Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

My main question is, can I lie down in my bed and use a WILD FILD or otherwise LD inducing technique while in a regular pattern my brain will go into theta wave instead of REM?

I want to try some techniques but I'd like to know before hand if practicing them will actually have any effect at all...


Does anyone have experience or a theoretical base for the entering or a REM phase (preferably LD) while it does not fit in ones biological rhythm?

Any comments or otherwise constructive information will be greatly appreciated...

- Chris

I don't think that is possible, but if you find a way, please tell us! That would be the holy grail of lucidity! (Except for an instant foolproof WILD that requires no random awakenings)

Hi Chris,

that's a prettty good question that I thought I knew, until it was pointed out to me that we (apparently) seem to dream in other cycles of sleep, not just during REM. The dreams are, however, not easily remembered at all (and probably nowhere near as intense or linear).

So, in my opinion, probably not. HOWEVER....

I would suspect that if you had good training in meditation - the kind which you can control your brainwave frequency pretty moderately, you should be able to have and experience very similar to LDing, if not LDing itself.

Any chance of writing a tutorial on it?

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Originally Posted by Ryuinfinity

I don't think that is possible, but if you find a way, please tell us! That would be the holy grail of lucidity! (Except for an instant foolproof WILD that requires no random awakenings)

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Well, I take that as a chalenge. it is for me thhe goal of my LD practice. DILD is fun, WAILD (WakeAnytimeInducedLD) would be devine.

Ok, lets consider this a project started... I'll use any technique I know ranging from hypnosis to meditation and otherwise... If anyone wishes to join me, tell me and we'll team up.

Lets look for that holy grail for yours...


- Chris

It will be good practice, but don't get frustrated if you can't get the results you are hoping for. It is more like entering a deep trance than entering a lucid dream. In fact, I've always believed the main difference between deep trance meditation and lucid dreaming is the timing.

I agree with Tornado Joe. You can WILD into NREM dreams, but they are nothing like typical lucid dreams. It is a very weird limbo state. In the Tibetan tradition, you train to hold your awareness throughout the entire night. You stay aware as you slip into and out of REM dreams, NREM dreams, and nothingness. You may want to read up on some Tibetan Dream Yoga excercises.

I can always tell when I end up in this place. Everything goes normal during my WILD, then I just end up in a calm void. It feels like I'm stuck, and just can't enter a dream. Sometimes it is accompanied by a weird loss of ego, or loss of localized consciousness. It is an amazing state in its own right, and something that is the main goal of many types of meditation. You could say it is the base of some entire religions.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man :P

All of the claims that NREM sleep is less vivid or about certain things seem to be inaccurate, as the research I've managed to come across all seem to have different ideas- some say that NREM is less vivid, others say just-as-if-not-more vivid, while some say NREM is about daily drudgery while others say NREM is just as fantastical as REM, some say NREM is more 'abstract', while others say it is identical to REM in 'form'... Unless the individual subjects themselves have their own different types of NREM (ex: in John NREM will not be vivid and will be 'realistic', while Jane will have highly vivid and fantastic NREM) what I've essentially taken away from it is that there are no strict rules and that the average dreamer is not going to be able to tell NREM from REM dreams because the experiences, on average, seem to be the same.

Yes, you can dream in NREM.
Yes, you can lucid dream in NREM.
Both of these have evidence supporting them, you can easily find articles on the subject.

You may have trouble WILDing straight into an NREM period. I am not an accomplished WILDer in the slightest, but from the literature I've read as well as the personal accounts in DV, it is POSSIBLE. However, since it is the very beginning of your sleep cycle, you may have trouble doing it and it's probably not recommended for those who are not adept at WILDs. It is possible, though.

Hmm, last night convinced me this is sooo possible. I am not really an adept WILD'er (only succeeded once...), but when I was goin to sleep last night I nearly succeeded in initiating a dream.
I started by lying stil for some time waiting for my body to shut down, as it started to do so I "grabbed" the first piece of imagery that flashed by and started to develop it. After a minute of so it started to get that "dreamy feeling" and I nearly got it tangible enough to step into.

Howevery my body wss becoming a pain in the ass by starting to tinkle like hell (especially my leggs and feet) so snapped out.

I tried again and supprisingly fast got into the same situation, this time I noticed that when I started thinking "hey I'm doing it!" the dream feeling left as a response to my concious interfearence...

Does anyone know the cause of a tickeling feeling all over your leggs when you attempt anything near WILD or WAILD? i don't feel this when I go to regular sleep...

- Chris

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Does anyone know the cause of a tickeling feeling all over your leggs when you attempt anything near WILD or WAILD?

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That should be the numbness caused by the sleep pralysis process I think. It it usually isn't limited to just your legs. In my first SP experience (before I even know what SP was) I was convinced that I was somehow being electricuted in my bed - I had this tingly feeling all over my body and I couldn't move or even scream.

I think it's possible, but it's not possible to know either way because you wouldn't remember it.

It is possible. I know this from experience. It was over in a second but I knew I was dreaming nevertheless. They won't be nearly as vivid and won't be remembered unless you get up every hour or so.

