Substances that facilitate lucid dreaming – A Case Study Written By: Thomas Yuschak

[dreamcatcher81]

This was a gd read about lucid dream supplements. Enjoy. Namaste. http://dreamslucid.files.wordpress.c...case_study.pdf

[Alyzarin]

Propanolol, huh? How the heck did he come up with that...? Damn, and I have access to atenolol too, but it doesn't pass through the blood-brain barrier like propanolol does. :T That would've been neat to try mixing with my galantamine....

[CanisLucidus]

Ah cool! Yeah, I read this paper a while back and it inspired me to purchase some L-glutamine and L-aspartic acid so I could try out Yuschak's "amino acid blend" of 4g L-glutamine, 2g L-aspartic acid, and 300mg L-theanine. (His goal with this was to activate the NMDA receptors and get lucid that way.) His report of a 100% success rate made me ears perk up. I tried it for myself and not much happened, but hey... I'll tweak it and give it another shot. (I did use 400mg of L-theanine since my caps are 200mg.) I was thinking that the next time around I'd cut back L-theanine to 200 mg and maybe include a very small amount of caffeine. What's appealing about this whole amino acid blend thing is that it's such a different path to lucidity from the cholinergic attack of the galantamine + choline combo. Propanolol, huh? How the heck did he come up with that...? Damn, and I have access to atenolol too, but it doesn't pass through the blood-brain barrier like propanolol does. :T That would've been neat to try mixing with my galantamine.... Yeah, the propranoLOL didn't sound all that practical to me. The amino acid blend is IMO the most interesting and accessible piece of this paper.

[Ctharlhie]

100% sure sounds impressive but I wonder how much is down to the confounding variable of Yuschak being a very proficient WILDer (from what I've read of his experience in advanced lucid dreaming).

[CanisLucidus]

100% sure sounds impressive but I wonder how much is down to the confounding variable of Yuschak being a very proficient WILDer (from what I've read of his experience in advanced lucid dreaming). Exactly right! Proficiency + placebo can be a powerful combination. Given this, there is only one way to conduct a proper experiment -- remove the proficiency. That's where I come in.

[Ctharlhie]

Oh right, Yuschak isn't the participant. @Canis; Better get pill-popping.

[Ctharlhie]

All the aspartic acid I've looked at advertises testosterone levels, it looks like a body-building drug, are these blends with added stuff or is that an effect of aspartic acid on its own?

[CanisLucidus]

All the aspartic acid I've looked at advertises testosterone levels, it looks like a body-building drug, are these blends with added stuff or is that an effect of aspartic acid on its own? Yuschak used the L-isomer of aspartic acid (called "L-aspartic acid" vs "D-aspartic acid"), so that's what I picked up. I believe that the D-isomer is what the bodybuilders tend to play with. I don't believe that the L-isomer is used in the synthesis of testosterone. The L-aspartic acid I got was just the acid rather than part of any more complex blend.

[Alyzarin]

He's got the right idea but there's a better way to go about it.... Kainate glutamate receptors would be better to focus on than NMDA. They're known to induce REM when activated in the pons just like muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. You want to deactivate NMDA and AMPA along with it to block excitotoxicity in the meantime. That's what I think anyway....

[CanisLucidus]

He's got the right idea but there's a better way to go about it.... Kainate glutamate receptors would be better to focus on than NMDA. They're known to induce REM when activated in the pons just like muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. You want to deactivate NMDA and AMPA along with it to block excitotoxicity in the meantime. That's what I think anyway.... Great insight from you as usual -- I was not-so-secretly hoping to hear what you thought about this. That's cool on the connection between the kainate receptors and REM... I had never heard about any of that! I'll need to read up. Have you experimented personally with any glutamateric supplements?

[Alyzarin]

Great insight from you as usual -- I was not-so-secretly hoping to hear what you thought about this. That's cool on the connection between the kainate receptors and REM... I had never heard about any of that! I'll need to read up. Have you experimented personally with any glutamateric supplements? Menthol and St. John's wort both increase glutamate levels, and they're both pretty intense. I've been meaning to use an amino acid route too but I just haven't gotten around to it. I would probably start with something like L-glutamine and zinc and work my way up from there. L-glutamine will do the direct increase of glutamate levels. I've come across a couple studies that suggest that high doses of zinc inhibit AMPA receptors (while lower doses apparently enhance their activity), and I know it blocks NMDA receptors as well. Maybe adding some magnesium in would help for extra NMDA antagonist assurance.... And thanks. You should look into the kainate connection and let me know if you find anything cool, I haven't really found that much about it. What I do know though is that tyrosine kinases A and C receptors there are also induce REM, and some cholinergic neurons in the pons are coupled with neurotrophin-3, the endogenous ligand of TrkC. And I know that there are some non-cholinergic neurons with it too, so it makes me wonder.... NGF, nerve growth factor, is the other big thing. It's the endogenous ligand of TrkA, and it's increaesd by some nootropics like noopept and acetyl-L-carnitine. I'm not sure if the increase happens in the pons or not though.... Oh, and by the way, I would avoid L-theanine for the glutamate mix since it apparently blocks kainate receptors too, according to Yuschak's paper.

