Thread: Communist morality

Browsing the Internet I found a website with a one-year-old thread entitled “Ethical Stalinism.” The person who started the thread wrote:

Marx predicted a future revolution in which the working class would own the means of production. Lenin realized it would take too long and advocated a militant vanguard that would expedite the revolution and operate the means of production owned by the workers.

www.newyouth.com/archives/marxisttheory.asp

Stalin promoted a rapid and pugnacious transfer to a communist economy regardless of the collateral damage. Setting aside Stalin's paranoia, personal failings, unconscious motives and ruthless behavior, I want to focus on the ethics of his program of rapid rural collectivization and urban industrialization. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leninism

Is it ever ethical to harm a few in order to benefit a majority in the future? For example, is it ever ethical to allow a few to starve to death in order to divert food so a larger number will remain alive even at a subsistent level? Is it ever ethical to sacrifice the living in order to benefit a larger unborn future generation? Is it ever ethical to abolish resisters in the road to achieving your goal of a œUtopian? society in the future? Is it ever ethical to usurp the slow progress of democracy if it results in a better society in a shorter timespan?

One person responded: “I would say violence is most necessary for a revolution, and insofar as it for this cause, its ok.”

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Responding to the above I wrote: “You asked if it is ethical to sacrifice the living in order to benefit a larger unborn future generation? Please answer the following four questions:

a) Who benefitted from killing Bukharin, Trotsky and a large number of other old bolsheviks?

How did killing of Tukchachevsky, and a large number of generals (in late 1930s) help the country to defend itself in 1941?

c) How did forced collectivization (and liquidation of New Economic Policy established by Lenin) help the country to feed itself?

d) How did the deportation of all Chechens (and other national minorities from Georgia, after WWII) to Kazakhstan helped the USSR to consolidate its brotherhood of nations? “

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My questions were not unanswered. Any comments? BY THE WAY,

The book "Hell on Earth: Brutality and Violence Under the Stalinist Regime," at


Autobiography of a Former Communist. Ludwik Kowalski, Ludwik, diary

describes horrors with which most of you are probably familiar. But Section 3.7, entitled "Communist Morality," is probably worth reading and discussing on this forum (and possible on History forum). Two more things worth reading are Chapter 7 and Section 4.5

Chapter 7 is a discussion of Stalinism (by professors at Montclair State University). Section 4.5 provides numerical data on how little American students (also at Montclair State University) know about Stalin. This short and easy-to-read book was written for students like them. Please share the link with history teachers you know; perhaps some of them will assign this FREE ON-LINE book to students. It can also be a base for discussing idea of proletarian dictatorship, which unites all Marxists.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
Professor Emeritus
Montclair State University

Author of --> Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality
.
.

The basically philosophy of people like them, is that it is okay to do evil now, in order to do good later. The basic idea is that as you raise to power, people will resist you, so in order to get absolute power you need to do what you need to do to take over. So you do things like eliminating all your opposition. The hope is that once you eliminate all your enemies, and you have everything firmly in your control, you can then do as you want. Which is when you start to make things better.

In the end you realize that 'communist morality' can be used as an excuse to do just about anything, and the people who practice always in the end, become corrupt with power. People are quick to ask others to give to the greater good, but they rarely start with them self.

Is it ethical? Maybe if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the only way to improve something and that the effects will far outweigh the means. That said, it is extremely difficult to predict exactly what the outcome will be of any given action. Unless you have perfect knowledge of all the options available to you, you still cannot predict the future.

I would be extremely suspicious of anybody with this sort of mindset. However, I would be open-minded enough to consider their viewpoint and the consequences of not taking such an action.

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

Is it ethical? Maybe if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the only way to improve something and that the effects will far outweigh the means. That said, it is extremely difficult to predict exactly what the outcome will be of any given action. Unless you have perfect knowledge of all the options available to you, you still cannot predict the future.

I would be extremely suspicious of anybody with this sort of mindset. However, I would be open-minded enough to consider their viewpoint and the consequences of not taking such an action.