The tingling/tickling feeling from WILDing means your body is shutting down. Don't move and you are almost there, for me at least. Oh I noticed you said before you went to bed. Good job not many can pull that off :)

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Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

That should be the numbness caused by the sleep pralysis process I think. It it usually isn't limited to just your legs. In my first SP experience (before I even know what SP was) I was convinced that I was somehow being electricuted in my bed - I had this tingly feeling all over my body and I couldn't move or even scream.

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Hmm, the feeling doesn't feel like numbness but I will try to stand it for some minutes tonight. I am able to move however... If SP kicks in, is it an easier base to start an LD or otherwise enter altered mental states? Any experience anyone?

Oh and guys, although I love experimenting on my own, is there anyone who could join me in doing the impossible? It would be fun and educative to have two different perceptions on this experiment...

- Chris

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Originally Posted by ChrisDeemian

Hmm, the feeling doesn't feel like numbness but I will try to stand it for some minutes tonight. I am able to move however... If SP kicks in, is it an easier base to start an LD or otherwise enter altered mental states? Any experience anyone?

Oh and guys, although I love experimenting on my own, is there anyone who could join me in doing the impossible? It would be fun and educative to have two different perceptions on this experiment...

- Chris

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When the feeling you don't like happens try visualizing. That helps take my mind off it. Last time I pictured myself rolling out of my body and I got some crazy HI and started me LD.

I managed to do it once. The funny thing is that was the first lucid dream I ever had since I learned about lucid dreaming. And the chance that it'll work is a lot bigger if you're very sleepy before going to bed.

About the lucid dream I had, it lasted for about 5-10 mins.

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Originally Posted by ChrisD

Hmm, the feeling doesn't feel like numbness but I will try to stand it for some minutes tonight.

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Well mabybe 'numbness' isn't the exact word - but it's sort of like that feeling you get when your leg 'falls asleep' from sitting too long or similar. I'm not a physician or anything, but I imagine the oncoming of SP sensation is the nerves in the body going into the shut down mode.

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I am able to move however... If SP kicks in, is it an easier base to start an LD or otherwise enter altered mental states?

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You're able to move because you probably have not yet completed the process. CAUTION: You will, however, stop the process if you get too excited - rasing your brainwave frequency and becoming alert. If SP kicks in, the answer is 'yes', it IS easier to kick into an LD from this state. This is what a WILD is. It takes practice, but there is a delicate balance between trying to stay alert enough to keep your consciousness from slipping into a non-lucid dream, and staying alert enough to bring your awareness INTO a dream with you (lucidity).
But this veers off your original question.

A couple nights ago I had a sucessful WILD right when I was going to bed but I believe the reason that it was possible, was that I had about a 2 hour nap at around 6:00pm. I think because of this nap, I may have actually hit a REM.. Or maybe a miracle? Try it sometime!

Chris, I'm in no way shape or form an experienced LD'er or anything of the sort but i've been trying (and failing might I add) the WILD before sleeping. I've almost gotten it quite a few times but my breathing gets all shallow and I start freaking out. I'm willing to join you in this experiment though. I will try to keep letting you know what goes down every day and record my findings on this site somewheres. Would you like to do that here, or in PM or create a new thread? Just let me know and good luck!

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Originally Posted by Shift

All of the claims that NREM sleep is less vivid or about certain things seem to be inaccurate, as the research I've managed to come across all seem to have different ideas

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My point was that your WILD can dump you into a state where there is no dream at all. No NREM dream, no REM dream, just sleep. You can maintain consciousness while asleep, even if you are not dreaming at all.

Oh yea ya ya, I totally agree with that. That weird limbo state! Grrr...

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

It will be good practice, but don't get frustrated if you can't get the results you are hoping for. It is more like entering a deep trance than entering a lucid dream. In fact, I've always believed the main difference between deep trance meditation and lucid dreaming is the timing.

I agree with Tornado Joe. You can WILD into NREM dreams, but they are nothing like typical lucid dreams. It is a very weird limbo state. In the Tibetan tradition, you train to hold your awareness throughout the entire night. You stay aware as you slip into and out of REM dreams, NREM dreams, and nothingness. You may want to read up on some Tibetan Dream Yoga excercises.

I can always tell when I end up in this place. Everything goes normal during my WILD, then I just end up in a calm void. It feels like I'm stuck, and just can't enter a dream. Sometimes it is accompanied by a weird loss of ego, or loss of localized consciousness. It is an amazing state in its own right, and something that is the main goal of many types of meditation. You could say it is the base of some entire religions.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man :P

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I had a post about your last paragraph. I had no idea what this state and place was. You're not awake, but you're conscious and you're not dreaming.
I have found my answer, thanks!!

I thought SP always came before REM. If you're trying to WILD into NREM sleep, wouldn't SP be an indication that you're doing a regular WILD? Or is SP just the transition into any type of dream? If that's the case, then how will you know whether you're going into a REM LD or a NREM LD? I heard that when people sleepwalk it's during NREM sleep, because there's no SP so they can move.

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Originally Posted by Hidden

I thought SP always came before REM. If you're trying to WILD into NREM sleep, wouldn't SP be an indication that you're doing a regular WILD? Or is SP just the transition into any type of dream? If that's the case, then how will you know whether you're going into a REM LD or a NREM LD? I heard that when people sleepwalk it's during NREM sleep, because there's no SP so they can move.

