Thread: Dutchraptor's Deild Guide - Become an Ld god.

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

Don't worry, the SP can be fascinating once you wish to explore it.

He's right about the part on resisting the urge to move. It's not the only way, or necessarily the easiest but it's good when you persevere. The only problem is it can get so uncomfortable you just don't have any will power left, but usually at this stage your attempt has already failed and you would proceed with trying WILD or just falling asleep. The nice part about DEILD is that the hardest part should be getting the wakingup right, after this entering the dream shouldn't be too difficult.

Give it your best shot

I'll give it a shot

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

Ya if that works it could be a very potent mix. Though a REMee still stakes a lot of willpower to use as well. Kepp us notified on the REMee btw, hopefully it produces some good results.

Will do. I'm recording my experiences in my "remee reconsidered" thread in lucid aids.

I realized this morning I saw some strange lighting effects last night at one point in a dream (a glass-walled [dream sign] "weather sauna" with lightning, strong winds and rain inside), may have been remee!

If I wake around 5-6 hours I switch it to nap mode. If I'm slow falling asleep I have to reset it to nap mode so it doesn't wake me up just as I'm falling asleep.

I expect a long tuning time, that's OK. Fricking thing is less comfortable and hotter than my regular sleep mask, though. Woke up with my forehead all sweaty at one point.

Hi,

DutchRaptor i've saw your post in one of the threads:

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

This depends on whether you are taking about using DEILD as a primary technique, or to extend a current dream. In the case of the latter I would choose DEILD since lucids are easy enough to remember.
In case of the former however;
To successfully DEILD you will need a large period of time to sleep. 9+ hours is my own standard for DEILDing, any less your probably wasting your time. So it's not a case of one or the other, it's neither or both.
The problem is that just relying on a mantra for DEILDing is a challenge only reserved for those with an unbending will. On the other end of the spectrum, alarms will usually ruin the delicate waking required to DEILD.
So your best bet is waking up multiple times in the night and dedicating each one to a task. The first awakening may be to dream journal and then say mantras, the next alarm may be for the actual DEILD and the last may be an alarm right before your usual bed time to redo those mantra's again.
This way you will gain the benefits of dream journaling twice, saying your mantra's three times and even waking up 1+ times to try DEILD. As you may suspect this takes up a lot of sleep and so you must sleep longer than usual and your overall sleep will deteriorate.
DEILD is not for the faint of heart!

And it made me quite curious, could you elaborate more on that if it's possible
I myself today slept quite long and when i woke up after like 8 - 10 hours maybe, i ain't sure
I remained motionless and within seconds wild transition effects appeared like scene starting to appear on my eyes etc.
I used to try deild technique times ago with either alarms or natural awakenings under around 8 hours of sleep
And barely had any luck with them

Yet with lots of sleep it worked nicely today.
Unfortunely it resulted in me having headache due to oversleeping.

So i'm wondering kinda if there's any more hints that you could give about deilding your way or why does 9+ hours sleep with deild works effectivly
I myself assume that there's barely or no any nrem gaps between rem phase after so much sleep
- Thanks

Hmm tips, well most of the stuff I've formulated is already within this post. I can't really give you actual times because you have to figure that out for yourself.

The 9+ hour recommendation is because in total you will probably only get 7-8 hours of sleep considering all the dream journaling, and on top of that the sleep may not even be of great quality. Another problem with this is that the lighting in your room must not be too bright or it will interfere with how long you can sleep, though it will help you have a good awakening if you do want to finish up.

Deild is a technique shrouded in mystery, every aspect of it is a balancing act and is completely different for everyone. You have to choose what you will do to get into the DEILD, what time, how often, alarm or mantra, deild every awakenening or set different tasks, which mantra to use....etc
As I mentioned it's not for the faint of heart, however based on your own account it might be an idea to experiment with DEILD at the later hours of sleep. I merely choose 4 hours because I'm not that good at controlling my focus, and by waking early I can ensure that I will fall asleep, the downside being less REM and higher likelihood of waking up.
If you can pull off a later awakening you might be on to a much easier entry.

Last tip, there's barely any space for failure, you have to be persistent and ensure you say your mantra's each day and that you utilize every awakening.

