WILD - Wake Initiated Lucid Dream

It seems to me that there is a progression of 3 stages in regards to WILD and the necessity of SP.

1. (The 'classic' view) SP is an inevitable, and needed, stage in a WILD that acts as 'gateway' to an LD. Reach SP and you'll have an LD, all efforts should be directed towards reaching this state.

2. (Intermediary view) SP is neither necessary nor inevitable, you may experience this phenomenon when you WILD or you may not, aim for the LD when you WILD and don't focus on SP.

3. (The 'radical' view) SP is a myth of the LDing community, most of the phenomena classically assigned to SP since the literature of LaBerge is in fact NREM phenomena experienced through falling asleep consciously. The term sleep paralysis should be reserved for its original clinical usage. The state described is more properly called REM atonia, and a dreamer will already be dreaming before REM atonia kicks in, dreamers who have a predisposition for isolated sleep paralysis may experience it during a WILD attempt. Guides based on reaching SP are founded upon misinformation.

Perhaps it is not needed to outline these positions, they are all already fairly evident to anyone who has engaged in the SP debate, but this thread has raised the issue that a consensus has not been reached (is a consensus even possible when it comes to such subjective experience?).

The great efforts by dreamguides and other members in WILD threads is going a long way to shake up the omnipresence of SP and as a community we're ahead of the game in even questioning it. :)

So after reading the WILD tutorial yesterday, I think I have become better at falling asleep - thank you for that. Did not succeed in getting lucid, but had some images, and definitely fell asleep. :)

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the use of the term SP that has changed over time. In the beginning the more or less normal paralysis was referred to a SP, there are tons of posts about this SP, and most of the people are still using this term.

Then more recently, there has been an update of definitions, and the then SP is now referred to as REM atonia. And the new SP is referred to as a medical condition. That being said, I think the guides are doing their best to explain to newbies with the recently agreed partial-consensus of the word. At the same time, a lot of us continue to use the term SP. I also prefer to use SP instead of rem Antonia, because the idea of sleep paralysis is easier to associate with what is happening.

Very little can be done about this situation, like I don't think it is possible to read, identify and edit all threads that supposedly incorrectly use SP and change the term to rem Atonia, and force everybody to use the more uncomfortable sounding word. We may be unnecessarily going into a vicious circle here. :boggle:

What I think is much more important is educating people about the role of SP in sleeping and ld, whether it is necessary, should people look for it, be worried about it, etc. And with regards to that, the dream guides team is doing a great job, explaining well and giving the relevant links. :)

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the use of the term SP that has changed over time. In the beginning the more or less normal paralysis was referred to a SP, there are tons of posts about this SP, and most of the people are still using this term.

Then more recently, there has been an update of definitions, and the then SP is now referred to as REM atonia. And the new SP is referred to as a medical condition.

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That's where you're wrong. The definitions never got updated, sleep paralysis was always sleep paralysis. Unfortunately, the LDing community started using the term as a catch-all phrase for all sensations related to falling asleep--not just the paralysis. This poor choice of slang led to widespread confusion and a belief that paralysis was a necessary experience when attempting a WILD, which left more impressionable newbies struggling unnecessarily.

To stretch the point: imagine if a large number of people were referring to "apple trees" as "potato trees". Then a few people come along and point out the ridiculous turn of phrase, citing cases where elementary school student are getting held back in school due to the confusion. The powers-that-be recognize the problem and immediately go to work trying to fix it--for the good of the children. Unfortunately, some folks still take to using the term "potato trees" because--they argue--"apple trees is too awkward to say/type, and there's no point trying to retcon the mistake 'cause people have been using it for so long, so I might as well keep using it 'cause you can't make me stop."

Think of the children, NyxCC...think of the children...


Aside: Radical enough for you Ctharlhie? XP

^^ What he said.

So Mzzkc, I really fail to see the point you are trying to make. :uhm: Dream guides do the best they could to dispel confusion and make it easy for newbies to understand how SP, apple or potato trees are related to WILD. DV is a large archive full of diverse opinions, so everybody is free to browse threads and form an opinion about what is written there, then they can always post a new thread and ask questions.

Should we have a vote on which term to use and have a strict checklist of symptoms related to SP, apple trees or potatos, and assign a rating of correctness every time the term is used? Maybe we should appoint you as a SP moderator so that you can go over about 2 million posts and check for the accuracy of the term used.