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SP by definition is not REM. Sleep paralysis is the paralysis of your body outside of REM sleep. Particularly, when you are awake and trying to move and cannot. Sleep walking has nothing to do with REM atonia or its absence (Rem Behavioral Disorder).

Sleep paralysis is just the paralysis of your body outside of REM. If you are WILDing, you may have SP since you are awake and you may use it to WILD and enter a dream. SP isn't really an indicator of anything except that you just so happen to be in SP. Or that you are not in REM.
Unless you're monitoring your brainwaves or trusting a nova-dreamer, you really can't tell if you're in REM or not.

It´s possible to dream outside REM, but it´s not as vivid (or that´s what I´ve heard)

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Originally Posted by Shift

SP by definition is not REM. Sleep paralysis is the paralysis of your body outside of REM sleep. Particularly, when you are awake and trying to move and cannot. Sleep walking has nothing to do with REM atonia or its absence (Rem Behavioral Disorder).

Sleep paralysis is just the paralysis of your body outside of REM. If you are WILDing, you may have SP since you are awake and you may use it to WILD and enter a dream. SP isn't really an indicator of anything except that you just so happen to be in SP. Or that you are not in REM.
Unless you're monitoring your brainwaves or trusting a nova-dreamer, you really can't tell if you're in REM or not.

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How can sleepwalking have nothing to do with REM atonia? If you're in (having?) REM atonia, you're paralyzed. You can't be walking around while you're paralyzed. ...Or can you?

Are you always paralyzed during REM? If you dream during NREM, are you paralyzed then too?

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Originally Posted by Hidden

How can sleepwalking have nothing to do with REM atonia? If you're in (having?) REM atonia, you're paralyzed. You can't be walking around while you're paralyzed. ...Or can you?

Are you always paralyzed during REM? If you dream during NREM, are you paralyzed then too?

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Because sleepwalking isn't related to REM sleep. So you're not under REM atonia.

No, you are typically not paralyzed during NREM.

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Originally Posted by Shift

Because sleepwalking isn't related to REM sleep. So you're not under REM atonia.

No, you are typically not paralyzed during NREM.

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Oooh, okay. I was thinking you had to be dreaming when you sleepwalk. But isn't there still a relationship between sleepwalking and REM in that when you're in REM you can't be sleepwalking because you're under REM atonia during REM? The wiki says that sleepwalking happens during deep sleep, which means it doesn't happen during REM. Sorry, I'm being kinda slow...

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Originally Posted by Shift

No, you are typically not paralyzed during NREM.

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Which would add up with my understanding of NREM, which is that strange head space where your justing thinking thinking thinking trying to tie up a problem or some such. But your not running around an imaginary dreamworld!


I sometimes find I dip into NREM after a REM dream. When I'm trying to remember a dream I slip back under. Next thing I know I've spend 1/2 an hour doing so.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

I sometimes find I dip into NREM after a REM dream. When I'm trying to remember a dream I slip back under. Next thing I know I've spend 1/2 an hour doing so.

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That sounds like me trying to do a WILD. I guess I need to work on my timing...

Whoever's trying to WILD any time, are you guys doing anything different from a regular WILD, or are you just trying to WILD when you first go to bed?

Can you just NOT quote me from now on? If you're going to put out these hypotheses and etc., find some real evidence or something and don't associate what I'm saying with what you're saying. I'm talking about NREM dreams. I have no idea what you're talking about but I don't want to be associated with it. Dig up your own evidence from legit sources and build a case for your ideas.

...Okay, never mind then. I don't see why you're mad all of a sudden; you could have just told me if I was bugging you.

As for what I was saying, maybe I wasn't very clear, but I was pretty much pointing out the obvious: if you're paralyzed during REM, then it isn't physically possible for you to be walking around (sleepwalking) because you're paralyzed. So if you can't be sleepwalking during REM, then you must be sleepwalking while you're not in REM. That's all I was saying; I don't see how it needs to be backed up with anything other than the fact that you're paralyzed during REM sleep. But I've gotten off-topic, so I'll stop now.

According to Stephen LaBerge's book "Lucid Dreaming: The power of being awake and aware in your dreams", you can dream in both NREM and REM :)

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Originally Posted by Hidden

...Okay, never mind then. I don't see why you're mad all of a sudden; you could have just told me if I was bugging you.

As for what I was saying, maybe I wasn't very clear, but I was pretty much pointing out the obvious: if you're paralyzed during REM, then it isn't physically possible for you to be walking around (sleepwalking) because you're paralyzed. So if you can't be sleepwalking during REM, then you must be sleepwalking while you're not in REM. That's all I was saying; I don't see how it needs to be backed up with anything other than the fact that you're paralyzed during REM sleep. But I've gotten off-topic, so I'll stop now.

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Its a very good point. If your not in SP during NREM then if you had proper dreams you should be acting out your dreams.


http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

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Although some superficial dreams occur during NREM sleep, most real dreams occur during the REM stage of the sleep cycle. There are marked differences between NREM dreams and REM dreams. NREM dreams tend to be anchored in reality and experienced as a semiconscious state of serenity. REM dreams are markedly "bizarre", lacking common sense, logic and often characterized by quick transitions in plot and setting. Often, when a person is awakened from REM sleep, they remember vividly the events of their dreams.

