Thread: Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

Originally Posted by moonshine

Daydreaming is simply visualisation. Visualisation is still just a form of thought.

No, daydreaming can involve any and all of your senses. And if you think visualization is just a form of thought, then you could say the same thing about seeing.

I don't think you're being honest with yourself Thor.
Imagining you're walking down the street in a day dream is simply not the same as actually experiencing yourself walk down a street in a dream scene.

Of course it's not the same. The difference is that the dream is perceived as real, while the daydream isn't. But to me there is no difference in the number of senses involved, or the level of detail. A thought, as I think of it, is fundamentally different and entirely verbal. On the other hand you can of course have thoughts while being in a dream or a daydream.

Originally Posted by Thor

No, daydreaming can involve any and all of your senses. And if you think visualization is just a form of thought, then you could say the same thing about seeing.



Of course it's not the same. The difference is that the dream is perceived as real, while the daydream isn't. But to me there is no difference in the number of senses involved, or the level of detail. A thought, as I think of it, is fundamentally different and entirely verbal. On the other hand you can of course have thoughts while being in a dream or a daydream.

I smell a semantic nit-picking coming on.

I have absolutely no idea how you don't consider imagination to be a thought process.

To clarify: imagining something whilst awake whether it involves sight, sound touch, smell or all of the above (i.e. daydreaming) and
actually dreaming of the experience are fundamentally quite different.

The perception of something actually being real is indeed the crucial difference. Which may be why Sleep Paralysis generally takes place during REM sleep.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

Although some superficial dreams occur during NREM sleep, most real dreams occur during the REM stage of the sleep cycle. There are marked differences between NREM dreams and REM dreams. NREM dreams tend to be anchored in reality and experienced as a semiconscious state of serenity. REM dreams are markedly "bizarre", lacking common sense, logic and often characterized by quick transitions in plot and setting. Often, when a person is awakened from REM sleep, they remember vividly the events of their dreams.

Originally Posted by moonshine

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

That guy doesn't even cite his sources; he just lists a bunch of URLs at the end. If you read recent peer reviewed research papers, you will find that there is no disagreement in the research community that some NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams.

Originally Posted by Shift

How do you know you were in NREM?

I never said I did, but, if you wake up in the middle of the night, let's say <1.5h within sleep, it's quite possible to be a NREM cycle. It takes approximately 1.5h to get a REM cycle, so, waking before usually means you wake up in NREM

Originally Posted by moonshine

In point of fact you can. People woken in the lab during NREM do describe something.

I should have probably rephrased the question differently. From what I've read, people do remember something when awoken from NREM dreams, but, how much do they remember compared to REM dreams? That is what I'm interested in. I woke up a couple of times the last 2-3 nights and I would hazard that at least one to two must have been NREM and although, I do remember that I daydreamed something, I am still at a loss of words what it was. It's very perplexing to almost be able to grasp something, but, it's still out of your grasp

As to where I stand in this, I think REM sleep requires SP to prevent the enactment of your dream in RL while you sleep, as for NREM sleep, no SP is required because its similar to a daydream. Whenever I daydream, you can probably incorporate most senses by thinking back to let's say how an apple tasted or the sound it made when you bite it, but, unlike in REM, while are actually acting the dream, in the daydream, you can move but it's really you imagining that you moved, not that you have physically moved. So, if I'm not mistaken, I agree with moonshine on this one

Originally Posted by BigFan

It takes approximately 1.5h to get a REM cycle, so, waking before usually means you wake up in NREM

Not necessarily, which is why I asked.

Originally Posted by Shift

Not necessarily, which is why I asked.

Well, it gets shorter as the night goes, but, the general consesus is that at least the first 1.5h is most likely NREM

Originally Posted by Thor

That guy doesn't even cite his sources; he just lists a bunch of URLs at the end. If you read recent peer reviewed research papers, you will find that there is no disagreement in the research community that some NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams.

The URL's being...sources?

I think its fair to say that the "descriptions" of "some" NREM dreams "seem" indistinguishable from REM dreams.

