Thread: Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

Originally Posted by Shift

No, you are typically not paralyzed during NREM.

Which would add up with my understanding of NREM, which is that strange head space where your justing thinking thinking thinking trying to tie up a problem or some such. But your not running around an imaginary dreamworld!


I sometimes find I dip into NREM after a REM dream. When I'm trying to remember a dream I slip back under. Next thing I know I've spend 1/2 an hour doing so.

Originally Posted by moonshine

I sometimes find I dip into NREM after a REM dream. When I'm trying to remember a dream I slip back under. Next thing I know I've spend 1/2 an hour doing so.

That sounds like me trying to do a WILD. I guess I need to work on my timing...

Whoever's trying to WILD any time, are you guys doing anything different from a regular WILD, or are you just trying to WILD when you first go to bed?

Can you just NOT quote me from now on? If you're going to put out these hypotheses and etc., find some real evidence or something and don't associate what I'm saying with what you're saying. I'm talking about NREM dreams. I have no idea what you're talking about but I don't want to be associated with it. Dig up your own evidence from legit sources and build a case for your ideas.

...Okay, never mind then. I don't see why you're mad all of a sudden; you could have just told me if I was bugging you.

As for what I was saying, maybe I wasn't very clear, but I was pretty much pointing out the obvious: if you're paralyzed during REM, then it isn't physically possible for you to be walking around (sleepwalking) because you're paralyzed. So if you can't be sleepwalking during REM, then you must be sleepwalking while you're not in REM. That's all I was saying; I don't see how it needs to be backed up with anything other than the fact that you're paralyzed during REM sleep. But I've gotten off-topic, so I'll stop now.

According to Stephen LaBerge's book "Lucid Dreaming: The power of being awake and aware in your dreams", you can dream in both NREM and REM

Originally Posted by Hidden

...Okay, never mind then. I don't see why you're mad all of a sudden; you could have just told me if I was bugging you.

As for what I was saying, maybe I wasn't very clear, but I was pretty much pointing out the obvious: if you're paralyzed during REM, then it isn't physically possible for you to be walking around (sleepwalking) because you're paralyzed. So if you can't be sleepwalking during REM, then you must be sleepwalking while you're not in REM. That's all I was saying; I don't see how it needs to be backed up with anything other than the fact that you're paralyzed during REM sleep. But I've gotten off-topic, so I'll stop now.

Its a very good point. If your not in SP during NREM then if you had proper dreams you should be acting out your dreams.


http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

Although some superficial dreams occur during NREM sleep, most real dreams occur during the REM stage of the sleep cycle. There are marked differences between NREM dreams and REM dreams. NREM dreams tend to be anchored in reality and experienced as a semiconscious state of serenity. REM dreams are markedly "bizarre", lacking common sense, logic and often characterized by quick transitions in plot and setting. Often, when a person is awakened from REM sleep, they remember vividly the events of their dreams.

It may be that NREM dreams are "thinking" dreams. The kind of visualisations and thoughts we have whilst day dreaming.
So for example you may be remember an event, and even putting a "what if" spin on it, imagining different outcomes,
but you're not actually inhabiting the dream, so have no need for SP to stop you running around in the real world.

ahh now it makes sense!!!
thnx for asking that question which finally got answered properly

That is a great point about "inhabiting the dream," moonshine. I know exactly what you are talking about.

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out? Is "not inhabiting the dream" the only thing holding your back from sleepwalking? This goes back to what Thor was talking about a few months ago about low muscle tone vs. complete atonia. REM atonia vs. NREM atonia vs. NREM low muscle tone. The literature seems to be a little unclear about the details of these things.

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported? Like Shift said, unless you hook yourself up to a monitor, there is no real way to know when you are in what stage of sleep. You have to rely on your experience, which can obviously be misleading. It is a dream, after all, a hallucination. It is hard enough to know when you are even dreaming. Pinpointing what stage of sleep you are in seems almost impossible.

It is impossible

I can remember i had a dream during NREM sleep it was very very blurred and dark it was like a half finished painting there were holes all over that opened into endless black pits.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

That is a great point about "inhabiting the dream," moonshine. I know exactly what you are talking about.