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It may be that NREM dreams are "thinking" dreams. The kind of visualisations and thoughts we have whilst day dreaming.
So for example you may be remember an event, and even putting a "what if" spin on it, imagining different outcomes,
but you're not actually inhabiting the dream, so have no need for SP to stop you running around in the real world.

ahh now it makes sense!!!
thnx for asking that question which finally got answered properly

That is a great point about "inhabiting the dream," moonshine. I know exactly what you are talking about.

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out? Is "not inhabiting the dream" the only thing holding your back from sleepwalking? This goes back to what Thor was talking about a few months ago about low muscle tone vs. complete atonia. REM atonia vs. NREM atonia vs. NREM low muscle tone. The literature seems to be a little unclear about the details of these things.

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported? Like Shift said, unless you hook yourself up to a monitor, there is no real way to know when you are in what stage of sleep. You have to rely on your experience, which can obviously be misleading. It is a dream, after all, a hallucination. It is hard enough to know when you are even dreaming. Pinpointing what stage of sleep you are in seems almost impossible.

It is impossible :(

I can remember i had a dream during NREM sleep it was very very blurred and dark it was like a half finished painting there were holes all over that opened into endless black pits.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

That is a great point about "inhabiting the dream," moonshine. I know exactly what you are talking about.

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out? Is "not inhabiting the dream" the only thing holding your back from sleepwalking? This goes back to what Thor was talking about a few months ago about low muscle tone vs. complete atonia. REM atonia vs. NREM atonia vs. NREM low muscle tone. The literature seems to be a little unclear about the details of these things.

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported? Like Shift said, unless you hook yourself up to a monitor, there is no real way to know when you are in what stage of sleep. You have to rely on your experience, which can obviously be misleading. It is a dream, after all, a hallucination. It is hard enough to know when you are even dreaming. Pinpointing what stage of sleep you are in seems almost impossible.

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hmm, I have to disagree with your final statement about it being impossible to pinpoint the stage of sleep you're in. If you use an EEG(if I'm not mistaken about the machine name) and then once you LD, you can use some kind of signal with your eyes, then the machine will record it. This was how Dr. LaBerge proved that Lucid Dreaming exists. Once you are awake, you can look at the EEG and find the peaks that correspond to your signal and determine the stage of sleep. Far as I know, you can move your eyes in REM, but, not sure about NREM. If you can't do so in NREM, then if the EEG doesn't pick up anything even though you did the signal, it means that you dreamt in NREM, because, if it was REM, then it would have picked it up, so, either way you'll find the stage you dreamt in :)

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Originally Posted by The Legend

I can remember i had a dream during NREM sleep it was very very blurred and dark it was like a half finished painting there were holes all over that opened into endless black pits.

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hmm, makes me wonder if my LD was in NREM and not REM. Why do I say this? Well, while the dream happened over 1-2 month ago if I'm not mistaken, it felt hazy which might have been the reason I realized that I was dreaming right off the bat with no RCs done :)

I wanted to add that I think its possible to get an LD outside of the REM cycle. One thing though, if you exercise and end up getting SP when you go to bed, could you WILD into a REM period or would it still be NREM? :)

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Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, I have to disagree with your final statement about it being impossible to pinpoint the stage of sleep you're in. If you use an EEG(if I'm not mistaken about the machine name) and then once you LD, you can use some kind of signal with your eyes, then the machine will record it. This was how Dr. LaBerge proved that Lucid Dreaming exists. Once you are awake, you can look at the EEG and find the peaks that correspond to your signal and determine the stage of sleep. Far as I know, you can move your eyes in REM, but, not sure about NREM. If you can't do so in NREM, then if the EEG doesn't pick up anything even though you did the signal, it means that you dreamt in NREM, because, if it was REM, then it would have picked it up, so, either way you'll find the stage you dreamt in :)

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Well yes everyone knows this, we're talking about the average person sleeping in their bed at home with no such devices. If you don't have them, it's probably impossible. It may be possible to use one to learn what your NREM and REM dream differences are an guess later on when you're not using a machine. But basically, that's what we're saying- unless you have some sort of device, it's going to be impossible.

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Originally Posted by Shift

Well yes everyone knows this, we're talking about the average person sleeping in their bed at home with no such devices. If you don't have them, it's probably impossible. It may be possible to use one to learn what your NREM and REM dream differences are an guess later on when you're not using a machine. But basically, that's what we're saying- unless you have some sort of device, it's going to be impossible.

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oh, ok, yes, you're right then. Without a device, its likely impossible to learn if you dreamt in NREM or REM, but, with one, its pretty easy :)

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out?

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Here you are assuming that any hallucinatory proprioceptive experience will necessarily lead to body movement, but that's an invalid assumption. For example, just as you could be hallucinate a pink elephant hovering in the air in front of you, you could hallucinate raising your arm, but that doesn't mean your arm has to actually move (or it wouldn't be a hallucination, would it?). The same holds true for hallucinatory experiences in sleep, also known as dreams. So it shouldn't be a mystery that you can have "inhabited" NREM dreams without acting them out.

