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Thanks man :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marko88
First qeustion: yes it can be done after 6 hours of sleep. I prefer around 3 hours because I find it easier to DEILD but it is purely up to you, try experimenting with the time you wake up to feel whats best.
Second question: Counting is a good method, I like it. Again you gotta see what suits you, Counting and visualization work for me, but other prefer other methods. Give it a shot :)
Thanks man, last night alarm didnt wake me up so i will try again tonight :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
Thank you man you are the best.It worked first time i tryed.But i wok up before the alarm,fell asleep after turning it off(i tought that i failed wothout the alarm),i had a normal dream and after that i woked up.Compleetly still with my eyes closed and i a few seconds i feeled vibration and saw yellow lights,then saw the dreamscene.I focused on it and bang i was in the dream fully lucid.I spended like an hour or so.I accidently woke up but did the tehnique again and reentered,thank man!
Ahaha great stuff. Well done :D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by fasttraceur2
hey.i still wonder.If i wake up and i am not in rem,can i still deild?idk at what time i woked up after that dream...and i dont wanna spend a lot of nights just to find my rem...But i got to mention that i dream alot.Today my last dream stoped when i woke up at 12am.And i go to bed at like 23:00.But i sleep till 09:00-13:00 am...i will set my alarm after 4 hours of sleep,its that ok if i go to sleep at 23:00?
It is possible, but it can go wrong. However if you happen to try DEILD outside of REM and you don't enter a dream you will usually just fall asleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by fasttraceur2
4 hours after sleep is perfect. My favourite is between 3-4 lately but I've DEILDed at every time of the morning. The later you do it in the morning the higher chance of waking from a dream, however it will be harder to fall asleep. The inverse is true of waking up early, easier to fall asleep but less likely to wake up in a dream. You have to find that mix for yourself.
Thank you man.i apreaciate it.Btw i like to use the iphone calendar for a 2 seconds bip.It is wrong if the volume is too high?i tryed once on high volume and woke me up and i was refreshed :)),but i think if i set up a low volume it will only bring my awarness and not wake me up completly.
If you guys don´t mind, maybe i can help here :)Quote:
Originally Posted by fasttraceur2
I use an alarm clock ( 2 seconds bip ) every 15 minutes after 4,5 hours of sleep. Usually it hits right in REM 2/3 times per night. I usually can DEILD 1/2 times ( mostly OBE´s )
Try with different volumes..and you will find the best one. And choose a soft ringtone ! Some of them are very arousing
To greatly increase the chances of hearing the alarm, i also do WBTB + SSILD. It´s been pretty effortless for me.
I would like to add something that I read somewhere ages ago... Basically after you wake up, you imagine yourself on your bed as you are lying there (first person), but imagine that there is a skewer going through your body from head to toe. Now some force is spinning this skewer, and you are seeing your ceiling/wall/bed/wall/ceiling (fill in additional details which are in your room, paintings, posters, furniture etc) and keep doing this until you feel what dutchraptor described as an "extremely uncomfortable" sensation. When you get this, imagine yourself spinning off of your bed onto the floor; since this is all imagined, what should happen is that you should fall out of your body into a dream. Let the fun begin.
That could totally work, thanks for the tip :)Quote:
Originally Posted by shroomer
Awesome guide, I tried DEILD a few times before but your guide is so good that I must try it.
I believe this time it will be a success :) thanks Raptor
No prob man :D Let us know how it goes :)
Well my first attempt with your technique went like this Accidentally incubated dream - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
so it's kinda promising :) I will try it again tonight.
Can i ask just this?
If you wake up and almost dont move and just act as if youre about to go to sleep is there any chance you might nail a deild with time?
I'll definitely try this! Thanks dutchraptor!
Every time I've tried DEILD after a LD I've never made it back in. However a few nights ago I reentered a dream (non-lucidly, alas) for the first time. The big difference was the state of mind: I was lying quietly, including mentally quietly after the (very brief) LD, lightly thinking about the dream, and I just drifted off and re-entered the dream in a room to the side of where I got lucid. Normally I'm pretty stimulated after a LD, perhaps frustrated a bit at waking up. For me the key is basically staying quiet and staying asleep, and just drifting off again.
The big question then is how to get that pearl of awareness in there to arrive in the dream already lucid...I'll have to experiment.
You might, it all just depends on circumstances. Experiment with it, usually a lot of successful attempts are ruined just thinking that some things shouldn't happen. I've gone from thinking that you should lie completely silently to thinking you should be free to move and back and forth multiple times. There is no proper way exactly to do it, other than to feel your success and be relaxed.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicMember44
Entering sleep without losing consciousness is a delicate process since you must let your body fall asleep, requiring a certain level of calmness. Yet at the same time you must keep your mind awake. More than a year I've practiced Deild and I'm still not sure where the line is.
Just keep trying and eventually you'll hit the spot.