I haven't seriously done lucid dreaming in quite a while. For the past year or so, I've done a handful of WILDs and DEILDs, but my techniques have been haphazard and I can't take full credit for the times that it worked (luck played a big role too). I've even had a couple of semi-lucid DILDs, but anyone who knows me knows that those were not intentional at all

But now I want to try to make a more serious attempt at it. This morning I tried to DEILD, and I was frustrated to find that I had a very difficult time keeping focus in that brief awakening. I've always thought of myself as an insomniac, so it was odd to experience the sensation of falling into unconsciousness too quickly. It was quite interesting, really. I was clearly in hypnagogia of some sort, as I was hearing voices in my head. But the voices spoke gibberish and were uncannily compelling, like I had no choice but to listen to them and get drawn into unconsciousness (or more accurately, non-lucid REM stuff). However, I didn't experience any noticeable paralysis, which jives with what is written in the OP.

So anyways, I'm going to keep at it and see if I can will myself to maintain some presence of mind during the brief wakenings. I think that if I do it for several days in a row, it should get easier. At least I can catch myself waking quick enough.

Sounds good
Getting the waking part out of the way is half the battle.

Well, so far I've had two small successes: I got to vibrations once, and just this morning I managed to bypass the vibrations altogether and get directly into a dream. Unfortunately, it was such a quick transition that I got excited and woke up :\

I've been trying to make DEILD a habit lately because it seems to have so much potential. I can get myself to wake up without moving frequently but I have a hard time doing anything at that point. I lie there trying to think about my last dream or visualize a different one but nothing happens. Do you think I'm just waking up at a bad point in the sleep cycle to succeed in this or can it usually take 5+ minutes for anything to happen? Usually even though I haven't moved yet (or haven't moved much yet) I still feel like I'm completely awake and like my body doesn't want to go right back to sleep. Is there something I'm missing here?

Yeah this approach does seem like it has so much potential, but then you realize, in order for it to work the timing has to be just about perfect: you must be woken up enough by the alarm to realize you're awake, but not so much that you wake up *too* much. A combination of the alarm, your response to it, and where you are in your sleep schedule. And practice of course. So keep trying it and experiment with times. I think in order for this to work your sleep schedule must be very very steady so that you can be sure that at your alarm time you're definitely in your long REM phases.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Yeah this approach does seem like it has so much potential, but then you realize, in order for it to work the timing has to be just about perfect: you must be woken up enough by the alarm to realize you're awake, but not so much that you wake up *too* much. A combination of the alarm, your response to it, and where you are in your sleep schedule. And practice of course. So keep trying it and experiment with times. I think in order for this to work your sleep schedule must be very very steady so that you can be sure that at your alarm time you're definitely in your long REM phases.

I use mantra + natural awakenings for this. I wake up so much naturally that I don't need an alarm. For example I just woke up 4 times between going to bed and finally getting up for my WBTB, and I didn't even use a mantra for that lol.

I figured natural awakenings would be the best timing but maybe it's the worst, or more likely it's probably random. Does anybody happen to know from experience just how long you can continue a DEILD attempt and still be successful with it? Sometimes I've laid still for 15 minutes with no results. Guess if you have bad timing you have to wait for REM to come back around or can you DEILD into NREM?

Conventional wisdom is that the window of opportunity for a DEILD is 1-2 minutes, any more than that and you're into full-on WILD territory. You need to have a very drowsy quiet mindset, and very lightly consider either the dream you just left (preferred) or a new scene, and just drift off while thinking about that scene, perhaps a light mantra.

Though I have managed to include an occasional dash to the bathroom during DEILD, Fryingman's pretty much got the timing pegged. DEILD is a process that should seem to take no time at all -- you feel yourself waking up, you hang on to your last dream (or anticipate your next one), and you cognitively "turn around" just as you are waking and head back to sleep, dream and lucidity still in hand.* As FryingMan said, if you're lying there for 15 minutes, it's time to consider this a WBTB and go into WILD mode.

But that's not why I posted:

Originally Posted by Zangetsu

I figured natural awakenings would be the best timing but maybe it's the worst, or more likely it's probably random. Does anybody happen to know from experience just how long you can continue a DEILD attempt and still be successful with it? Sometimes I've laid still for 15 minutes with no results. Guess if you have bad timing you have to wait for REM to come back around or can you DEILD into NREM?

My vote is always with natural awakenings; especially if you can learn to spot them just before they occur. Most alarms have a nasty habit of triggering your reticular system and waking you up too much to successfully DEILD/WILD.

