Exciting new EILD device: Oneirics!

**DoubleHelix** · 09-29-2014 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sageous

Promising yes, but not really telling. I wouldn't mind seeing the stats on the subjects' second and third LD's. A powerful placebo effect can accompany tests of devices like this. How the machine works after the effect wears off would be a good piece of information to share, especially if the LD rates remain high.

There is no doubt that more and further information would be beneficial, but I look at it this way: The device is a training tool. I use all manner of training tools for activities that are difficult to master. Ever try hovering a radio controlled helicopter "nose in" where left is right, right is left and front and back are also reversed? For training (to avoid thousands of dollars worth of repairs and rebuilding delays, R/C helicopter and airplane pilots such as myself use computer simulator programs. They work WONDERS. I put this Oneierics device in the same category. It'll help teach me the requisite skills of daytime awareness, and clue me during REM...giving me the best chance to attain lucidity - arguably supplementing my own motivation and desire to succeed - just like the flying simulators. You acquire the requisite skills in less time. For me (being 61 years old with a lot of catching up to do) this device would be a godsend.

**FryingMan** · 10-01-2014 10:58 AM

^^ Well said DH. The backing rate is looking depressingly slow for Oneirics, I really hope they make it. Otherwise, like I said, I guess it's time to dust off the soldering iron and microcontroller programming manuals and make one of these things for myself, dangit. And I bet I can finish it before ND2 comes out!!!! (Such a project would take me years.... haha...joke on ND2 lateness).

Another device came out recently on kickstarter : Guidy. Doesn't look nearly as well-thought out developed as Oneirics, lucid dreaming was sort of a tack-on rather than a ground-up purpose. But it has rem detection and lights (manual settings) for notification. I think Oneiric's AI notification (always varying notification signal) is really important to avoid habituation.

I find I can practically sleep all night long with REMee on highest brightness signaling for 15 seconds every 5 minutes these days, which is not a good sign. It will wake me up if I'm in very light sleep or already awake or very close to being awake, but that's all. I should probably stop using the notification so that any habituation wears off in time for a real REM detecting mask.

**Bharmo** · 10-01-2014 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Another device came out recently on kickstarter : Guidy. Doesn't look nearly as well-thought out developed as Oneirics, lucid dreaming was sort of a tack-on rather than a ground-up purpose. But it has rem detection and lights (manual settings) for notification. I think Oneiric's AI notification (always varying notification signal) is really important to avoid habituation.

Thanks for letting us know FM!
Obviously Oneirics is much more advanced, having the AI and trainer. But on the other hand Guidy might be what we all expected Remee to be, an affordable REM detecting LDing mask.

**FryingMan** · 10-01-2014 01:49 PM

Yes good point. I wouldn't mind a REM-detecting remee!

**DoubleHelix** · 10-02-2014 10:14 PM

Yeah, I'm a bit upset at the sluggish funding rate. IMHO not only do I WANT one of these, I really think I may NEED the kind of assistance and training this device would provide. My life is so packed with obligations and so fast-paced and stress-filled, it is hard to find time and sometimes even REMEMBER to do my daytime awareness, reality checks, and other exercises that would enhance my chance to have more lucid dreams. By the time I get home after battling traffic, I'm often upset with myself that I've done none of the prerequisites to have a lucid dream....AGAIN.

If I plunked down my hard-earned cash, you KNOW I'd use the Oneierics device! Frankly, I've managed to convince myself it would be helpful. I sure hope the community comes together and helps turn this device into a reality.

DH

**FryingMan** · 10-08-2014 06:59 AM

Well it's not going great on KS but the creator mentions that he will get alternative funding and make a small production run and have some of the backers review the device in order to prepare for another try later on, check out the latest comments for the details.

**Shaman1982** · 10-10-2014 04:34 PM

I've went through this threat and still don't know what device you guys talk about, what is KS?

**FryingMan** · 10-10-2014 05:05 PM

KS is the crowd-funding site kickstarter. Google for "kickstarter oneirics" and the #1 link should be the right one.

**Shaman1982** · 10-10-2014 05:20 PM

Oh OK thanks, the campaign doesn't look like it's going to succeed. Did you hear about luciding? That is suppose to be another LD aid. It will be head wristband with REM detection and 40Hz stimulation.

**FryingMan** · 10-10-2014 05:39 PM

Yeah I've seen luciding before, but anything that is not standalone (you must subscribe to their service apparently for the device to work?) is a no-go for me. Additionally, I don't think I'm going to be an early adopter of the first round of brain-zapping devices, let alone a brain-zapping device controlled by a 3rd party over the internet.

They need to publish a whole lot more information about the particulars of their devices. How do they detect REM, for instance? Also, I think you meant "headband".

"Give the device away [at cost, allegedly] and charge for service" is a great marketing approach to try, but I wonder if it will work in this market.

As always, we want to see studies of long-term effectiveness. The reality of the new devices though is that we don't have this information yet.