So why then is atonia necessary to keep you from acting out your dreams in REM sleep? Well, bear in mind that the brain in REM sleep works in a very different way than in NREM sleep. It's probably safe to say that the difference between REM and NREM is as big as the difference between NREM and wakefulness. Just because atonia is necessary in REM sleep, there is nothing that implies that it's necessary in NREM sleep; the brain just works in a different way.

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Originally Posted by Thor

Here you are assuming that any hallucinatory proprioceptive experience will necessarily lead to body movement, but that's an invalid assumption. For example, just as you could be hallucinate a pink elephant hovering in the air in front of you, you could hallucinate raising your arm, but that doesn't mean your arm has to actually move (or it wouldn't be a hallucination, would it?). The same holds true for hallucinatory experiences in sleep, also known as dreams. So it shouldn't be a mystery that you can have "inhabited" NREM dreams without acting them out.

So why then is atonia necessary to keep you from acting out your dreams in REM sleep? Well, bear in mind that the brain in REM sleep works in a very different way than in NREM sleep. It's probably safe to say that the difference between REM and NREM is as big as the difference between NREM and wakefulness. Just because atonia is necessary in REM sleep, there is nothing that implies that it's necessary in NREM sleep; the brain just works in a different way.

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That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

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hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either :P

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Originally Posted by moonshine

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

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REM dreams are generally more vivid, and NREM dreams are generally more thoughtlike, so if you have a vivid dream it's most likely a REM dream, and if you have a thoughtlike dream it's most likely an NREM dream. However, a significant proportion of REM dreams are thoughtlike, and a significant proportion of NREM dreams are vivid. Yet, people do not act out vivid NREM dreams. (Well, they do in sleepwalking and night terrors, but those are anomalous anyway.)

I think asking why we have atonia only in REM sleep is the wrong question. In my opinion a more interesting question is: what is it about REM sleep that causes the brain to transmit nerve impulses to make the limbs move, thereby necessiating REM atonia?

As an aside, I don't understand why you say "thoughtlike or daydreaming", because daydreaming is very immersive and quite the oppsite of thoughtlike.

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Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either :P

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In point of fact you can. People woken in the lab during NREM do describe something.

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Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either :P

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How do you know you were in NREM?

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Originally Posted by Thor

REM dreams are generally more vivid, and NREM dreams are generally more thoughtlike, so if you have a vivid dream it's most likely a REM dream, and if you have a thoughtlike dream it's most likely an NREM dream. However, a significant proportion of REM dreams are thoughtlike, and a significant proportion of NREM dreams are vivid. Yet, people do not act out vivid NREM dreams. (Well, they do in sleepwalking and night terrors, but those are anomalous anyway.

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Not convinced by that Thor. Most of what I've read indicates that NREM and REM dreams are quite different.

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Originally Posted by Thor

I think asking why we have atonia only in REM sleep is the wrong question. In my opinion a more interesting question is: what is it about REM sleep that causes the brain to transmit nerve impulses to make the limbs move, thereby necessiating REM atonia?

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The interesting answer is this: the fact that in REM you are inhabiting a 3D virtual world and so moving through it. Atonia stops your dream movements translating to real life.

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Originally Posted by Thor

As an aside, I don't understand why you say "thoughtlike or daydreaming", because daydreaming is very immersive and quite the oppsite of thoughtlike.

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Not really. Daydreaming is thinking. You can visualise whilst daydreaming, and I'm sure you can even visualise a model of yourself within daydreams.
But you do not inhabit the day dreams. Which in my mind is the critical difference.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

Not really. Daydreaming is thinking. You can visualise whilst daydreaming, and I'm sure you can even visualise a model of yourself within daydreams.
But you do not inhabit the day dreams. Which in my mind is the critical difference.

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As far as I can understand, daydreaming is no more thinking than dreaming is. Daydreaming is perception, though it is imagined. And I don't know about you, but I certainly inhabit my daydreams as much as I inhabit my dreams (maybe even more so). The crucial difference is that dreams are hallucinated, that is, perceived as real, whereas in daydreams you are aware that it's only your imagination.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

Not convinced by that Thor. Most of what I've read indicates that NREM and REM dreams are quite different.

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Well, they are statistically different, but even the most conservative researchers acknowledge that 5-10% of all NREM dream reports are indistinguishable from REM dream reports by any criterion.

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Originally Posted by Thor

As far as I can understand, daydreaming is no more thinking than dreaming is. Daydreaming is perception, though it is imagined.

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Daydreaming is simply visualisation. Visualisation is still just a form of thought.

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Originally Posted by Thor

And I don't know about you, but I certainly inhabit my daydreams as much as I inhabit my dreams (maybe even more so).

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I don't think you're being honest with yourself Thor.
Imagining you're walking down the street in a day dream is simply not the same as actually experiencing yourself walk down a street in a dream scene.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moonshine

Daydreaming is simply visualisation. Visualisation is still just a form of thought.

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No, daydreaming can involve any and all of your senses. And if you think visualization is just a form of thought, then you could say the same thing about seeing.