Ahaha love your thinking there. I'm actually a large fan lately of just falling back to sleep with the intention of somehow keeping my awareness (and regaining it before I have fully entered a dream). There used to be an excellent guide floating around that described precisely that process, and I really liked it because of it's simplicity. Basically the only step is to fall asleep with that intention of holding your awareness.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Experimenting is the key, equally important though is not getting frustrated when it doesn't work out. For literally the past two or three months I didn't get a single LD through DEILD, yet I know I am able.
It can get very frustrating since there's not much to DEILD, if you fail you will only know the next day a lot of the time which gives the impression of a wasted night. In reality every night, failure or success, is valuable. To outline this, just a few nights ago I had one of the most revelation filled hypnagogic sessions, despite having gone through at least a hundred of them already. I just lay there not thinking or anything and all of a sudden I saw the clearest image of a window ever and I instantly remembered that the core to this whole process is falling asleep. A method is a great way to go about Deilding, but only when you follow it loosely. Keeping each step actively in the brain is a waste of energy and a definite way of making sure that you will have a hard time falling asleep.
Woohoo, just woke from my first DEILD!!!!!
It was soooo cool. The details are a bit hazy, but I was recalling some dreams from the night, lightly thinking about them, glad that I had any recall at all (having imbibed on New Year's Eve, and gotten to bed crazy late), and decided to just try to drift off quietly and DEILD, very lightly thinking of one of the dreams.
The next thing I knew I was looking at some indoor scene in a hallway in a house. I think I was aware as the image formed and brightened. It was very bright, the lighting was very good. I thought wow, this is a really solid image, normally my HI is brief but this was really stable, I was kind of puzzled at where it came from. I just looked for about 10-15 seconds. I stepped in to the scene and it was a dream! I got a lucid rush, turned up a staircase to my left, bounded up the stairs, exclaiming, "YES! It worked!" reached the landing at the top of the stairs, another hallway, turned right, a bathroom was right there, I walked into it and started to shut the door behind me, and faded to awake in bed.
The cool thing about this was that I did not wake from a lucid, it was just a ND. Oh boy, I think 2014 is going to be the year of the DEILD for me, this is VERY exciting. I'm going to look into the alarm based options as well!
Stay quiet, stay asleep, and DEILD!
Thank you dutchraptor for this guide - one of the things, I wonder how I didn't read it already.
After what I have experienced - I think it was three times up to now - I thought/also got told - it had been DEILDs.
All the while having doubts about that - since once only, while trying WILD - I had intense vibrations and an extremely clear optical hallucination of a clear blue complex mandala - and then broke off the attempt.
And what I did was more like - waking up from an LD - falling asleep and with short loss of consciousness - to instantly be back in the same dream and lucid.
But not a real transition from being awake.
After what you describe - this is rather an instant DILD follow-up.
I have been able since a long time to sometimes re-enter a non-lucid, if I liked it, after waking up from it - and moving about - even getting up.
I think, these supposed DEILDs of mine were that with lucidity.
My husband is fiddling with my I-Phone at the moment - I wanted this auto-snooze for following another tutorial with multiple alarms - but couldn't get something installed.
Now I will - I really want to try this out tonight.
I suppose, that having had these HH once while almost transitioning - I should get them with a transit in general.
Or do you sometimes not experience any and DEILD anyway?
I would so love to learn DEILD - also pure WILD - but with your approach - the controllability will already be much improved.
Now I just need to get the tech-part right - I am not willing to program myself on waking up noticeably after every dream. That would in the future maybe interfere with work-schedule.
Because of having less time soon - I really want to learn something, that can easily be planned with.
Will report back.
My chances should be high with it, I think - because of this re-entering with short loss of consciousness coming relatively easy to me.
Was watching Michael van Gerwen smash all of his opponents over the last weeks and winning the World Championship of Darts yesterday by the way - what a player!!
Many Dutch are very, very good - you any interested in darts?
Cheers - aand - I wonderful new year I wish you!
Indeed, though I would often consider the instant Dild to be an equally effective technique. While the two can be very different, there is also the way of doing DEILD (as outlined above) where we have a short lapse in consciousness, yet become lucid before entering the dream. So for a large part they share some properties.Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
Exactly, that's a good example. Those non-lucids do actually exhibit lucid properties though, the fact that you can recall a dream scene like that implies there is some control involved...Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
Not always, but the problem with DEILD is that, sometimes they're very clear and sometimes is a big mess. So I can't conclusively say exactly how it feels, because I forget the feeling as soon as I'm not experiencing it (on most occasions).Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
There are two cases were I have gone against the coming norms of lucid dreaming, multiple times where I've entered dreams consciously with absolutely no HH, and a few times I've entered a lucid before sleep. Both cases have proved to me that almost anything can happen, in any circumstance.
