Why not both? It works synergic.

Well I had a few short lucids, and then tried the supplement route and had some success with Galantamine, but I've decided to try and go "au naturel" for the last 10 weeks.
The problem is that although my dream recall is quite good, I've only had a couple of very brief "almost" lucids, and one very short one since ditching the G.
I had hoped that the length of my lucids would increase using Galantamine, but the reverse seemed to happen.
I think what others have said here is true, that the basic techniques need to be there even for supplements to work successfully.

I'm tempted to go back and try the G again.

I tried using Calea Zacatachichi. (I think that's what it's called.) I was hoping that it would keep me lucid longer in my dreams, but instead it just gave me random dreams. I ended up giving the rest away after a while of taking it. Not for me. I may try something new later on though.

I use melatonin usually. Not because i primarily want it for dreaming purposes but to try to get to sleep early. The dreaming part is partially in mind but its just a added bonus on the side when i use it. It works well if i sleep in a while undisturbed, so the longer i sleep with it the better. When i choose not to use it because i know ill be tired enough to sleep without it i still have good dreams and dont think i need it to dream well. If i use it to sleep ill still utilize but no drpendencies here.

Side note, i had a very vivid dream the other night a night i drank. Probably about 7 drinks give or take by American standards for a drink, so i didnt really feel much but whoa i had such a vivid dream that night.

Originally Posted by Nfri

Why not both? It works synergic.

I agree....its always best to be able to do ANYTHING naturally, but I won't knock a supplement if it helped me in some way. I dont think anyone should develop a dependency on supplements. But of course I think we all feel that way.
For me to say something that hasnt been said in this thread, let me say this...


I have had just about every supplement for lucid dreaming aids that you can think of.....i've gone lucid with and without supplements.....
my personal opinion is that, the only thing that really TRULY sparks lucidity is WBTB.

Every supplement, Galantamine, Choline, Yohimbe, L-Dopa, B vitamins, etc, they all get introduced during a WBTB......
Induction methods or Incubation techniques rely heavily on WBTB.......
MILDS, WILDS, FILDS, etc.......WBTB....

My point is that, with the proper mindset, WBTB works by ITSELF.

I've had nights where i supressed my REM by taking 200 mg of 5-HTP.....then waking up after 4 hours and taking galantamine/choline bitartrate.....and practiced the MILD technique.....only to fall asleep and wake up with ZERO RECALL. And mind you, this is after spending much time with a mindful, sporadic awareness mindset, meditation 3 times a day, breathing meditation, visualization meditation, and single point dream yoga meditation, reality checks, journaling...u-get-the-picture......

Then ive had nights where i didnt take a goddamn thing and just went to sleep.....woke up in the middle of the night to take a leak...got back in bed....and had the most EPIC, VIVID LUCIDs a human being can imagine.......i mean getting a lap dance from Michelle Obama while having a power lunch with Bill Gates for-crying-out-loud.........

Now, dont get me wrong, im not knocking any technique, or method. If you find something that works for you, please, by all means, use it but try to not get dependent on it.....the same goes for any supplement.....
cus personally.......lucid dreaming is one of those things where u can do everything "right" and get nothing.....then not even try really and get amazing results....
its definitely a mind thing.....
we all dream every night.....its just a matter of "catching" it......

Originally Posted by FOATL

my personal opinion is that, the only thing that really TRULY sparks lucidity is WBTB.

Every supplement, Galantamine, Choline, Yohimbe, L-Dopa, B vitamins, etc, they all get introduced during a WBTB......
Induction methods or Incubation techniques rely heavily on WBTB.......
MILDS, WILDS, FILDS, etc.......WBTB....

My point is that, with the proper mindset, WBTB works by ITSELF.

It's interesting that you write this. I reached exactly the same conclusion last year. After a few dozen attempts with galantamine and choline with rarely getting back to sleep within 3 (or even 5) hours, (but yet sometimes having really amazing lucids, even 7 hours after taking the supps, supposedly beyond their effective time period), I started to wonder: was it the supplements, or was it all the hours spent awake intensely thinking about lucid dreaming? I created a thread, "supplements: does it all come down to WBTB in the end?" where not everyone agreed with me .