I really hope we are not turning this into another troll thread, whereby it becomes quite unclear what we are actually arguing about.

To avoid this happening I would suggest clearly indentifying any issues relating to SP and proposing viable ways to deal with them. Because so far, I have seen that everything that could have been done in both the WILD tutorial as well as when welcoming newbies has been done. So I don't think there are elementary students that are been held in school because some of the teachers are incompetent.

Also, forget not that all of us are children in a way, because learning is a life time process. ;)

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

So Mzzkc, I really fail to see the point you are trying to make. :uhm:

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That's too bad, as my point was rather brilliantly executed. I guess metaphors are too high-brow for forums nowadays?

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Should we have a vote on which term to use and have a strict checklist of symptoms related to SP, apple trees or potatos, and assign a rating of correctness every time the term is used? Maybe we should appoint you as a SP moderator so that you can go over about 2 million posts and check for the accuracy of the term used.

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One: DV isn't a democracy.
Two: The checklist for symptoms already exists in medical literature.
Three: Lawl, no thanks, I'm good here on the sidelines--dissenting when it's needed.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

I really hope we are not turning this into another troll thread, whereby it becomes quite unclear what we are actually arguing about.

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Feed me, Seymour.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

To avoid this happening I would suggest clearly indentifying any issues relating to SP and proposing viable ways to deal with them. Because so far, I have seen that everything that could have been done in both the WILD tutorial as well as when welcoming newbies has been done.

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Ooohh! I know! Pick me! Pick me!

Maybe...stop using the term "SP" to refer to something that isn't sleep paralysis? Golly, that might just do it, if everyone got on-board.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Also, forget not that all of us are children in a way, because learning is a life time process. ;)

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Yeah, too high-brow...I might spell it out later, but that sorta defeats the point.

Disclaimer: I think NyxCC is a swell person. The above post was a critique on his and/or her ideas, not character.

Since I like playing devil's advocate: how long would it take for a term to become correct through common usage? Language evolves, and sometimes people use the wrong term, but if it becomes culturally accepted, after a long time of common usage, perhaps it is not incorrect any more?

My problem with using the term sleep paralysis is not whether it is or ever was the right term - I could not care less about using the term "potato tree" as long as everyone in the community understood me, and there were no negative connotations so it was just semantics. The trouble is that with sleep paralysis newbies have negative connotations, and as a result they are incorrectly scared of WILD.

It's not like calling apple trees potato trees, it's more like calling "diving" into the water "drowning", and then you get all these people saying that they are scared of learning how to use a diving board at a swimming pool because they heard that most people drown when they jump off.

Mzzkc, unfortunately even diagnosis manuals evolve over time, and it may become very hard to ascertain who feels what exactly and when. Sensations related to falling asleep can be very subjective which adds more to the confusion.

I personally don't mind using any terms you guys deem correct on DV. Not very sure about your statement that DV is not a democracy, it seems everyone is free to express their opinion and the knowledge cumulates but sometimes gets a bit mixed up.

That thing about children was not meant to be high-brow. What I was saying is that we are all constantly learning and the advice any DV member gives is likely to evolve over time as one gets more experience and of course as science progresses. :)

^^^ Very nice point here.^^^


Ok, well we have all filled up the nice discussion thread with dozens of posts on a topic not related to 'this' tutorial. For the sake of leaving the question section uncluttered I would suggest the currrent topic does not need furture debate here.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Mzzkc, unfortunately even diagnosis manuals evolve over time, and it may become very hard to ascertain who feels what exactly and when. Sensations related to falling asleep can be very subjective which adds more to the confusion.

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Except all those sensations are clearly delineated and associated with certain phases of sleep--even when those changes happen. The most recent example of this was the shift to N1-N3 sleep, wherein Phase 3 and Phase 4 sensations were lumped into N3 sleep. Still, the sensations experienced during NREM sleep vary enough from REM atonia that any knowledgeable person could easily differentiate between the two.

My point here--since examples don't seem to be enough to get it across--ignorance to facts is not an excuse to uphold ignorance.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

I personally don't mind using any terms you guys deem correct on DV. Not very sure about your statement that DV is not a democracy, it seems everyone is free to express their opinion and the knowledge cumulates but sometimes gets a bit mixed up.