Yes proving "beyond a shadow of a doubt' is impossible, especially in social engineering. Thank you for the interesting comment.
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Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
Profile: Ludwik's books

P.S. My parents, shown in the above 1936 picture, were victims of Leninist morality. I am now 80, writing in their names.
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From a revolutionary point of view I agree with Lenin.
As long as the cause is just, and the set goals are reached minor sacrifices are allowed. In a communist point of view I'd like to sacrifice myself even.
Stalin however sacrificed a shitload of his own population, he deported the other half out of suspicion. Stalin just wanted a huge army. The narrow minded farmer probably thought that impressing other countries with tank divisions and shiny propagandistic buttons of himself would convert other countries to communism.

Communism is a revolutionary current. Stalin chose a 'communism in one country' policy which is everything but revolutionary. It is as conservative as tea time.

I'm sorry for you, Kowalski. I didn't know of your parents.
In Russia there's a saying, big people make big mistakes. And to keep on topic, I don't think Lenin's mistakes and sacrifices weren't resultless, but the sacrifices he made are sadly forgotten because the Utopian society he had in eyes didn't come true.

Also, I read your intro and I am glad that aren't a stalinist anymore and it sounds exciting to read.

I don't like Stalin, but becuase of him I exist. Because of him my grandfather didn't went back to Ukraine after he was capturd by the Nazi's in WWII becuase he knew he would be send to siberia to work and rot away his live there. And in that prison camp he met my grandmother who was also captured in Ukraine and they both came to Belgium after the war, so again without the Nazi's I wouldn't exist.

I don't like the killing Lenin did but I liked the idea he had

Originally Posted by DarkComrade

I don't like the killing Lenin did but I liked the idea he had

The idea of equality and justice are much older than those formulated by Lenin and Marx.


Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
profile: Ludwik's books

Originally Posted by kowalskil

The idea of equality and justice are much older than those formulated by Lenin and Marx.

Still, if my dad would like cherry pies. And if I would like cherry pies, the idea of liking cherry pies is not my fathers but mine in my case. In my fathers case it would be his idea.

I would say violence is most necessary for a revolution, and insofar as it for this cause, its ok

That is not true, what about Ghandi, he used no violence, and that was indeed a successful revolution, people think violence is nescasary to get things done, but really it's just a wrinkled up psychopath's excuse to play their sick fucked up games.

In my opinion there's a difference between psychopathic violence and violence. If not, the entire t.v. industry would be psychopathic. And the music industry and the gaming industry,... . Sometimes, when you're sick of getting tossed around you got to stand up for your rights.

Violence nevertheless used as a mean of repression of the population can almost not be beaten by being pacifist. In other countries where pacifist revolutions were tried*Birma*, it was less successful. And in my opinion the end justifies the means.

Also, although Ghandi was a great leader, the changes in India and Pakistan under his 'rule' weren't always how he wanted it. I think he wnated to see a unified country.

has anyone of you lived under communism?

do you even know wtf are you speaking?

has anyone of you seen the movie The Soviet Story at least?

want to know more about that?



The Soviet Story (2008) - IMDb


here is it in pictures

I was a child in a communist country and I wasn`t allowed to speak my own language, because WE ARE ALL EQUAL

I wonder why?

I didn't live under a communist reign. This is simply because no one ever lived under a communist reign. The brutal, harsh and unforgiveable regimes of the Soviet Union, North Korea, Cambidia,... weren't really communist. They may have had leftwing ideas, but true communism hasn't took place on this earth, except for some small communes perhaps, yet. I can say I am a fisherman, I can buy a rod, a hook, a line, fish even, but all those things don't make me a fisherman unless I go fish.

I like to believe I know what I'm speaking of, even though I'm still young.{Which might be the reason why I'm extreme left wing.} And because I have read quite a bit about communism, which was more about the monstrous regimes than the theories. But it's still the theories and not the times communism was tried I like.

And I haven't seen that movie yet, But I have seen a lot of other anti-soviet movies, books etc.