Yes, you can DEILD into NREM; I've done it many times. If you are not interested in doing so, it is best to DEILD after several hours' sleep, when your REM periods are very close together. So, if you are DEILDing after, say, 6 hours of sleep, you likely will go straight back to REM, or experience a very brief "pause" of NREM at worst -- and of course you can pass the time of that pause by forming your next dream or carefully reviewing your memory of your last dream, if you wish to continue it... or just enjoy floating for a few seconds in peaceful emptiness -- that's what I do!


*Advanced apologies if this conflicts with your technique, Dutchraptor; sometimes I forget where I'm posting!

So, update: I think I'm coming to realize that although DEILD seems like it has the most potential (as others have said), it's so bloody difficult to pull off. Over the past week or so, I've been trying to DEILD, but it often just results in me WILDing instead and getting far better results :\

My problems are: 1) I remember to DEILD too late after waking up, and 2) I get the timing right, but the emotional content of the dream is still so powerful that I don't want to go back in (I guess I don't have very many happy dreams).

I do use something like DEILD to chain together lucid dreams, and for that purpose it's extremely useful and gets around the above issues. But for getting into a lucid for the first time, I still can't find anything better than the classic WBTB+WILD. As they say, It Just Works.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Though I have managed to include a dash to the bathroom during DEILD, Fryingman's pretty much got the timing pegged. DEILD is a process that should seem to take no time at all -- you feel yourself waking up, you hang on to your last dream (or anticipate your next one), and you cognitively "turn around" just as you are waking and head back to sleep, dream and lucidity still in hand.* As FryingMan said, if you're lying there for 15 minutes, it's time to consider this a WBTB and go into WILD mode.

That's interesting. The way you describe catching yourself waking up sounds different from what I experience. I don't know if I'm gaining my awareness too late to turn back towards the dream or if my mind just skips the peaceful stage and starts up like normal. There always does seem to be a small gap between when my dream ends and when I regain awareness, so maybe I'm just not catching the awakening soon enough? Pretty much all my attempts are from non-lucids so I don't really have the opportunity to hold on to my awareness like I would from a LD.

Of course my mind is never really quiet even coming off of a dream. I tend to analyze everything as soon as I gain consciousness again. One time I felt my body becoming paralyzed so I slowly counted to 60 and then did a RC. That way I distracted my conscious mind enough to get it out of the way of my sleep process I suppose. Anyway that worked so I may try to do the same thing in my DEILD attempts and see what happens.

^^ I'm the same way, Zangetsu, unless I'm waking from a lucid or a near lucid, there's always a discontinuity between finishing a dream and finding myself awake. I understand this can be trained but it's not something I've put much time into.

cmind: that's great! I have yet to pull of a WILD, I'm a 100% DILD guy so far. Any hints in your WILD success? Do you return to sleep quickly or slowly after WBTB?

Originally Posted by Zangetsu

That's interesting. The way you describe catching yourself waking up sounds different from what I experience. I don't know if I'm gaining my awareness too late to turn back towards the dream or if my mind just skips the peaceful stage and starts up like normal. There always does seem to be a small gap between when my dream ends and when I regain awareness, so maybe I'm just not catching the awakening soon enough? Pretty much all my attempts are from non-lucids so I don't really have the opportunity to hold on to my awareness like I would from a LD.

Yes, you're probably not sensing that you are waking up, because that is difficult to probably impossible to do if you're not lucid. If you do not know you are dreaming, then you don't even remember that you are sleep, so how could you possibly recognize that you are waking up? This is why DEILD works much better when done as you are emerging from a LD, BTW.

If you are coming out of a NLD, the best you can do is catch the moment just before you open your eyes and immediately (without any analysis or real thought, even) settle yourself into your DEILD. Catching that moment, and disciplining your mind to do the DEILD and not think about other things (or complex thoughts of any kind), will come, as so many things do, with time and practice.

Of course my mind is never really quiet even coming off of a dream. I tend to analyze everything as soon as I gain consciousness again. One time I felt my body becoming paralyzed so I slowly counted to 60 and then did a RC. That way I distracted my conscious mind enough to get it out of the way of my sleep process I suppose. Anyway that worked so I may try to do the same thing in my DEILD attempts and see what happens.

That's good plan. Your mind must be quiet for a DIELD to work, especially if coming out of a NLD. So any way you can learn to set your busy waking mind aside for a minute or two will be most helpful for a successful DEILD.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

cmind: that's great! I have yet to pull of a WILD, I'm a 100% DILD guy so far. Any hints in your WILD success? Do you return to sleep quickly or slowly after WBTB?