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If DV were a democracy, everyone would have a direct say in everything that goes on here. Really, DV is much more like an oligarchy--which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

That thing about children was not meant to be high-brow. What I was saying is that we are all constantly learning and the advice any DV member gives is likely to evolve over time as one gets more experience and of course as science progresses. :)

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I know what you were trying to say; you didn't understand my metaphor--otherwise you would have realized the elementary school kids represented newbies and the people perpetrating use of the wrong terminology represented folks like you. Continuing the metaphor, Sageous or sivason might be considered Tenured Professors who advise PhD students and teach undergrads students on the side.

Continuity of thought and self-reference is also too much, I guess.

Edit: sivason posted while I was writing this.

Well, I think that the SP curse has managed to get the best of us once again. :?

Sorry about my contribution to that.

All contributions are welcome. Just don't word them in such a way that makes others look stupid. We're all trying to get answers here. And it's hard with something so personal as lucid dreaming.

The good news is, I see alot of learning happening here. I've learned more about WILDs and all it's possible phases and transitions in the past year than in my whole life before that. I had to keep an open mind to do this. If I hadn't, I might have missed something cool.

Anyway, to all: don't get frustrated with different uses of terminology, or SP prejudice, or schemas. And don't try to make your point more clear by quote/bashing another member. We have to work together to get the correct information out. It has to be done constructively. What can I do to make this right?

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Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

What can I do to make this right?

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:) It is all right. The number of confused members asking SP questions has gone down, the SP thread gives many points of view, and the staff all have a good grasp on the issue. Sounds right to me. :)

Some disagreements will happen in any topic.

Disagreements aren't even a bad thing. To reach an synthesis you need a thesis and antithesis (to be awfully idealist about things). Though sometimes people can be smart alecky about it...




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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Disagreements aren't even a bad thing. To reach an synthesis you need a thesis and antithesis (to be awfully idealist about things). Though sometimes people can be smart alecky about it...

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FTFY

But more seriously, the staff is doing an excellent job. Things are way further along now than they were when I picked up this little crusade a few years back, and it's all thanks to the staff--both present and recent. All of you honestly and truly care about LDing--which is a nice change of pace, methinks.

Cheers!

Well said OB, sivason, Ctharlhie, and Mzzkc. :) Mzzkc, I may have given the impression that I am not on your side for this crusade but I actually am. I don't think I have given any wrongful advice to newbies in the few posts on this issue I have made, so I hope no bad feelings remain. :okbyenow: http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...paralysis.html

I am very grateful to everybody for their tutorials and peer support. This is a great community and I am looking forward to discovering new things about LD-ing and interacting with all of you, even if we sometimes disagree. Dream on! :rockon:

My problem with WILD is I always end up keeping myself awake, or letting myself fall asleep. When counting, I can keep going for hours... If I try to back off focusing a bit I fall asleep. What are some ways around this?

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Originally Posted by rynkrt3

My problem with WILD is I always end up keeping myself awake, or letting myself fall asleep. When counting, I can keep going for hours... If I try to back off focusing a bit I fall asleep. What are some ways around this?

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This sounds like a minor, easily fixable issue. When you wake up for WBTB, stay up only long enough, until you can think clearly. Do a few math problems in your head. Don't wake yourself up too much, or your body will think you are up for a day and will switch to wake up mode.

If counting keeps you up, try a different mantra. Something that doesn't require that much concentration to get it right. Simple sentence like "I'm dreaming" will do the trick. Don't worry if you mess up your mantra, or if you lose your count.

The trick is to fall asleep at the same time, when dream becomes available for you. If you falling asleep too fast, make the mantra more challenging. If you stay too aware for too long, drop the mantra and pick it up again when you get closer to falling asleep.

It will just take a few more tries to get more familiar with the whole balancing game. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by gab

This sounds like a minor, easily fixable issue. When you wake up for WBTB, stay up only long enough, until you can think clearly. Do a few math problems in your head. Don't wake yourself up too much, or your body will think you are up for a day and will switch to wake up mode.

If counting keeps you up, try a different mantra. Something that doesn't require that much concentration to get it right. Simple sentence like "I'm dreaming" will do the trick. Don't worry if you mess up your mantra, or if you lose your count.