If you succeed, it certainly can, hence why I made the title "becoming an LD god". On the other hand, it's not a forgiving technique. The alarm method works, but poorly in comparison to being able to wake naturally and you will waste many nights experimenting. The natural approach on the other hand can take months to master, with may seem like wasted months. When you fail a DEILD attempt, you should fall asleep (always pull through to the end) and you will probably just wake up the next morning without a lucid.Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
When you do master it though.....It's very powerful.
Good luck, as you said you should do fine. Hope you get it quickly :)Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
Yup, I watched it too. Not a true fan, but I enjoy watching the world championships and I like playing darts. Michael van gerwen is crazy good.Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
Happy new year to you too stephL. Let's hope 2014 is a fruitful year for LDing :D
Thank you!
Ah - I have a problem - thought my husband had sorted it out - do you know, how to do the auto-snooze on DreamZ, goodNite or Alarmed for I-Phone - am too stupid/tired and husband too unwilling..?
Otherwise I consult the net tomorrow.
Maybe the waking up will not be a problem - I try it for tonight, if I don't get an alarm going off on it's own.
Interesting at what you hint there - will surely ask more one time.
You know - I dream of trying out lucid darting - just saw a documentary* on Arté - about lucid dreaming - also in sports-psychology..
I think of slow-motion, 3rd person perspective, simulating a pro teaching you - some sort of drive towards good gestalt, I read about..
Edit: *Saw it yesterday evening - repetition on Sunday 11:20 am or so.
HAHAHA!!
I think i got an extra bounce closer to deild :).
What came to me tonight is that groggyness is a big part of deild and that you cant succeed if you wake and do everything right but this.
Also you dont have to stay still completely as long as you dont turn over cause too much movement will
just wake you up from the trance.
A leg or arm is okay if its in a weird postition actually it is better for me if i move arm or leg i think.
This way you wont feel excited about deild cause your tired and will focus more on sleep.
I will focus on this and i felt like this just this morning :) sad i could not give it much of a try because im not sleeping at home and my little nephew was making too much sound.
Anyway i dont think a normal way of deild will work for me cause most of the time i wake up but feel completely awake and even if i stay still for a normal deild so this one needs a bit of luck as well.
With this you TRULY are closer to sleep than with a normal wild haha.
I understand now how gab meant with her deild and how she think it works also i thank you. Duthcraptor for giving me advice that could lead up to this :)
Please - somebody tell me how to get auto-snooze on I-Phone - which app - how and where to put it - might be I am stupid or too lazy - but so many times it is mentioned - surely somebody can help me? I can't find the function in my above mentioned apps.
If not in here - I will open a thread on it. :)
Mine is called 'Alarm Clock HD - Free'. It does work and it does have an autosnooze function. You can chose a song from your iPhone or any sound you like and then set the time after which it turns itself off... It is really easy to find. You just create a new alarm and then you get the option 'autosnooze'. The only downside is that it won't work if you close the app so that means that your battery gets drained quite a bit if you keep it open all night long. I hope this helps :)Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
Hope you find it, StephL ! I think not many people use this tech, at least to its full potential. Many people just set one alarm and most often not an autosnooze one. I am glad i found an app for android, but you can´t imagine how furious i get when it doesn´t work. It´s so annoying: you are putting all your hopes in that silly alarm, and then...oh «new update: bug fixed»
edit: did you check these ?
http://appcrawlr.com/ios-apps/best-apps-auto-snooze
Thanks guys - let's see if I get this sorted after all - will report back!
Well - started checking in the link - and in one there is a mention of autosnooze missing - either in that, or in it since ages before now - unclear..
And in one I do not find it - you searched for any mention of auto-snooze I guess?
But I found Sivason`s "shake-it-auto-snooze" and a "touch it snooze"..
Will just get what you got later..
I just made a quick google search :D. I think i have told you this before, lol, but it was a painstaking experience to find the app. I installed one by one and excluded one by one..
At least I do not feel stupid any more now - this is horror!!Quote:
Originally Posted by VagalTone
I have this App now - and it has no auto-snooze!Quote:
Originally Posted by benni
Is this the way your´s looks?
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psc2d796e5.jpg
^^ well.... I am very sorry! :( I own three alarm clock apps and apparently I linked you the wrong one! Now this is the one that has got an Autosnooze function: https://itunes.apple.com/nz/app/alar...452111430?mt=8 In the description it says "- Auto-snooze: If your device is far from you, you can set an auto-snooze option. Your alarm will snooze after a defined time and you can also set how many times it will auto-snooze.".... Apparently this app costs 1.29$.
I am really sorry for this inconvenience! I have tried three alarm clocks and apparently I just gave you the wrong name. But now I guarantee you that this app does have the autosnooze function :)
Okay - will get this on Monday - needs another computer says my husband - hach - thank you - all not so easy - but if I get this Monday - I will finally be there - so that is good!
Whoohoo - I got an app, which can almost do what I want from it!