[CanisLucidus]

Thanks, cool info, Aly! I might eventually shift to a configuration more like what you were considering in the menthol thread. I haven't had any luck with any variations of the amino acid blend so far. I'll keep trying, though. I've tried: 4g L-glutamine, 2g L-aspartic acid, 400mg L-theanine 4g L-glutamine, 2g L-aspartic acid, 1 bag green tea (my oh my does this taste nasty!) So far, neither combo I've tried has resulted in any increase in lucidity or dream quality. I do feel slightly amped and/or aware when trying to fall back asleep but it hasn't really led anywhere interesting. I'll probably try it with 200mg L-theanine next and then start considering some bigger tweaks. I love the idea of working through the glutamateric system, so I hope this will work out.

[Ctharlhie]

@canis; maybe you could just drop the theanine and dd zinc?

[CanisLucidus]

@canis; maybe you could just drop the theanine and dd zinc? Yeah, I expect I'll wind up heading in a direction like that. The only reason I'll be giving the theanine another pass is that I want to give one last shot at some semblance of Yuschak's original blend before I go off in a completely different direction. That'll probably be the last dance with theanine in this mix for a while. Plus it gives me time to stock up on some zinc. (I've already got magnesium!)

[Ctharlhie]

I'll let you guys cut your teeth on these amino blends for a bit before I splash out on yet more supplements Alyzarin's science is starting to go beyond the limits of my working knowledge...

[CanisLucidus]

I'll let you guys cut your teeth on these amino blends for a bit before I splash out on yet more supplements What?? You don't want in on all the success I'm not having?

[Ctharlhie]

n-acetyl l-carnitine @Aly; what did you say would be theffect of N-acetyl l-carnitine?

[Alyzarin]

Thanks, cool info, Aly! I might eventually shift to a configuration more like what you were considering in the menthol thread. I haven't had any luck with any variations of the amino acid blend so far. I'll keep trying, though. I've tried: 4g L-glutamine, 2g L-aspartic acid, 400mg L-theanine 4g L-glutamine, 2g L-aspartic acid, 1 bag green tea (my oh my does this taste nasty!) So far, neither combo I've tried has resulted in any increase in lucidity or dream quality. I do feel slightly amped and/or aware when trying to fall back asleep but it hasn't really led anywhere interesting. I'll probably try it with 200mg L-theanine next and then start considering some bigger tweaks. I love the idea of working through the glutamateric system, so I hope this will work out. Well good luck with it! Just remember not to overdo the glutamate stuff, too much can be very bad for you! If you're that pumped about it though then you should really try starting some racetams and other nootropics, those are some of the safest glutamate drugs there are. And have you heard of sunifiram? I'm thinking about getting some of that too. I'll let you guys cut your teeth on these amino blends for a bit before I splash out on yet more supplements Alyzarin's science is starting to go beyond the limits of my working knowledge... If you need me to explain anything more in-depth I can, I can you bring you up to speed with us. n-acetyl l-carnitine @Aly; what did you say would be theffect of N-acetyl l-carnitine? It increases the expression of nerve growth factor, or NGF, which causes an upregulation of choline acetyltransferase. That makes it so that choline is more easily and rapidly metabolized into acetylcholine, it's the beginning of the choline -> acetylcholine -> choline cycle with acetylcholinesterase and butyrylcholinesterase as the corresponding ending parts. It will do other things too, but that's the most relevant part to dreams.

[Ctharlhie]

Would ngf be potentially dangerous?

[Alyzarin]

Having a lot can potentially lead to problems, but just using a few nootropics isn't going to hurt you. Especially if you're just using them for dreams. The only problems that could come up would be with long-term use. NGF is actually critical for healthy brain development and repair in safe amounts.

[CanisLucidus]

Well good luck with it! Just remember not to overdo the glutamate stuff, too much can be very bad for you! If you're that pumped about it though then you should really try starting some racetams and other nootropics, those are some of the safest glutamate drugs there are. And have you heard of sunifiram? I'm thinking about getting some of that too. Yes, absolutely! I appreciate you emphasizing this, because excitotoxicity is definitely on my mind. I read that bodybuilders frequently supplement with something like 30g of glutamine per day, every day, so that makes me feel better about my 4g once every week or so. I'm a big believer on spacing this stuff out. Hey, so do you see potential for the racetams in inducing lucid dreams or enhancing NLDs?? I haven't seen many accounts of people having luck with that but the idea is intriguing. Something additional I noticed -- I feel slightly more anxious than I typically do. It's not bad at all, although I can't help but think, "Hey, you did just hit your NMDA receptors like 8 hours ago..." Or perhaps it's all in my head. Wait. Of course it's all in my head.