The trick is to fall asleep at the same time, when dream becomes available for you. If you falling asleep too fast, make the mantra more challenging. If you stay too aware for too long, drop the mantra and pick it up again when you get closer to falling asleep.

It will just take a few more tries to get more familiar with the whole balancing game. Good luck.

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Thank you for the advice. I will definitely be trying this out. I will most likely post updates in a few days after some attempts. It's interesting seeing the people in this thread say that WILD isn't hard.. The general thought since I joined this site was that everyone said WILD was like crazy hard to do.

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Originally Posted by rynkrt3

It's interesting seeing the people in this thread say that WILD isn't hard.. The general thought since I joined this site was that everyone said WILD was like crazy hard to do.

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That's more a fun thing to say -- or a misunderstanding of WILD from the get-go -- than it is an utterance of truth. Yes, WILD can be hard, especially if attempted without proper mental prep. But so can DILD and MILD.

These "techniques" are simply tools to provide an assist to lucidity. Lucidity itself comes from you, and not from the techniques; remember that, and WILD suddenly gets a lot easier, I think...forget it, and WILD is impossible.

The one time when I succeeded at WILD, it was super easy and that was during my first attempt. All subsequent unsuccessful attempts have made it appear much harder. :)

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Originally Posted by rynkrt3

... It's interesting seeing the people in this thread say that WILD isn't hard.. The general thought since I joined this site was that everyone said WILD was like crazy hard to do.

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I'm gonna borrow this quote from Sageous, because it just hits the nail right on a head.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I think the real difference between DILD and WILD are the people who choose them as shortcuts to LD adventures. The "DILD" folks seem to be people who start out with a real respect for self-awareness, and for the difficulty inherent in carrying it into a dream. So they prepare first: they learn to RC, to look for the odd, maybe practice ADA (not a big fan of that, BTW) and really train their memory because they know that becoming lucid is not easy. [...]

Then there are the WILD bunch:

The other group of newbies are folks who heard about LD'ing, think it's cool, and want to do it NOW. So they browse the tutorials, and see that DILD is cluttered with waking-life activities, reliance on awareness, and seems require much work. Then they check out WILD, and find that with WILD all you have to do is lie down, hold still, wait, and Bam!, you're in! [...]

[...] it's with the nature of the students themselves. They want their LD's now, fundamentals be damned, and WILD seems on paper to be just the right technique. And, of course, succeeding at it turns out to be incredibly hard, if not impossible, because they're not interested in the mental prep. Later, when they finally give up, or their drive and expectation finally deliver them an accidental DILD [...] they "discover" this technique and find it much "easier," because at least with DILD you can bumble into a LD sometimes, and without the wait or much ballyhooed noise that accompanies WILD, no less.

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Thanks for reposting that Gab, it shows the point well; and thanks Sageous for writing it the first time.

I am going to take it from a slightly different angle.

First off,,, WILDing is very hard to do, in the same way riding a bicycle is very hard to do. Take a youth who has never seen a bike, give him no help or training wheels, and it becomes an overly difficult thing to achieve. Even with help, learning to ride can be a chore, full of failed attempts and some fear of falling. Now, after one learns how to ride, the process becomes almost simple. Then you can work on improving and learning skills. Until you achieve your first WILD you can not understand what anyone means saying it is easy enough.

Second off,,, This tutorial is teaching you the easy way to learn WILD. It is not teaching advanced forms of WILD. Yes, there are levels of training even in this. The most important thing is to get you those first lucids, so you can "ride" on your own. What do I mean by levels? The most basic form of WILD (and thus where all should start) is a little bit hit or miss. It involves staying aware in the first few minutes (perhaps 2-3 minutes) of sleep, and getting lucky enough for a dream to form. That is what beginners should try for. However, as you get better you may learn the fine ballancing act to stay aware despite truely falling into honest sleep. That skill is very hard to learn,,, but guess what? It starts right here with this tutorial, and your first sucessful WILD.

Great job everyone! This tutorial takes so much fear and mystery out of the process!

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Originally Posted by gab

I'm gonna borrow this quote from Sageous, because it just hits the nail right on a head.

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In the last part of that quote, saying people don't want to learn the "mental prep" to WILD, what is ment by "mental prep" as it seems very important in sucseeding.