Quote:

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I don't think you're being honest with yourself Thor.
Imagining you're walking down the street in a day dream is simply not the same as actually experiencing yourself walk down a street in a dream scene.

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Of course it's not the same. The difference is that the dream is perceived as real, while the daydream isn't. But to me there is no difference in the number of senses involved, or the level of detail. A thought, as I think of it, is fundamentally different and entirely verbal. On the other hand you can of course have thoughts while being in a dream or a daydream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

No, daydreaming can involve any and all of your senses. And if you think visualization is just a form of thought, then you could say the same thing about seeing.



Of course it's not the same. The difference is that the dream is perceived as real, while the daydream isn't. But to me there is no difference in the number of senses involved, or the level of detail. A thought, as I think of it, is fundamentally different and entirely verbal. On the other hand you can of course have thoughts while being in a dream or a daydream.

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I smell a semantic nit-picking coming on. :D

I have absolutely no idea how you don't consider imagination to be a thought process.

To clarify: imagining something whilst awake whether it involves sight, sound touch, smell or all of the above (i.e. daydreaming) and
actually dreaming of the experience are fundamentally quite different.

The perception of something actually being real is indeed the crucial difference. Which may be why Sleep Paralysis generally takes place during REM sleep.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

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Although some superficial dreams occur during NREM sleep, most real dreams occur during the REM stage of the sleep cycle. There are marked differences between NREM dreams and REM dreams. NREM dreams tend to be anchored in reality and experienced as a semiconscious state of serenity. REM dreams are markedly "bizarre", lacking common sense, logic and often characterized by quick transitions in plot and setting. Often, when a person is awakened from REM sleep, they remember vividly the events of their dreams.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by moonshine

I smell a semantic nit-picking coming on. :D

I have absolutely no idea how you don't consider imagination to be a thought process.

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Imagination is a "thought process" in the sense that it is a cognitive activity. But when researchers say that NREM dreams are often "thought-like" I don't think they include any and all cognitive activity, otherwise describing dreams as thought-like would be pointless. Rather, the whole point was to distinguish between thought dreams and sensory dreams.

Quote:

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To clarify: imagining something whilst awake whether it involves sight, sound touch, smell or all of the above (i.e. daydreaming) and
actually dreaming of the experience are fundamentally quite different.

The perception of something actually being real is indeed the crucial difference. Which may be why Sleep Paralysis generally takes place during REM sleep.

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I agree, except for the last sentence, which does not follow logically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moonshine

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

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That guy doesn't even cite his sources; he just lists a bunch of URLs at the end. If you read recent peer reviewed research papers, you will find that there is no disagreement in the research community that some NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams.

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Originally Posted by Shift

How do you know you were in NREM?

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I never said I did, but, if you wake up in the middle of the night, let's say <1.5h within sleep, it's quite possible to be a NREM cycle. It takes approximately 1.5h to get a REM cycle, so, waking before usually means you wake up in NREM :)

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Originally Posted by moonshine

In point of fact you can. People woken in the lab during NREM do describe something.

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I should have probably rephrased the question differently. From what I've read, people do remember something when awoken from NREM dreams, but, how much do they remember compared to REM dreams? That is what I'm interested in. I woke up a couple of times the last 2-3 nights and I would hazard that at least one to two must have been NREM and although, I do remember that I daydreamed something, I am still at a loss of words what it was. It's very perplexing to almost be able to grasp something, but, it's still out of your grasp :?

As to where I stand in this, I think REM sleep requires SP to prevent the enactment of your dream in RL while you sleep, as for NREM sleep, no SP is required because its similar to a daydream. Whenever I daydream, you can probably incorporate most senses by thinking back to let's say how an apple tasted or the sound it made when you bite it, but, unlike in REM, while are actually acting the dream, in the daydream, you can move but it's really you imagining that you moved, not that you have physically moved. So, if I'm not mistaken, I agree with moonshine on this one :)

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Originally Posted by BigFan

It takes approximately 1.5h to get a REM cycle, so, waking before usually means you wake up in NREM :)

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Not necessarily, which is why I asked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shift

Not necessarily, which is why I asked.

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Well, it gets shorter as the night goes, but, the general consesus is that at least the first 1.5h is most likely NREM :)

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Originally Posted by BigFan

Well, it gets shorter as the night goes, but, the general consesus is that at least the first 1.5h is most likely NREM :)

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That's because the general consensus is made by people who just read forums written by other people who just read forums. Like I said, not necessarily. It depends on a number of factors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shift

That's because the general consensus is made by people who just read forums written by other people who just read forums. Like I said, not necessarily. It depends on a number of factors.

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Actually I was going off a psychology class I took where we talked about the stage of dreams, their associated waves(beta, theta, etc....), time and a couple of other interesting information in there. I think it was around 1.5h at the start, but, will have to check :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigFan

Actually I was going off a psychology class I took where we talked about the stage of dreams, their associated waves(beta, theta, etc....), time and a couple of other interesting information in there. I think it was around 1.5h at the start, but, will have to check :)

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While you're at it look at the effects of napping to eliminate NREM requirements and REM onset sleep :)

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Originally Posted by Thor

Rather, the whole point was to distinguish between thought dreams and sensory dreams.