Thank you benni once more!
It is able to produce an alarm for 5 seconds - and that seems to be a good span - every half hour.
A longer interim is not possible - and eventually it rings through and has to be stopped.
I tried it out last night - not well prepared, since I had my mates over till late - or rather early - and no other LD-preps.
But I made a mistake - would have come to the realization anyway - but just checked page one here - and that confirms it for me - started too late.
First alarm was after 5 hours - and caught me already awake..
Not sure, if it's really true - but I seem to remember, that I was already awake for all 4 times it went off - bit weird - but a start.
Like you recommend it dutchraptor - tonight the first goes off after 3 h of sleep!
Has anybody got more tips on the timing?
Was there not also a thread with multiple alarms in the title?
*goes searching*
Nice you have found one ! I think timing is a bit personal, but i use 6 hours after bedtime, and 15 min intervals. Many times i try other settings, and sometimes i play with it like waking up and falling asleep for 3 minutes when i am really sleepy... yeah very flexible stuff. Definitely, this is a research only you can do, but now you have the app :) which is the most important.
Now, StephL, this alarm deild will hit many times when you are not dreaming..and it may not be much worthwhile other than to make you remember to care about lucid dreaming.
The real opportunity will come when it hits in the middle of REM ! Now imagine if we have in the future a reliable device that hits only in REM and effectively arouses u. That may be very soon i hope
The only downside of this stuff is that it can be very annoying ( specially if we share the bedroom :P ) but ,again, i hope soon it won´t be anymore :)
Yeah - found that other thread - and consider to let it go off every 15 min now...
What was missing last night was a proper intention and preparation - I more or less just put it and repeated some several times, that I would lay still, eyes closed and re-enter the dream lucidly after going to bed.
I might have been hovering in an almost daydream for a while - or whatever happened, that I do remember them going off, but believed, to always have been awake, when they did.
Can't be - interesting again, how easily memory plays tricks on you! I have slept while the alarm-phase with every half hour for 3 h - and can't be it caught me always in between dreams.
Will experiment - and pay attention - and implant a stronger desire - somehow, I didn't really care, if it works again - from the partying, probably..
This night I will plan it better - esp. do a WBTB, if I do not hit success with several alarm repetitions.
I'll put it off then and go my usual way - or maybe better than usual and indeed do induce a WILD in WBTB.
Usual for me means attempting WILD - and then later getting a DILD from the attempt.
Got to check, but the success-rate with this was quite good last two months.
Edit: Good for me - in this respect - that my husband and me sleep apart.
They should add a DEILD alarm in the NovaDreamer 2! We should nag them about it :cheecky:
Got to report - doing that all over the forum just now - but here it must be as well:
It woohoorked!!
:yddd:Quote:
I did my first real non-lucid to LD DEILD last night!!
With my multiple alarm auto-snooze function - I use this: Alarm Clock Bud Pro for IPhone
Thank you loads for that benni!
Was the second of 6 alarms I set with 30 min. intervals - two woke me, and with some mantra-ing I fell back asleep, two found me awake and one I must have missed.
It was feeling super-easy - the alarm woke me from a dream - I listened to it - 5 sec..
My face was towards the bed - and fitting that position - I suddenly could look through my eyelids like through a camera-seeker - and saw the ground, covered in decorative pebbles.
It felt easy to make that bigger and more realistic - then came a bodily "wuusch"-feeling - and I was there!
First LD after a longer dry-spell.
Which I had brought upon myself by suspending all activities, waiting for the application to be found and bought.
I just used this technique successfully for the first time last night! I've tried using auto-snooze alarms on several occasions in the past, but I never made the effort to remain completely still because I didn't think it mattered that much. Well, I know now that it does.
My alarm went off twice during the night. The first time, I forgot to stay still so I just fell back to sleep. The second time, I immediately remembered to remain motionless when I woke up. Literally within 30 seconds, my body went into sleep paralysis. I've never gone into sleep paralysis that quickly in my life. Using my dream body, I sat up in my bed and started trying to make a dream scene materialize, but all I could see was blackness. I woke up a minute later before I could enter a full-blown dream. I think I was too excited about the technique working.
So even though it didn't technically lead to a lucid dream, it did put me into SP very quickly, and the potential of that has me really excited. Between this technique and a few other tips I learned recently, I feel like I'm making significant progress for the first time in years. Thanks, dutchraptor!
No problem :)
Good work, you'll get there eventually.
Probably been asked before, but can you actually DEILD with an alarm or is it only for practice?
you can, but it's not as effective in the long haul. The problem with alarms is that you can wake up at the wrong time, and generally aren't of the same level of awareness as you would be normally.