I'll tell you what I currently do. My technique is constantly changing over the years as my brain changes. I used to have problems with insomnia, so I needed to keep my WBTB very short, but nowadays insomnia has gotten a bit better, so I can afford a longer WBTB. What is always true is the longer your WBTB, the better your chances of getting in a lucid dream, assuming you can get to sleep. If you make the WBTB too long, you won't be able to fall asleep and then you might as well make breakfast.

So here's what I do:

1) I wake up naturally about one to two hours before my normal wake up time. I then usually get out of bed and go to the washroom or something, as this wakes me up enough to prevent me from instantly falling back asleep (if you fall back asleep right away, it won't work*!).

2) After waking myself up, I go back to bed. By this time I'm already awake enough that I won't be falling asleep for at least 20 minutes (sometimes much longer)

3) I use this time to set my intention to perform a WILD. You could also call this a bit of "MILD". I don't use mantras or anything like that; I just quietly remind myself what I'm about to do and get myself focused. In some guides, this is also known as creating a mental anchor.

4) The hard part. I empty my mind of all audible thoughts and daydreams. Audible thoughts are thoughts that you can "hear" as your voice speaking inside your head. Daydreams are visual images and fantasies that you consciously control. Both of these things must stop. Your mind must become quiet and empty.

5) The really hard part. Even though you've put a stop to all intentional thoughts, you will still have random thoughts and images that just come out of nowhere. You must allow these to happen, but do not engage with them. You are a passive observer, watching these random thoughts as they come and go. Patience is important here. If you start to hear voices, music, or buzzing sounds, you're getting close.

6) After a few minutes, the random thoughts become more compelling, and you may start to feel vibrations, LOUD buzzing sounds, or strong visual hallucinations.

7) Once you think you're close enough (which you can only judge from lots of practice), try to enter a dream. This is the easy part. Everyone has their own technique. Mine is to imagine my arms reaching out and touching things. Other people have different queues.

8) If at any point the dream destabilizes, I stay calm and don't move. This will quickly return me to step 6.

A key thing to note: between steps 1 and 5, you don't have to be perfectly still. You can toss and turn all you want, just don't think about it. If you get an itch, scratch it and forget it. Etc.

Also, 99% of all failed attempts at WILD fail at steps 4 or 5. This is where the magic happens, and it's much easier said than done.

*unless you're trying to DEILD, but that's a different technique

cmind: thank you for posting your approach! I'm quite guilty of engaging in daydreaming of all the awesome dreams I'm going to have in #4, also sometimes playing and replaying the latest song that's been running through my head during the day.

When I make it through #4 to #5, my issue is engaging the images too soon, tending to "perk up" when they occur and trying to "look" at them which makes them vanish.

If I make it through to #6, I will note the body sensations, I'm getting better at not getting excited by them, the temptation is thinking "HERE WE GO!" and then the sensations subside and (I think?) I'm just awake again back to #4, argh!

In the handful (or less) of times where I *feel* like I'm made it to #7, I have *never* had a visual dream waiting for me.....I eventually end up thinking, "after all that work, where's the dream!?"....and seem to be back to #4 again....ARGH!

Well, I guess it will take a few (hundred?) more attempts....will keep trying! Ah, dreaming is awesome, nighttime is so exciting as a LDer!

edit: I've started mindfulness meditation recently, hopefully getting that extra "quiet mind/concentration" practice in will help with WILDs.

FryingMan, you already have the basics down, so it's just a matter of practice! A few dozen good attempts, I would say.

Thanks for all the posts, interesting stuff. Gotta say you're all on the right track.

One clarification though, when I wake up naturally I can spot it while the current dream is ending. It's a skill I learned through mantra's but i've pretty much forgotten it now. It helps in bringing back the feeling of the dream and having some time to prepare before DEILD, even if it's only 2 or 3 seconds.

Don't have much else to say other than keep trying and experimenting. You just can get good at a technique like this in a conventional timeframe. My own observation is that it can take months of dedication to get it spot on. Not to mention that simple changes in your environment and lifestyle can effect your timing and process. It doesn't really pay off unless you are good, and to be good takes a lot of time. My favourite motto "DEILD is not for the faint of heart".

The visualization part isn't too bad, for me, since I visualize action scenes when I'm listening to music.

I'm going to start with this method tonight, and stick to it till I've 'mastered' it.
I will use auto-suggestion to wake up naturally, I'll post my progress here .