I think there is no doubt that galantamine + choline has an effect: I can feel it, I have HI like fireworks going off before my eyelids on that combination. But I think just as important is the combination of WBTB + the strong expectation of "just knowing" that you'll be lucid.

Go natural. Check my sig for info on a lot of substitutes.

I use both
Does anybody really rely on just supplements? It can be expensive and you would become tolerant pretty fast.

I go natural. I feel like if you take too much of something, your body will stop making as much of it. So when people take supplements, they may have an ld, but the next day or the day after, you would have a deficiency of it in your system. For instance:

Your body needs melatonin to go to sleep. You take melatonin during a wbtb to get to sleep quicker and hope for an ld.

Two days later, all the new melatonin is out of your system, but your body is producing less of it than before because it sensed that you had enough melatonin. Now you have insomnia because there isn't enough melatonin in your system.

Similar to what happens when you take steroids or other drugs. Make sense? You will notice that people that use them are very up and down, not consistently. Might be good for others, but I plan on LDing forever and I want to LD all night every night. Supplements are not on my path.

Sensei please tell me what you do to get ld's!!!

LD sups (essentially 5htp, Galantamine+choline, and AlphaGPC, and even more important : the yuschak's book) associated with a WILD/DEILD methodology brought me back to the LD game.
I am far from being a noob, I had my first LD 30 ago, but these two last years, I was less and less able to DILD so I decided to go to the 100% WILD.
The fact of reading the yuschak's book and starting LD supps at the same time I started to seriously go the the WILD/DEILD game strongly helped me to have many LD again.

I consider certain supplements as a very good WILD aid, but it doesn't only help to LD, it also enhances most of the LD, in therm of length and stability.

Natural vs supps?

I think we play with our brain chemistry when we practice WBTB, and even with some classical LD techniques.
I also think our brain chemistry changes when we are in a LD, sometimes the LD makes our brain chemistry change, sometimes some chemical changes in our brain make us getting lucid.

Indeed, I don't consider LD as a 100% natural phenomenon as we have to force it, and it results in some chemical modifications in our dreaming brain. (and for so called natural Lucid Dreamers, their brain is different)
So, if you use caffeine to wake you up in the morning, vitamins to help you for your daily schedule, nicotine to stay calm (and because you need it), alcohol to be cool when you go out to see friends, eat hamburgers and french fries because of the good smell, I don't see why not cleverly use supps for enhancing your LDs, if you do it with the knowledge it deserves.

Using supplements, AND reading books about how it works and how to use it safely and smartly can result in a better knowledge about the dreaming brain.

That's was my two cents about LD supps.

Originally Posted by Kaan

So, if you use caffeine to wake you up in the morning, vitamins to help you for your daily schedule, nicotine to stay calm (and because you need it), alcohol to be cool when you go out to see friends, eat hamburgers and french fries because of the good smell, I don't see why not cleverly use supps for enhancing your LDs, if you do it with the knowledge it deserves.

Only one of those things do i do (eat something because it smells good). All the others I don't use because they are not needed for life. Nicotine especially. But if you want to compare lding supplements to a drug that slowly kills you because of a temporary fix, go for it. I don't think they are that bad

Best dreams I've ever had have been from nicotine patches, shame I only ever have them when I'm quitting smoking.

Originally Posted by Sensei

Only one of those things do i do (eat something because it smells good). All the others I don't use because they are not needed for life. Nicotine especially. But if you want to compare lding supplements to a drug that slowly kills you because of a temporary fix, go for it. I don't think they are that bad

alcohol makes life better!

Originally Posted by Barry

alcohol makes life better!

Haha. I didn't mention the alcohol. It actually is good to have a little of it every once in a while. Probably not the best idea if you are only doing it to be cool. What are ya gonna do to he cool next? just joking (a little)

One thing I have found is that both Alcohol and Ca****is greatly reduces my ability to dream, I've found that I have much clearer dreams and better DR when I sleep sobur.

Originally Posted by Barry

Is it better to try and LD naturally, or take supplements?

My parents wouldn't approve of me taking pills, but galantamine sounds so effective

An alternative to supplements is Isochronic tones and Binaural beats ( google it ) They work for most people and has doubled my frequency form 2-3 nights per week to 5-6. The ones from Brainwave Power Music ive found to be the best. Iso-tones.com has some free downloads.

^^ When do you listen to them and for how long?