If you can keep it up, intent will get you much further
Anyway - I'll get my alarms in tonight - got to do something more, than up to now for the comp! Attachment 6730
Just like to say, i was really close to getting this technique to work. I managed to set an alarm at a perfect volume which will sometimes wake me up, but is not too loud and finishes very quickly. It woke me up last night around 4:15 and because it was quiet, i managed to calmly come up of the dream. I managed to lay still, and keep my eyes completely closed. However, i think i messed up in this part. Because I couldn't recall my last dream at this point i ended up concentrating on my body and keeping still which made my body tense up a bit. Swallowing was a problem because i was thinking about my body, and I never really felt SP or any other sensations, so I gave up.
Basically, long story short, Im close and think with a bit more practice at this re-entry stage, i should be good to go.
Great tutorial, thank you. Now I'm just having issues with the clock, I downloaded the android one and dont know how to make it automatically turn off.
Great Tutorial :D
I was trying few days ago using DEILD
When i woke up and broke probatly rem phase i've remembered to not move and keep my eyes closed then i've felt quite weird sensations.
I feel'd something like waves of numbness going throught my legs
Each wave made my body feel more numb etc.
Then for some reason i had urge to stand up and i've got up from bed :(
Was this a start of DEILD?
I did have a DEILD, one from a normal dream with alarm following this tutorial. Also LD-LD, but those were more seamless.
Waking up, I tried to keep my mind dreamy, in the empty within - how to say that? I don't know.
I didn't concentrate on my previous dream - I looked in the blackness of my closed eye vision.
After a second or two - an aperture in the shape of an oval - maybe 1.5 m width and 0.5 m hight - appeared in the black.
And I could look through it into a 3D dream.
What was interesting - I was laying face down in my bed - and this view corresponded perfectly - as if I would be hovering 40 cm above ground and looking down on picturesque pebbles of a way.
In some manner too fast to analyse - I found myself sitting on a bench more or less instantaneously - after maybe a second of peeking in my dream.
I have no idea, if I moved, but I also cannot say, if I was over the time of transition staying in SP (REM-Atonia) or not.
You'll know it, if you consciously move against it - stupid thing to do.
So - there is definitively no need to somehow consciously feel this phenomenon, if it's even there, while you are conscious of your body.
No HI/HH, either, like vibrations or visuals/audio at all.
If some of that is typical or not - good question - but that's how it went for me.
I'll try to motivate my lazy self and lame excuse for an LDer to take some ld-god action pronto - also trying that for a WBTB with a serious WILD effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto
It's written. This is part of the technique and you must resist this urge no matter what. That's what he wrote.
I'm looking forward to this technique, but i'm still afraid of SP even though i never experienced it. Damn it what a waste!
Don't worry, the SP can be fascinating once you wish to explore it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAssassin56
He's right about the part on resisting the urge to move. It's not the only way, or necessarily the easiest but it's good when you persevere. The only problem is it can get so uncomfortable you just don't have any will power left, but usually at this stage your attempt has already failed and you would proceed with trying WILD or just falling asleep. The nice part about DEILD is that the hardest part should be getting the wakingup right, after this entering the dream shouldn't be too difficult.
Give it your best shot :)
Aye, but there's the rub. I very very rarely having these wake-up-know-I-was-dreaming-remain-still-and-quickly-drift-back-to-sleep perfect moments. Waking from LDs almost all the time is due to excitement so I'm usually *very* awake and aware, I have yet to fall back into an LD from an LD. My LDs are also frequently at the end of the last sleep cycle of the day so my body/brain is just "done" with dreaming and can't make it back in. And when I wake from NDs, I'm usually so "out of it" that it takes a while to realize I had been dreaming at all, and by then I've usually already rolled over or my hands are numb or I have to use the bathroom so badly that I must move.Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
It seems the alarm (from any source) DEILDs are the most likely to succeed since stumbling on those perfect moments through the night randomly seem so rare. Any hints in developing that "wake up with stillness and dream memory" ability would be greatly appreciated!
Actually that's something I struggle with myself too. I just don't like the whole alarm clock method, I don't think it can really wake you up exactly right,Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
My mantra's have worked on and off, seemingly randomly and never last that long. When it goes right though what happens i notice myself waking up before I have opened my eyes. The mantra I use most often is "I will notice as I'm waking up". I don't what it is about it, but it seems to wake me up through the night and catch the zone just right without forcing it.
More importantly, I actually use a method that another DV'er showed me. Instead of staying completely still you just try sleep but with the intention of waking up again right before you enter the dream. Basically you trick your body into thinking your falling asleep without having to try maintain a certain level of consciousness, then right at the last moment you kinda get shocked in and you can enter the dream lucidly.
I'm almost certain this is the absolute best way to do it, with the right intention it can just come and strike up straight away. The hard part is obviously maintaining the willpower to spend a solid month repeating a mantra before you start seeing any tangible results.
