SP to LD... that pesky little last step.

Hello guys, I've been reading quite a bit throughout these forums and I thank you all for the wealth of information on LD.
That being said, there's still a little doubt going around in my head...

I've been trying to achieve LD sporadically for some time now, and I've decided to take it seriously. I've had the occasional "Oh... I must be dreaming" dream, but without great consequences. It seems like I sort of become aware of the fact that I'm dreaming, but I'm not really interested in doing anything about it, short of eliminating any uncomfortable element. For example, I have had dreams of someone chasing me and right when they're about to "kill" me I realize it's a dream, and make them disappear... then just happily let my sub-conscious take over once again. So, as you can see, DILD has not cut it for me.

This is why I'm trying WILD now, which I know is a lot harder to achieve, and have a couple of questions about it. Most of those I've been able to find an answer to by going through these forums. I'm extremely satisfied to learn that itches and "crams" are just ways our sub-conscious tries to determine whether we're asleep or not, and I'm also happy to read that flashes and abstract figures flailing around are part of the process as well... but right there is when it gets a little weird for me.

I usually have no problem going to bed and into a state of early SP, after I've let all itches and discomforts torture me for a while, I start seeing "luminescent" figures (a ring that seems to shrink from outside my field of view to the center of it, circles of light, something I usually describe to myself as "my own irirs", etc) and then I can't take it from there.

Usually right after this stage I seem to fiercely try to focus my sight on something, which causes me to become very aware of my physical eyes and they may even start to hurt a little. When I command myself to stop that, I begin to experience R.E.M. (great band by the way, I love them). Now, the problem is that this is not full blown R.E.M., I just get the eye movement and I don't see anything. I haven't read similar reports in the forums (please excuse me if there are some, I just didn't find them), and I don't know whether this is normal or is it just my own suggestion moving my eyes while trying to say "see... see... I've got R.E.M., I've got it, seriously... now where's that LD?". This morning I got to a point where my eyes started flickering open, and I've read that's also part of the process... it is a shame though that I've got a window right in front of me and this allowed for the light to invade my sight :(

Well... I'm sorry for the long read and I appreciate you taking the time to go through all of it. I am seriously looking forward to hearing your comments and advices on this.

Regards!

Do you do this when you first go to sleep at night? Try it after four or five hours of sleep, when you know you are close to a REM cycle and some vivid dreams. Trying to WILD at the wrong time almost always causes exactly what you are describing. Everything goes well, but you just don't have a dream to enter.

Also, try to let your thoughts slip a little. Let yourself drift towards sleep a bit. Remember, you are not trying to keep yourself from falling asleep. You are just trying to fall asleep without losing your consciousness/ awareness.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Do you do this when you first go to sleep at night? Try it after four or five hours of sleep, when you know you are close to a REM cycle and some vivid dreams. Trying to WILD at the wrong time almost always causes exactly what you are describing. Everything goes well, but you just don't have a dream to enter.

Also, try to let your thoughts slip a little. Let yourself drift towards sleep a bit. Remember, you are not trying to keep yourself from falling asleep. You are just trying to fall asleep without losing your consciousness/ awareness.

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Thanks. I usually do it right when I go to sleep... just to get in the mindset and to practice a bit, then I do it again in the middle of the night when I wake up. It really seems impossible for me to let my mind drift away... Hell, today morning I was even snoring but fully awake in my mind :S

Thanks again! I'll keep trying...

It sounds like you are extremely close. Your timing might be the only problem. Probe around a little to figure out when you normally have vivid dreams, then plan accordingly. You want to hit this state of mind right as a long dream cycle is approaching.

It sounds like you are currently lucid in your alpha stage of sleep. This is not necessarily a bad thing. You can hang out here as long as you want. Feel confident knowing you have reached the ultimate goal of many forms of meditation and trance induction! There are whole religions based around meditating in this state of mind. In Tibetan Dream Yoga, you learn to be lucid throughout the entire nights sleep. All night, every night.

When you reach this point in the process, and you feel like you are stuck, or at some sort of road block, try just relaxing. Stop trying to do anything. Just be confident that you have reached the proper state of mind, and then let it all go. Let your mind do what it does naturally. Let your thoughts drift and just be a passive observer of the transition. Enjoy the peacefulness, and just wait for a dream to start.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

It sounds like you are extremely close. Your timing might be the only problem. Probe around a little to figure out when you normally have vivid dreams, then plan accordingly. You want to hit this state of mind right as a long dream cycle is approaching.

It sounds like you are currently lucid in your alpha stage of sleep. This is not necessarily a bad thing. You can hang out here as long as you want. Feel confident knowing you have reached the ultimate goal of many forms of meditation and trance induction! There are whole religions based around meditating in this state of mind. In Tibetan Dream Yoga, you learn to be lucid throughout the entire nights sleep. All night, every night.

When you reach this point in the process, and you feel like you are stuck, or at some sort of road block, try just relaxing. Stop trying to do anything. Just be confident that you have reached the proper state of mind, and then let it all go. Let your mind do what it does naturally. Let your thoughts drift and just be a passive observer of the transition. Enjoy the peacefulness, and just wait for a dream to start.

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That's really encouraging. Thank you. We'll see what the weekend has in store for me :)

This is often the problem I encounter. The other is that I lose concentration and end up falling asleep, but it's mainly this. I just lie there watching some images, but no dream ever materialises.

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Originally Posted by TeaSea

This is often the problem I encounter. The other is that I lose concentration and end up falling asleep, but it's mainly this. I just lie there watching some images, but no dream ever materialises.