Here's the contemporary market so far:

ND2: beta test in Spring, 2014 @ the LaBerge Hawaii retreat, silence from the lucidity institute ever since

Aurora: supposed to ship this month, October 2014, they're slipping and have not said by how much

Oneirics: probably not going to make the kickstarter campaign, but at least will do a beta test of a small production run in the next couple of months hopefully

Remee: still waiting for my first lucid from it after 5 months. My sleep schedule is too irregular for a non-rem-detecting device to have any hope of working I think. I've noticed the signals about 3-ish times in dreams, every time waking me up instantly. The tweaking of iniitial delay and notification just seems to take forever.

**Verre** · 10-10-2014 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Yeah I've seen luciding before, but anything that is not standalone (you must subscribe to their service apparently for the device to work?) is a no-go for me.

Ugh, a subscription? I was wondering how long it would take for the vultures to start circling around our hobby, now that it's getting better known. But trying to launch a subscription service at this point seems doomed to failure. News about the 40-Hz brain zapping technique only came out earlier this year... this is still edgetech, not a method streamlined and reliable enough to turn into a subscription-based service.

That said, I'm excited about this tech and can't wait to zap my own brain! Electricity! Woo! But I'm definitely going to hold out for a stand-alone device.

**Sageous** · 10-10-2014 08:32 PM

^^ The upside of the vulture culture though, is that, in the end, LD'ing is the one hobby that we can pursue for free -- all this stuff is only gravy, and not required equipment...

**Bharmo** · 10-11-2014 03:53 AM

Wow, never heard of Luciding before, but I've check a slideshare and... What can I say... Maybe is best to quote their claims:

We give the device for as low as 2 months subscription. $75
This includes:
- 150 dreams
- unlimited selectable dreams
- thematic dreams
- group dreams

Etc etc
How can they advertise this at all?

**FryingMan** · 10-11-2014 10:59 AM

For $75 I'm almost tempted to try it except I don't want to subject myself to electroshock therapy. Just had two awesome LDs this morning au natural though, so maybe I really don't need this.

**Sageous** · 10-11-2014 03:38 PM

I would probably save the $75 -- Dreambh makes a good point; these particular guys seem to have just gone to a LD'ing forum, picked every common goal, and then promised they would happen... that seems a bit specious to me, I think. Also, as Verre mentioned, it would take years to develop a program to actually influence the content of dreams from the outside; to say that you can do it just months after someone noticed the potential to do it is, well, downright suspicious.

That said, you probably needn't worry about electro-shock treatment, FryingMan, as it is not the torturous process that it once was. It turns out that electro-shock therapy was always a good idea -- and it works -- but the doctors who used it back in the bad old days of the therapy didn't know how much shock to administer; so they administered in terms of amps rather than milliamps. Still, where specifically to send those milliamps is still very much in the air in general, so I highly doubt that anyone has advanced this technique enough to consistently trigger, much less organize and program, lucid dreams.

**FryingMan** · 10-11-2014 04:09 PM

Oh, I absolutely do not believe in the dream content control. Only hoping (again) for REM detection and lucidity aid.

But you are right. This is one beast I think that does not deserve to be fed. Better to assist real honest-to-goodness inventors like (I'm hoping) Oneirics is.

**Verre** · 10-12-2014 09:32 AM

Exactly. The fact that the Luciding guys have the temerity to promise "group dreams" when shared dreaming is a phenomenon about which we do not yet understand the extent to which it exists, IF it exists, suggests that their business practices are irresponsible if not out-and-out fraudulent. Grrrr!

**digitalvygr** · 01-21-2015 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by Tlaloc

Apologies if this reply is a bit warped - just returned from my kids school disco! (If you're a parent you'll know these things are often loaded with subsidised drink from the adults!).

Thought I'd jam another 2cents in the slot as its an interesting thread. Regarding incorporation of stimuli into dreams - again theres been a reasonable amount of research into this - both inside and outside of lucid dreaming, infact if you go outside of lucid dreaming research theres a lot more information. Anyway Hearne (who invented the 'original' dream machine) did quite a lot of research on this, and some of its really interesting. He was trying to get people lucid through incorporation of stimuli. Anyway he tried various stimuli - small samples (his Liverpool uni Phd) so maybe not that scientific but still of value - he tried smells, and light and tape recordings and tactile stimulation. He found that a water spray to the body gave the greatest INCORPORATION into the dream scene when applied in REM sleep - but resulted in zero lucidity. The reason being the spray got indirectly incorporated - people had dreams of people spitting on them, raining on them, urine - all sorts of odd incorporations of water but never direct enough to make the dreamer lucid. He settled on electro-tactile stimulation of the wrist in a series of pulses as a better stimulus - less total incorporation but when it was incorporated it was much more likely that the dreamer recognized the stimuli and became lucid.

that seems to me to be the key thing - just getting the stimuli incorporated isn't enough. Its as much, or more, about how directly the cue is incorporated into the dream.