I just acquired a REMee and this is one of the uses (DEILD alarm) I intend for it. The trick is to find the right mix of brightness, pattern length and style, and delay. Hopefully it will "wake me up right", or even better, lead me to lucidity directly if not yet lucid if I'm already dreaming!Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
Ya if that works it could be a very potent mix. Though a REMee still stakes a lot of willpower to use as well. Kepp us notified on the REMee btw, hopefully it produces some good results.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
I'll give it a shotQuote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
Will do. I'm recording my experiences in my "remee reconsidered" thread in lucid aids.Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
I realized this morning I saw some strange lighting effects last night at one point in a dream (a glass-walled [dream sign] "weather sauna" with lightning, strong winds and rain inside), may have been remee!
If I wake around 5-6 hours I switch it to nap mode. If I'm slow falling asleep I have to reset it to nap mode so it doesn't wake me up just as I'm falling asleep.
I expect a long tuning time, that's OK. Fricking thing is less comfortable and hotter than my regular sleep mask, though. Woke up with my forehead all sweaty at one point.
Hi,
DutchRaptor i've saw your post in one of the threads:
And it made me quite curious, could you elaborate more on that if it's possible :-PQuote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
I myself today slept quite long and when i woke up after like 8 - 10 hours maybe, i ain't sure
I remained motionless and within seconds wild transition effects appeared like scene starting to appear on my eyes etc. :yeah
I used to try deild technique times ago with either alarms or natural awakenings under around 8 hours of sleep
And barely had any luck with them :cheeky:
Yet with lots of sleep it worked nicely today.
Unfortunely it resulted in me having headache due to oversleeping.
So i'm wondering kinda if there's any more hints that you could give about deilding your way or why does 9+ hours sleep with deild works effectivly :yeah
I myself assume that there's barely or no any nrem gaps between rem phase after so much sleep
- Thanks
Hmm tips, well most of the stuff I've formulated is already within this post. I can't really give you actual times because you have to figure that out for yourself.
The 9+ hour recommendation is because in total you will probably only get 7-8 hours of sleep considering all the dream journaling, and on top of that the sleep may not even be of great quality. Another problem with this is that the lighting in your room must not be too bright or it will interfere with how long you can sleep, though it will help you have a good awakening if you do want to finish up.
Deild is a technique shrouded in mystery, every aspect of it is a balancing act and is completely different for everyone. You have to choose what you will do to get into the DEILD, what time, how often, alarm or mantra, deild every awakenening or set different tasks, which mantra to use....etc
As I mentioned it's not for the faint of heart, however based on your own account it might be an idea to experiment with DEILD at the later hours of sleep. I merely choose 4 hours because I'm not that good at controlling my focus, and by waking early I can ensure that I will fall asleep, the downside being less REM and higher likelihood of waking up.
If you can pull off a later awakening you might be on to a much easier entry.
Last tip, there's barely any space for failure, you have to be persistent and ensure you say your mantra's each day and that you utilize every awakening.
I haven't seriously done lucid dreaming in quite a while. For the past year or so, I've done a handful of WILDs and DEILDs, but my techniques have been haphazard and I can't take full credit for the times that it worked (luck played a big role too). I've even had a couple of semi-lucid DILDs, but anyone who knows me knows that those were not intentional at all ;)
But now I want to try to make a more serious attempt at it. This morning I tried to DEILD, and I was frustrated to find that I had a very difficult time keeping focus in that brief awakening. I've always thought of myself as an insomniac, so it was odd to experience the sensation of falling into unconsciousness too quickly. It was quite interesting, really. I was clearly in hypnagogia of some sort, as I was hearing voices in my head. But the voices spoke gibberish and were uncannily compelling, like I had no choice but to listen to them and get drawn into unconsciousness (or more accurately, non-lucid REM stuff). However, I didn't experience any noticeable paralysis, which jives with what is written in the OP.
So anyways, I'm going to keep at it and see if I can will myself to maintain some presence of mind during the brief wakenings. I think that if I do it for several days in a row, it should get easier. At least I can catch myself waking quick enough.
Sounds good :)
Getting the waking part out of the way is half the battle.
Well, so far I've had two small successes: I got to vibrations once, and just this morning I managed to bypass the vibrations altogether and get directly into a dream. Unfortunately, it was such a quick transition that I got excited and woke up :\
I've been trying to make DEILD a habit lately because it seems to have so much potential. I can get myself to wake up without moving frequently but I have a hard time doing anything at that point. I lie there trying to think about my last dream or visualize a different one but nothing happens. Do you think I'm just waking up at a bad point in the sleep cycle to succeed in this or can it usually take 5+ minutes for anything to happen? Usually even though I haven't moved yet (or haven't moved much yet) I still feel like I'm completely awake and like my body doesn't want to go right back to sleep. Is there something I'm missing here?