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So what would you consider a "thought dream"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

That guy doesn't even cite his sources; he just lists a bunch of URLs at the end. If you read recent peer reviewed research papers, you will find that there is no disagreement in the research community that some NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams.

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The URL's being...sources?

I think its fair to say that the "descriptions" of "some" NREM dreams "seem" indistinguishable from REM dreams.

I also note that peer reviewed research papers show that Atonia - or sleep paralysis - does take place outside of REM sleep. It shows a U shaped pattern which peaks before and after REM.

Quote:

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the present report systematically documents epochs of muscle atonia
in NREM sleep (MAN). Although their most frequent occurrence is in proximity to REM sleep, they are present throughout a NREM sleep episode. This gives rise to a Ushaped pattern. The present observations are in accordance with previous reports that epochs with a low EMG level occur in the part of the NREM sleep that precedes and follows REM sleep (4, 5, 12). These findings indicate that a REM sleep episode is not sharply delimited but that it has antecedents during NREM sleep and that it vanishes gradually in the succeeding NREM sleep episode.

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http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/re...466.2001v1.pdf

It seems that there is no on-off switch between NREM and REM and that there is a transition period.

Which would in my mind fit nicely with how thoughts gradually change to imagery before becoming a encompasing dream. As they do during a WILD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shift

While you're at it look at the effects of napping to eliminate NREM requirements and REM onset sleep :)

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I would but most of the information about sleeping was from the book, since, we were encouraged to study both notes and the book, because, it was a 40&#37; to 60% weighting on midterms and exam, but, I remembered that I've sold the book already :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moonshine

So what would you consider a "thought dream"?

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A thought dream is a dream that consists of thoughts and reflection, like "I really need to get my car fixed." They are not sensory oriented and don't have a storyline, and they are often dull and repetitive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moonshine

The URL's being...sources?

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That's not how you cite sources. You cite the reference for each sentence, or sometimes each part of a sentence. You don't list a bunch of URLs at the bottom of the article, leaving to the reader to sort out where the heck each particular claim came from. An article like that would never pass peer review in any reputable publication.

But if you have read through all those references, maybe you can tell me where that particular claim came from?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

A thought dream is a dream that consists of thoughts and reflection, like "I really need to get my car fixed." They are not sensory oriented and don't have a storyline, and they are often dull and repetitive.

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So a thought dream = thoughts. how is that different from what i said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

That's not how you cite sources. You cite the reference for each sentence, or sometimes each part of a sentence. You don't list a bunch of URLs at the bottom of the article, leaving to the reader to sort out where the heck each particular claim came from. An article like that would never pass peer review in any reputable publication.

But if you have read through all those references, maybe you can tell me where that particular claim came from?

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I'm fully aware that it wasn't a research paper.
But this does not neccesary mean its inaccurate.

Anyhow, any thoughts on the research paper I did link to?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moonshine

So a thought dream = thoughts. how is that different from what i said.

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Well, thoughts that you have in your sleep. The point is that thought-like dreams are neither like daydreams or vivid dreams.

Quote:

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I'm fully aware that it wasn't a research paper.
But this does not neccesary mean its inaccurate.

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Not necessarily, but the advantage of a research paper is that it's written in such a way that it's easy to check facts and methods.

Quote:

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Anyhow, any thoughts on the research paper I did link to?

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I didn't understand how that paper was supposed to support your contention that NREM dreams are different from REM dreams.

As to their discussion of "atonia" this is not atonia in the sense of the complete blockade of nerve signals that occurs in the brainstem during REM sleep. What they are talking about is atonia in the sense of low muscle tone as measured by EMG. Granted if you have real atonia you will have very low muscle tone, but if you have very low muscle tone, that's not necessarily an indication of real atonia. (Didn't we have this discussion last year?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

Well, thoughts that you have in your sleep. The point is that thought-like dreams are neither like daydreams or vivid dreams.

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Can't take your definition of daydreams seriously I'm afraid.
They're not actually dreams in any way shape or form.
Its simply being lost in though, whether said thoughts include visualisations etc or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

I didn't understand how that paper was supposed to support your contention that NREM dreams are different from REM dreams.

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I'm suggesting how it may be possible to have REM like dreams in whats technically NREM.
In that transition period. Because in that transition period you do have Atonia, which would prevent you acting out your dreams.
And if its a blurred line between having sleep paralysis and not, then there may well be an equally blurred line between
REM and NREM.


Which still leaves room for the "pure" NREM type dreams that I (and I'm others have experienced) when you feel like you've been awake all night with thoughts racing about in your head.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

As to their discussion of "atonia" this is not atonia in the sense of the complete blockade of nerve signals that occurs in the brainstem during REM sleep. What they are talking about is atonia in the sense of low muscle tone as measured by EMG. Granted if you have real atonia you will have very low muscle tone, but if you have very low muscle tone, that's not necessarily an indication of real atonia. (Didn't we have this discussion last year?)

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REM atonia and muscle atonia are essentially one in the same.
The papers stating that the Atonia which takes place during REM sleep also ramps up and ramps down in NREM Sleep.
Thats how I read it anyway.