As to my own experience with the vibrating alarm, and also harkening back to Herne and La Berges experiences with vibration - 2 days training is more than enough in daytime practice. After that - you're set, it really is that straight forward. From using the vibration on my ankle the only confusions I really had was once or twice I felt the vibration in a dream and mistoke it for a vibrating cell, or I dreamt I was programming the clock and it was vibrating (a sort of FA). But 80% of the time it was (and is) directly incorporated. Well - to qualify - sometimes the brain changes the vibration length or adds sound - so occasionally you can become lucid just by noticing a difference in the type of vibration. La Berge had good success with vibration induced lucid dreamer but didn't go further due to 'technical issues' at the time. Herne developed his machine but it never went commercial.

I think this group look like they've on to a good thing. So perhaps the time for a vibrating cue really has come. Regarding the habituation issue..... hopefully it might not be an issue with a REM detecting based device. I am happy to discuss this if you are interested dreambh - you could pm me. In short in my experience (a sample of one I'm afraid!) you need to perform some sort of activity whenever you encounter the signal - awake or asleep - as Sageous alluded to - using an EILD is not a passive experience, become passive and you will lose the ability to become lucid once the novelty of the stimulus wears off.

I will likely be PMing you Tlaloc. The other night I tried an actigraphy based REM detecting app that allowed vibration of my iPhone which I had strapped to my wrist, and I had and AWESOME OBE/WILD experience. So I became a believer in the whole vibration as a trigger thing and went out and bought a Fitbit Charge. Problem there is it vibrates a bit too long so wakes me too much.

Would definitely be interested in your thoughts and what you used for vibration around your ankle, etc.

As for the Oneirics project that failed, they failed because they blew the marketing angle of this thing. It appeals only to us hardcore geeks who already KNOW how awesome Lucid Dreaming is. I have analyzed a bunch of these failed campaigns, and have helped a buddy script his own KS campaign that got funded, the failure is not the idea, it is getting people jazzed about it.

**FryingMan** · 01-21-2015 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by digitalvygr

I will likely be PMing you Tlaloc. The other night I tried an actigraphy based REM detecting app that allowed vibration of my iPhone which I had strapped to my wrist, and I had and AWESOME OBE/WILD experience. So I became a believer in the whole vibration as a trigger thing and went out and bought a Fitbit Charge. Problem there is it vibrates a bit too long so wakes me too much.

Would definitely be interested in your thoughts and what you used for vibration around your ankle, etc.

As for the Oneirics project that failed, they failed because they blew the marketing angle of this thing. It appeals only to us hardcore geeks who already KNOW how awesome Lucid Dreaming is. I have analyzed a bunch of these failed campaigns, and have helped a buddy script his own KS campaign that got funded, the failure is not the idea, it is getting people jazzed about it.

Oneirics went out on KS without having already built a large series of endorsements / awards from external organizations. The timing was also unfortunate in that several failed/fraudulent LD projects came just before it so people are very leery of any LD projects. And yes it is comparatively a very niche market to begin with. So yeah I basically agree that Oneirics was a marketing failure. But it's not dead, keep your eyes peeled for it returning in the future after a beta run with users.

**Ctharlhie** · 01-21-2015 04:34 PM

Now that Onierics seems to be on hold for the moment, do any of you guys know anything about NeuroOn? Seems it has built in EKG/EEG, looks interesting.

**FryingMan** · 01-21-2015 06:10 PM

Just what I've read on the KS. Last time I checked LDing didn't seem to really be seriously on their radar. If they can detect REM reliably then you'd think they could have a LD function. I think our current best bet is Aurora. Hopefully devices like NeuroOn will have public SDKs where REM detection could be used to transform it into a LD device.

**Ctharlhie** · 01-21-2015 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Just what I've read on the KS. Last time I checked LDing didn't seem to really be seriously on their radar. If they can detect REM reliably then you'd think they could have a LD function. I think our current best bet is Aurora. Hopefully devices like NeuroOn will have public SDKs where REM detection could be used to transform it into a LD device.

Any idea whether NeuroOn will be opening up to third party app developers? perhaps other devs would more tap into the lding potential?

**FryingMan** · 01-21-2015 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Any idea whether NeuroOn will be opening up to third party app developers? perhaps other devs would more tap into the lding potential?

That's what I meant with SDK (= software development kit, for 3rd party developers). So, I hope! Oneirics was definitely going to have an SDK, another reason why it rules (ruled?) the current crop of devices, at least comparing specs.

**DoubleHelix** · 01-24-2015 01:20 AM

Sure wish we were getting more frequent updates / status reports from the Oneirics folks...

I'm definitely committed to plunking down my $$$ for this device.

**TheUncanny** · 01-24-2015 04:02 AM

I pre-ordered the Aurora (has EEG-grade REM detection), but it's going to be another few months until I'll see anything. In the meantime, I was considering getting a Zband or other wearable vibrating alarm to assist with my WBTB/Rhythmic Napping approach to LDing. Not really finding one that had everything I wanted (and not wanting to spend a lot of money) I ended up downloading the "Alarm Clock Xtreme" app instead. Got two LDs the first night I used it, one WILD from the initial alarm and followed that up with a DEILD.

The app is not perfect however -- it's missing a lot of things that would've been helpful for an LDer like me. As such, I'll be working with a coworker of mine (who also is a programmer) to develop my own app specifically for my method of LDing. If it works well enough, we might even go public with it.