I also note that peer reviewed research papers show that Atonia - or sleep paralysis - does take place outside of REM sleep. It shows a U shaped pattern which peaks before and after REM.

the present report systematically documents epochs of muscle atonia
in NREM sleep (MAN). Although their most frequent occurrence is in proximity to REM sleep, they are present throughout a NREM sleep episode. This gives rise to a Ushaped pattern. The present observations are in accordance with previous reports that epochs with a low EMG level occur in the part of the NREM sleep that precedes and follows REM sleep (4, 5, 12). These findings indicate that a REM sleep episode is not sharply delimited but that it has antecedents during NREM sleep and that it vanishes gradually in the succeeding NREM sleep episode.

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/re...466.2001v1.pdf

It seems that there is no on-off switch between NREM and REM and that there is a transition period.

Which would in my mind fit nicely with how thoughts gradually change to imagery before becoming a encompasing dream. As they do during a WILD.

Originally Posted by moonshine

The URL's being...sources?

That's not how you cite sources. You cite the reference for each sentence, or sometimes each part of a sentence. You don't list a bunch of URLs at the bottom of the article, leaving to the reader to sort out where the heck each particular claim came from. An article like that would never pass peer review in any reputable publication.

But if you have read through all those references, maybe you can tell me where that particular claim came from?

Originally Posted by moonshine

I smell a semantic nit-picking coming on.

I have absolutely no idea how you don't consider imagination to be a thought process.

Imagination is a "thought process" in the sense that it is a cognitive activity. But when researchers say that NREM dreams are often "thought-like" I don't think they include any and all cognitive activity, otherwise describing dreams as thought-like would be pointless. Rather, the whole point was to distinguish between thought dreams and sensory dreams.

To clarify: imagining something whilst awake whether it involves sight, sound touch, smell or all of the above (i.e. daydreaming) and
actually dreaming of the experience are fundamentally quite different.

The perception of something actually being real is indeed the crucial difference. Which may be why Sleep Paralysis generally takes place during REM sleep.

I agree, except for the last sentence, which does not follow logically.

Originally Posted by Thor

Rather, the whole point was to distinguish between thought dreams and sensory dreams.

So what would you consider a "thought dream"?

Originally Posted by moonshine

So what would you consider a "thought dream"?

A thought dream is a dream that consists of thoughts and reflection, like "I really need to get my car fixed." They are not sensory oriented and don't have a storyline, and they are often dull and repetitive.

Originally Posted by Thor

A thought dream is a dream that consists of thoughts and reflection, like "I really need to get my car fixed." They are not sensory oriented and don't have a storyline, and they are often dull and repetitive.

So a thought dream = thoughts. how is that different from what i said.

Originally Posted by Thor

That's not how you cite sources. You cite the reference for each sentence, or sometimes each part of a sentence. You don't list a bunch of URLs at the bottom of the article, leaving to the reader to sort out where the heck each particular claim came from. An article like that would never pass peer review in any reputable publication.

But if you have read through all those references, maybe you can tell me where that particular claim came from?

I'm fully aware that it wasn't a research paper.
But this does not neccesary mean its inaccurate.

Anyhow, any thoughts on the research paper I did link to?

Originally Posted by moonshine

So a thought dream = thoughts. how is that different from what i said.

Well, thoughts that you have in your sleep. The point is that thought-like dreams are neither like daydreams or vivid dreams.

I'm fully aware that it wasn't a research paper.
But this does not neccesary mean its inaccurate.

Not necessarily, but the advantage of a research paper is that it's written in such a way that it's easy to check facts and methods.

Anyhow, any thoughts on the research paper I did link to?

I didn't understand how that paper was supposed to support your contention that NREM dreams are different from REM dreams.

As to their discussion of "atonia" this is not atonia in the sense of the complete blockade of nerve signals that occurs in the brainstem during REM sleep. What they are talking about is atonia in the sense of low muscle tone as measured by EMG. Granted if you have real atonia you will have very low muscle tone, but if you have very low muscle tone, that's not necessarily an indication of real atonia. (Didn't we have this discussion last year?)