(Best not to go into last years discussion - wasn't that when you were denying Sleep Paralysis could actually be used in WILD attempts?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moonshine

Can't take your definition of daydreams seriously I'm afraid.
They're not actually dreams in any way shape or form.
Its simply being lost in though, whether said thoughts include visualisations etc or not.

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I didn't say daydreams are dreams. I'm saying they can share a many features of dreams. They can be three-dimensional, involve any and all senses, and have complex storylines. The only feature I can see that makes a daydream different from a vivid dream is that a daydream is imagined, whereas a vivid dream is hallucinated.

But you're right that daydreams can also be simpler, like just being lost in thoughts.

Quote:

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I'm suggesting how it may be possible to have REM like dreams in whats technically NREM.
In that transition period. Because in that transition period you do have Atonia, which would prevent you acting out your dreams.
And if its a blurred line between having sleep paralysis and not, then there may well be an equally blurred line between
REM and NREM.

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Well, that's conjecture, and it's contradicted by the fact that NREM dream reports indistinguishable from REM dream reports have been obtained as much as 25 minutes after the last REM episode. It is also contradicted by the fact that reports of vivid dreams have been obtained from subjects in deep sleep, and the characteristics of deep sleep are totally different from those of REM sleep, so it would be very hard to confuse them.

Quote:

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REM atonia and muscle atonia are essentially one in the same.
The papers stating that the Atonia which takes place during REM sleep also ramps up and ramps down in NREM Sleep.
Thats how I read it anyway.

(Best not to go into last years discussion - wasn't that when you were denying Sleep Paralysis could actually be used in WILD attempts?)

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If you don't want a repeat of last years discussion it's not a good idea to insinuate that I said the opposite of what I actually did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

I didn't say daydreams are dreams. I'm saying they can share a many features of dreams. They can be three-dimensional, involve any and all senses, and have complex storylines. The only feature I can see that makes a daydream different from a vivid dream is that a daydream is imagined, whereas a vivid dream is hallucinated.

But you're right that daydreams can also be simpler, like just being lost in thoughts.

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They are three dimensional in so far as we are quite capable of imagining scenes in 3 dimensions. They have complex storylines if we imagine those story lines. Day dreams are manufactured thoughts. Imagination is a thought process. I for one would classify blankly gazing out of the window and imagining what your going to to when you get out of work as being lost in thought.

In any event, its all scemantics and hardly essential to the general discussions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

Well, that's conjecture

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Well Obviously!
But hey man, we're on the bleeding edge here. It would be a boring life indeed if you had to wait for someone to type up a nice report before we could throw ideas around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

and it's contradicted by the fact that NREM dream reports indistinguishable from REM dream reports have been obtained as much as 25 minutes after the last REM episode.

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Shouldn't that be "some" NREM reports are indistinguishable from REM dreams.
By the same token "some" NREM reports are indistinguishable from thinking.

I've offered my thoughts on why this might be the case.
It therefore seems to me that this corroborates my theory rather than contradicts it.

Its going to be a while until we can fit this complex subject into a nice square box I suspect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thor

If you don't want a repeat of last years discussion it's not a good idea to insinuate that I said the opposite of what I actually did.

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What, last year when you kept repeating that you didn't believe people were entering SP to WILD, despite numerous posters (now including me) describing how they were succesful in doing just that?

BTW The attached article suggests that you can in fact be in Atonia prior to entering REM (didn't you say this wasn't the case?), which it seems to me supports the WILDers experiences.

My theory is shaping up nicely! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported?

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Seems to me that you called it right RB!

Clearly, some NREM dreams are similar to REM dreams, so its a good job that Atonia kicks in outside of REM to prevent us running around in the dark. :D


http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/11/6/671.full

Quote:

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Foulkes (1985) has argued for the existence of NREM dreaming and against a simple “REM sleep = dreaming” view. By simply changing the question asked of awakened subjects from “Did you dream?” to “Did you experience any mental content?,” Foulkes was able to show a far higher percentage of dream reports from NREM stages than original studies had suggested. These dream reports after NREM awakenings led Foulkes and others to conclude that the stream of consciousness never ceases during sleep and that the brain engages in cognitive activity of some sort during all sleep stages (Antrobus 1990).

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Equally clearly, the above suggests that NREM activity can be more akin to simple thoughts.

looks like the transition from NREM to REM is more of a sliding scale than an on off switch.

My take on it is that science cannot prove that don't dream in non-rem sleep, so I think we do. These dreams are probably much harder to remember based on lower EEG frequencies. Ofcourse if you become lucid during a dream I guess that might bring you up to a rem like stage.

Wow, you guys really must have some time on your hands and must love to duke it out :lol: Anyways, to the OP, I do think it's possible to have an LD in a NREM cycle, but, not sure to the mechanism of this :P

Guys, seriously chill out. Not sure why you are all getting so caught up with something such as this :)

You're right. We did sort of hijack this thread. I'm going to close this and split it back into our old discussion on this topic that started here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67632
And was closed, and then moved here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67732

I don't want to close this to spite anyone, or "have the last word". I think there is good information here, but it might make more sense in the context of our previous discussion. Lets continue, where we already previously agreed to discuss this, here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67732