[Alyzarin]

Yes, absolutely! I appreciate you emphasizing this, because excitotoxicity is definitely on my mind. I read that bodybuilders frequently supplement with something like 30g of glutamine per day, every day, so that makes me feel better about my 4g once every week or so. I'm a big believer on spacing this stuff out. Hey, so do you see potential for the racetams in inducing lucid dreams or enhancing NLDs?? I haven't seen many accounts of people having luck with that but the idea is intriguing. Something additional I noticed -- I feel slightly more anxious than I typically do. It's not bad at all, although I can't help but think, "Hey, you did just hit your NMDA receptors like 8 hours ago..." Or perhaps it's all in my head. Wait. Of course it's all in my head. Wow, that's a lot!! I never would have thought you could take that much without problems eventually showing up lol. I still really don't. >.> Bodybuilders are nuts though. They've all had some kind of effect in me so far. Piracetam made me dreams much more detailed and vivid, and it actually changed my waking consciousness the most too. It made it feel like my peripheral vision was actually just another part of my central vision, like I could focus on a much large space at once. That probably helped a lot. I tried aniracetam specifically for dreams once but it gave me insomnia and weird nightmares. So far noopept has been the one that's seemed to help rebalance my neurochemistry the most so far (except for maybe piracetam at the very beginning), and I have noticed some sort of improvement in dream quality since I started taking it. It's hard to put my finger on exactly though. The only others I'm really interested in trying right now are nefiracetam, coluracetam, and sunifiram. I haven't gotten around to trying any of them though. A lot of people do report increased dream vividness with them, so I wouldn't doubt they could be helpful. I bet they where they would really shine though is in helping you train your awareness better while you're using them so then you can push your own dream potential further. They really can lift the fog, so to speak, even if you don't think you have any. Also, I think you'll be fine. Just don't do it too often lol. But those receptors can take it from time to time. And you can always take some nootropics to balance things out in the meantime.

[Ctharlhie]

And thanks. You should look into the kainate connection and let me know if you find anything cool, I haven't really found that much about it. What I do know though is that tyrosine kinases A and C receptors there are also induce REM, and some cholinergic neurons in the pons are coupled with neurotrophin-3, the endogenous ligand of TrkC. And I know that there are some non-cholinergic neurons with it too, so it makes me wonder.... NGF, nerve growth factor, is the other big thing. It's the endogenous ligand of TrkA, and it's increaesd by some nootropics like noopept and acetyl-L-carnitine. I'm not sure if the increase happens in the pons or not though.... Actually, could you explain this whole paragraph I'm getting that tyrosine and carnitine are good for dreams... But I'm lost beyond that. What's trkc? Also, the effects of nootropics sounds insane, I love the bit about peripheral vision!

[Alyzarin]

Actually, could you explain this whole paragraph I'm getting that tyrosine and carnitine are good for dreams... But I'm lost beyond that. What's trkc? Sure, no problem. A "tyrosine kinase" is actually just a type of enzyme, I wasn't trying to specifically support the use of tyrosine for dreams. (Not that it's not useful in its own way.) There are also subfamilies of tyrosine kinases and some of them are receptor proteins. These ones just happen to have some of the most basic names, the one relating to these particular growth factors. Tyrosine kinase A receptor, tyrosine kinase B receptor, and tyrosine kinase C receptor, shortened to TrkA, TrkB, and TrkC, respectively. They all have some generally healthy brain development-oriented effects, including things like REM generation (for A and C) and antidepressant and nootropic effects. Mostly they just become activated from neurotrophic factors, but there are a couple other things that can bind to them too. I actually sort of jumped over this when I went on my serotonin rant before because I kind of forgot about it (though it just makes my point about 5-HTP already being the best choice even stronger), but there's a metabolite of 5-HTP called N-acetylserotonin which binds to TrkB and has nootropic and potentially antidepressant effects. It's possible that that plays a role in its dream-enhancing effects as well, but I couldn't say for sure. I'm not even sure if it's created in significant amounts, but I think it's worth noting. Since in most nootropics these days people are looking for elevated levels of NGF and BDNF, these receptors are also starting to become big targets of interests. It's neat stuff! Is that all clear now? Also, the effects of nootropics sounds insane, I love the bit about peripheral vision! Yeah, I would really love to get that effect again. It makes sense, though. I would guess that it's because piracetam upregulates NMDA receptors. I'm not sure how effectively other nootropics do or don't have this effect... but NMDA antagonists cause dissociative effects which start to detach you from your surroundings, so it would make sense that more NMDA activity would hyperstimulate your connection to your senses.

[Nfri]

File not found, someone has it please? *Edited* Got it...