Yeah this approach does seem like it has so much potential, but then you realize, in order for it to work the timing has to be just about perfect: you must be woken up enough by the alarm to realize you're awake, but not so much that you wake up *too* much. A combination of the alarm, your response to it, and where you are in your sleep schedule. And practice of course. So keep trying it and experiment with times. I think in order for this to work your sleep schedule must be very very steady so that you can be sure that at your alarm time you're definitely in your long REM phases.
I use mantra + natural awakenings for this. I wake up so much naturally that I don't need an alarm. For example I just woke up 4 times between going to bed and finally getting up for my WBTB, and I didn't even use a mantra for that lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
I figured natural awakenings would be the best timing but maybe it's the worst, or more likely it's probably random. Does anybody happen to know from experience just how long you can continue a DEILD attempt and still be successful with it? Sometimes I've laid still for 15 minutes with no results. Guess if you have bad timing you have to wait for REM to come back around or can you DEILD into NREM?
Conventional wisdom is that the window of opportunity for a DEILD is 1-2 minutes, any more than that and you're into full-on WILD territory. You need to have a very drowsy quiet mindset, and very lightly consider either the dream you just left (preferred) or a new scene, and just drift off while thinking about that scene, perhaps a light mantra.
Though I have managed to include an occasional dash to the bathroom during DEILD, Fryingman's pretty much got the timing pegged. DEILD is a process that should seem to take no time at all -- you feel yourself waking up, you hang on to your last dream (or anticipate your next one), and you cognitively "turn around" just as you are waking and head back to sleep, dream and lucidity still in hand.* As FryingMan said, if you're lying there for 15 minutes, it's time to consider this a WBTB and go into WILD mode.
But that's not why I posted:
My vote is always with natural awakenings; especially if you can learn to spot them just before they occur. Most alarms have a nasty habit of triggering your reticular system and waking you up too much to successfully DEILD/WILD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangetsu
Yes, you can DEILD into NREM; I've done it many times. If you are not interested in doing so, it is best to DEILD after several hours' sleep, when your REM periods are very close together. So, if you are DEILDing after, say, 6 hours of sleep, you likely will go straight back to REM, or experience a very brief "pause" of NREM at worst -- and of course you can pass the time of that pause by forming your next dream or carefully reviewing your memory of your last dream, if you wish to continue it... or just enjoy floating for a few seconds in peaceful emptiness -- that's what I do!
*Advanced apologies if this conflicts with your technique, Dutchraptor; sometimes I forget where I'm posting! :sageous:
So, update: I think I'm coming to realize that although DEILD seems like it has the most potential (as others have said), it's so bloody difficult to pull off. Over the past week or so, I've been trying to DEILD, but it often just results in me WILDing instead and getting far better results :\
My problems are: 1) I remember to DEILD too late after waking up, and 2) I get the timing right, but the emotional content of the dream is still so powerful that I don't want to go back in (I guess I don't have very many happy dreams).
I do use something like DEILD to chain together lucid dreams, and for that purpose it's extremely useful and gets around the above issues. But for getting into a lucid for the first time, I still can't find anything better than the classic WBTB+WILD. As they say, It Just Works.
That's interesting. The way you describe catching yourself waking up sounds different from what I experience. I don't know if I'm gaining my awareness too late to turn back towards the dream or if my mind just skips the peaceful stage and starts up like normal. There always does seem to be a small gap between when my dream ends and when I regain awareness, so maybe I'm just not catching the awakening soon enough? Pretty much all my attempts are from non-lucids so I don't really have the opportunity to hold on to my awareness like I would from a LD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Of course my mind is never really quiet even coming off of a dream. I tend to analyze everything as soon as I gain consciousness again. One time I felt my body becoming paralyzed so I slowly counted to 60 and then did a RC. That way I distracted my conscious mind enough to get it out of the way of my sleep process I suppose. Anyway that worked so I may try to do the same thing in my DEILD attempts and see what happens.
^^ I'm the same way, Zangetsu, unless I'm waking from a lucid or a near lucid, there's always a discontinuity between finishing a dream and finding myself awake. I understand this can be trained but it's not something I've put much time into.
cmind: that's great! I have yet to pull of a WILD, I'm a 100% DILD guy so far. Any hints in your WILD success? Do you return to sleep quickly or slowly after WBTB?
Yes, you're probably not sensing that you are waking up, because that is difficult to probably impossible to do if you're not lucid. If you do not know you are dreaming, then you don't even remember that you are sleep, so how could you possibly recognize that you are waking up? This is why DEILD works much better when done as you are emerging from a LD, BTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangetsu
If you are coming out of a NLD, the best you can do is catch the moment just before you open your eyes and immediately (without any analysis or real thought, even) settle yourself into your DEILD. Catching that moment, and disciplining your mind to do the DEILD and not think about other things (or complex thoughts of any kind), will come, as so many things do, with time and practice.