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I hear you! I also start recalling events of the day... and I kind of see them fly by in front of me... but that's as close as I get.

You guys sound like masters of sleep paralysis. Congratulations. Believe it or not, what you guys have become good at IS the hard part of WILD'ing! As Robot Butler said, try to incorporate a WBTB that takes advantage of your best REM states. After about 4 - 6 hours of sleep, REM is typically at its finest.

TomcatMVD, after reading your post I am positive you have not experienced SP. Just like Robot_Butler said, this is trying to WILD at the wrong time.

In SP you will be unable to move, unless you really force yourself to move your head and wake up that way. As I've said many times on this forum, SP is a unique experience. You said:

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I usually do it right when I go to sleep...

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And there's your mistake. Try this: Sleep for 5 hours, wake up, be awake 15 minutes or so, and go back to bed. Then try WILDing.

Good luck.

Jakob

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Originally Posted by Jeff777

You guys sound like masters of sleep paralysis. Congratulations. Believe it or not, what you guys have become good at IS the hard part of WILD'ing! As Robot Butler said, try to incorporate a WBTB that takes advantage of your best REM states. After about 4 - 6 hours of sleep, REM is typically at its finest.

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One can only hope :) Thank you Jeff

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Originally Posted by Jakob

TomcatMVD, after reading your post I am positive you have not experienced SP. Just like Robot_Butler said, this is trying to WILD at the wrong time.

In SP you will be unable to move, unless you really force yourself to move your head and wake up that way. As I've said many times on this forum, SP is a unique experience. You said:



And there's your mistake. Try this: Sleep for 5 hours, wake up, be awake 15 minutes or so, and go back to bed. Then try WILDing.

Good luck.

Jakob

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Hi Jakob. Thanks. Like I said... I try when I go to bed... just for "practice", and then again once I wake up in the middle of the evening. I don't expect to achieve LD the first time... but I figure it helps setting the mood (?) I also believe I haven't achieved full SP (I used the term "early SP" to convey that idea) since I remember having experienced it only once after waking up in the middle of a dream, only to find I could not open my eyes or get out of bed. It's pretty consistent with what I've read though... and I'm positive I've experienced at least the first stages of SP.

I haven't read through the thread, but this is what I know. If your in a REM cycle, and you go into SP, you should be pulled into a lucid dream, OR you might see a dream scene, but you have to reach out and interact with it first, then you will be immersed into it.

Well... it's definitively SP. Last night while in it, my wife moved to a position that caused me some discomfort on my leg, so I made the conscious decision to move my leg away... I couldn't. Still no LD though... I will try to refrain from trying this while I first go to bed, It's starting to cause me some headaches :(

dont sit and let an itch bother you or a discomfort because then your mind will just concentrate on that rather than the getting to sleep part.
if an itch it pestering me i just scratch it no matter how numb my body is, eventually im going to be in a position i feel comfortable in and after i while i like to roll onto my side to then go deeper into relaxation - had my first WILD last night

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Originally Posted by lucydity

dont sit and let an itch bother you or a discomfort because then your mind will just concentrate on that rather than the getting to sleep part.
if an itch it pestering me i just scratch it no matter how numb my body is, eventually im going to be in a position i feel comfortable in and after i while i like to roll onto my side to then go deeper into relaxation - had my first WILD last night

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Great. Will keep that in mind. Thanks.

First attempt at WILD during an afternoon nap:

I am able to relax and SP comes easier than during bedtime. My mind though, violently yanks me out of every dream as they start to take form. I seem to be so close yet so far from it, since I don't think I can control this last reflex. I don't get into a dream and say "Hey...I'm dreaming", but rather as soon as an illogical thought crosses my mind and is considered true, alarms go off through my entire brain, and it decides to pull me off.
I experienced this four or five times during this nap... really frustrating.

First Lucid

Ok... to be honest, I was about to let it go and forget about LDing... until today.

I didn't go to work today... I've been down with a stomach virus... so I got to sleep until later. After waking up and calling in sick I went back to bed... and since I felt sleep was coming with ease, I decided to give WILD another shot. So I tried it one more time... all of a sudden, sure enough... there I was laying on my bed in a very awkward position, with my torso hanging down the side of the bed. I knew right away I was sleeping. I experienced that amazing clarity everyone speaks of. Colors were vibrant and I could feel the warmth of the orange glow of the sun coming through the window. I made the decision to move out of bed really slow... and I started walking towards the door... I suddenly realized I was not hearing anything so I thought perhaps the dream wasn't yet fully stabilized, so I started rubbing my hands. I could feel them and more important... I could hear my hands rubbing... this was getting pretty good... at that moment I heard a loud "bang" noise and it woke me up :( My wife had waken up some time ago and was doing stuff in the kitchen... noisy kind of stuff...

At least now I know is possible... is just that it looks like I won't be able to LD during weekdays...

You've made a tonne more progress than most beginners :) You should invest in some silicone ear plugs if you don't want your WILDing to be disrupted by noise.

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

You've made a tonne more progress than most beginners :) You should invest in some silicone ear plugs if you don't want your WILDing to be disrupted by noise.

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¡Thanks! I might try that... at least on weekends ;)

UPDATE:

Another LD this morning... what I think was my first real successful WILD. I couldn't see anything yet but I knew I was dreaming. I woke up and rubbed my hands. Started walking towards the bedroom door and there I started to gain "sight". I walked through my closed front door and this time I could fly.

Didn't feel like opening a new thread for this :)