Also, funny avatar, hpnfreak

Originally Posted by Oktober

I didn't live under a communist reign. This is simply because no one ever lived under a communist reign. The brutal, harsh and unforgiveable regimes of the Soviet Union, North Korea, Cambidia,... weren't really communist. They may have had leftwing ideas, but true communism hasn't took place on this earth, except for some small communes perhaps, yet. I can say I am a fisherman, I can buy a rod, a hook, a line, fish even, but all those things don't make me a fisherman unless I go fish.

I like to believe I know what I'm speaking of, even though I'm still young.{Which might be the reason why I'm extreme left wing.} And because I have read quite a bit about communism, which was more about the monstrous regimes than the theories. But it's still the theories and not the times communism was tried I like.

And I haven't seen that movie yet, But I have seen a lot of other anti-soviet movies, books etc.

Also, funny avatar, hpnfreak

in communism you have nothing, everything belongs to the state, maybe your clothes and furniture and tv, but that`s it

your job is given by the state, if you are a dentist and they need a dentist in another part of the country, they will take you there, if you refuse, jail

if there`s been met the yearly quota of dentists, you are not allowed to be a dentist, you refuse to become something else the state assignes you, jail

you were not allowed to move out of your town, if they found you 10 miles radius of your birth place, jail, 10 years

if you had a watch, that wasn`t made in the soviet block and you had no proof of buying that, jail 5 years

if you wanted to destroy the neighbour you hated, you had to typewrite a letter, in witch you described the great leader as a monkey who is having sex with goats, then hide that paper in his home or jacket at the workplace, go and tell the secret police, he was either sentenced to 20 years or executed that same week

everybody over 18 was a party member, if you refused to join the party, jail

and there were the inner party members who controlled everything and owned nothing and took a large dump on everybody, the new burgeois, read orwell`s animal farm, the same thing

your problem is, that you don`t like capitalism, because you think, you are special, no you are not, you could have been born a leaf of grass or a bacteria, you are human, be happy of that until you are alive

you just sit home and contemplate

most people 100 years ago run their own businesses, had no paycheck, no retirement plan

communism doesn`t work, even the chinese dropped it, they don`t have democracy, but have capitalism

The communism you describe is very cruel. But apart from cruel it was also real for every human being who lived under a 'communist regime', which is, I can't even imagine how bad, terrible. I have read animal farm, and it is virtually, if not 100% the same as what happened in the Soviet union. The ideals were great, I still think that, but I don't agree AT ALL with what happened in the USSR or other 'communist' countries.

Personally I don't believe in reincarnation So I don't think I could as well be a leaf or an ant, but I do think I am special. You are special, everyone in this world is unique which is very special in itself. But unless you were me you can't possibly understand how it came that I despise capitalism and that I've turned into a leftie. In France they say: 'des goûts et des couleurs on ne dispute pas'. Which means that about personal taste it's very hard to discuss. Being left is just something inside me.
I can't stand the way we shun the drought of Africa for example or the slums practically all over the world. Instead, we're busy if we should buy a 50 inch flatscreen. Or we're doubting between diesel or gasoline. Or we're complaining about how the gas prices are up again. These are not the problems, we, humans should be worrying about. If we hadn't built all our nukes, we could have fed and educated the poor in the world many times over.

I do completely understand the way people don't trust communism. And I'm glad they do! I'm glad people just don't 'swallow before they chew'. every form of government should be criticized. I'm not a huge fan of the way things are done now, but that doesn't mean I defend the eastgerman repressing system.

I dont know much about communism I really dont. But what I know is that if you ask people in my country 98% of them will say that they had better lives during the period of communism. I live in Macedonia, wasnt born born in Yugoslavia but this is what people say.

Originally Posted by Kristijan

I dont know much about communism I really dont. But what I know is that if you ask people in my country 98% of them will say that they had better lives during the period of communism. I live in Macedonia, wasnt born born in Yugoslavia but this is what people say.

because they were made dumb as regarding money

everybody had a job, just because he existed and to some people this was enough

just make sure to check out the other end of the spectrum too