That's good plan. Your mind must be quiet for a DIELD to work, especially if coming out of a NLD. So any way you can learn to set your busy waking mind aside for a minute or two will be most helpful for a successful DEILD.Quote:
Of course my mind is never really quiet even coming off of a dream. I tend to analyze everything as soon as I gain consciousness again. One time I felt my body becoming paralyzed so I slowly counted to 60 and then did a RC. That way I distracted my conscious mind enough to get it out of the way of my sleep process I suppose. Anyway that worked so I may try to do the same thing in my DEILD attempts and see what happens.
I'll tell you what I currently do. My technique is constantly changing over the years as my brain changes. I used to have problems with insomnia, so I needed to keep my WBTB very short, but nowadays insomnia has gotten a bit better, so I can afford a longer WBTB. What is always true is the longer your WBTB, the better your chances of getting in a lucid dream, assuming you can get to sleep. If you make the WBTB too long, you won't be able to fall asleep and then you might as well make breakfast.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
So here's what I do:
1) I wake up naturally about one to two hours before my normal wake up time. I then usually get out of bed and go to the washroom or something, as this wakes me up enough to prevent me from instantly falling back asleep (if you fall back asleep right away, it won't work*!).
2) After waking myself up, I go back to bed. By this time I'm already awake enough that I won't be falling asleep for at least 20 minutes (sometimes much longer)
3) I use this time to set my intention to perform a WILD. You could also call this a bit of "MILD". I don't use mantras or anything like that; I just quietly remind myself what I'm about to do and get myself focused. In some guides, this is also known as creating a mental anchor.
4) The hard part. I empty my mind of all audible thoughts and daydreams. Audible thoughts are thoughts that you can "hear" as your voice speaking inside your head. Daydreams are visual images and fantasies that you consciously control. Both of these things must stop. Your mind must become quiet and empty.
5) The really hard part. Even though you've put a stop to all intentional thoughts, you will still have random thoughts and images that just come out of nowhere. You must allow these to happen, but do not engage with them. You are a passive observer, watching these random thoughts as they come and go. Patience is important here. If you start to hear voices, music, or buzzing sounds, you're getting close.
6) After a few minutes, the random thoughts become more compelling, and you may start to feel vibrations, LOUD buzzing sounds, or strong visual hallucinations.
7) Once you think you're close enough (which you can only judge from lots of practice), try to enter a dream. This is the easy part. Everyone has their own technique. Mine is to imagine my arms reaching out and touching things. Other people have different queues.
8) If at any point the dream destabilizes, I stay calm and don't move. This will quickly return me to step 6.
A key thing to note: between steps 1 and 5, you don't have to be perfectly still. You can toss and turn all you want, just don't think about it. If you get an itch, scratch it and forget it. Etc.
Also, 99% of all failed attempts at WILD fail at steps 4 or 5. This is where the magic happens, and it's much easier said than done.
*unless you're trying to DEILD, but that's a different technique
cmind: thank you for posting your approach! I'm quite guilty of engaging in daydreaming of all the awesome dreams I'm going to have in #4, also sometimes playing and replaying the latest song that's been running through my head during the day.
When I make it through #4 to #5, my issue is engaging the images too soon, tending to "perk up" when they occur and trying to "look" at them which makes them vanish.
If I make it through to #6, I will note the body sensations, I'm getting better at not getting excited by them, the temptation is thinking "HERE WE GO!" and then the sensations subside and (I think?) I'm just awake again back to #4, argh!
In the handful (or less) of times where I *feel* like I'm made it to #7, I have *never* had a visual dream waiting for me.....I eventually end up thinking, "after all that work, where's the dream!?"....and seem to be back to #4 again....ARGH!
Well, I guess it will take a few (hundred?) more attempts....will keep trying! Ah, dreaming is awesome, nighttime is so exciting as a LDer!
edit: I've started mindfulness meditation recently, hopefully getting that extra "quiet mind/concentration" practice in will help with WILDs.
FryingMan, you already have the basics down, so it's just a matter of practice! A few dozen good attempts, I would say.
Thanks for all the posts, interesting stuff. Gotta say you're all on the right track.
One clarification though, when I wake up naturally I can spot it while the current dream is ending. It's a skill I learned through mantra's but i've pretty much forgotten it now. It helps in bringing back the feeling of the dream and having some time to prepare before DEILD, even if it's only 2 or 3 seconds.
Don't have much else to say other than keep trying and experimenting. You just can get good at a technique like this in a conventional timeframe. My own observation is that it can take months of dedication to get it spot on. Not to mention that simple changes in your environment and lifestyle can effect your timing and process. It doesn't really pay off unless you are good, and to be good takes a lot of time. My favourite motto "DEILD is not for the faint of heart".
The visualization part isn't too bad, for me, since I visualize action scenes when I'm listening to music. :D
I'm going to start with this method tonight, and stick to it till I've 'mastered' it.
I will use auto-suggestion to wake up naturally, I'll post my progress here :).