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out? Is "not inhabiting the dream" the only thing holding your back from sleepwalking? This goes back to what Thor was talking about a few months ago about low muscle tone vs. complete atonia. REM atonia vs. NREM atonia vs. NREM low muscle tone. The literature seems to be a little unclear about the details of these things.

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported? Like Shift said, unless you hook yourself up to a monitor, there is no real way to know when you are in what stage of sleep. You have to rely on your experience, which can obviously be misleading. It is a dream, after all, a hallucination. It is hard enough to know when you are even dreaming. Pinpointing what stage of sleep you are in seems almost impossible.

hmm, I have to disagree with your final statement about it being impossible to pinpoint the stage of sleep you're in. If you use an EEG(if I'm not mistaken about the machine name) and then once you LD, you can use some kind of signal with your eyes, then the machine will record it. This was how Dr. LaBerge proved that Lucid Dreaming exists. Once you are awake, you can look at the EEG and find the peaks that correspond to your signal and determine the stage of sleep. Far as I know, you can move your eyes in REM, but, not sure about NREM. If you can't do so in NREM, then if the EEG doesn't pick up anything even though you did the signal, it means that you dreamt in NREM, because, if it was REM, then it would have picked it up, so, either way you'll find the stage you dreamt in

Originally Posted by The Legend

I can remember i had a dream during NREM sleep it was very very blurred and dark it was like a half finished painting there were holes all over that opened into endless black pits.

hmm, makes me wonder if my LD was in NREM and not REM. Why do I say this? Well, while the dream happened over 1-2 month ago if I'm not mistaken, it felt hazy which might have been the reason I realized that I was dreaming right off the bat with no RCs done

I wanted to add that I think its possible to get an LD outside of the REM cycle. One thing though, if you exercise and end up getting SP when you go to bed, could you WILD into a REM period or would it still be NREM?

Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, I have to disagree with your final statement about it being impossible to pinpoint the stage of sleep you're in. If you use an EEG(if I'm not mistaken about the machine name) and then once you LD, you can use some kind of signal with your eyes, then the machine will record it. This was how Dr. LaBerge proved that Lucid Dreaming exists. Once you are awake, you can look at the EEG and find the peaks that correspond to your signal and determine the stage of sleep. Far as I know, you can move your eyes in REM, but, not sure about NREM. If you can't do so in NREM, then if the EEG doesn't pick up anything even though you did the signal, it means that you dreamt in NREM, because, if it was REM, then it would have picked it up, so, either way you'll find the stage you dreamt in

Well yes everyone knows this, we're talking about the average person sleeping in their bed at home with no such devices. If you don't have them, it's probably impossible. It may be possible to use one to learn what your NREM and REM dream differences are an guess later on when you're not using a machine. But basically, that's what we're saying- unless you have some sort of device, it's going to be impossible.

Originally Posted by Shift

Well yes everyone knows this, we're talking about the average person sleeping in their bed at home with no such devices. If you don't have them, it's probably impossible. It may be possible to use one to learn what your NREM and REM dream differences are an guess later on when you're not using a machine. But basically, that's what we're saying- unless you have some sort of device, it's going to be impossible.

oh, ok, yes, you're right then. Without a device, its likely impossible to learn if you dreamt in NREM or REM, but, with one, its pretty easy

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out?

Here you are assuming that any hallucinatory proprioceptive experience will necessarily lead to body movement, but that's an invalid assumption. For example, just as you could be hallucinate a pink elephant hovering in the air in front of you, you could hallucinate raising your arm, but that doesn't mean your arm has to actually move (or it wouldn't be a hallucination, would it?). The same holds true for hallucinatory experiences in sleep, also known as dreams. So it shouldn't be a mystery that you can have "inhabited" NREM dreams without acting them out.

So why then is atonia necessary to keep you from acting out your dreams in REM sleep? Well, bear in mind that the brain in REM sleep works in a very different way than in NREM sleep. It's probably safe to say that the difference between REM and NREM is as big as the difference between NREM and wakefulness. Just because atonia is necessary in REM sleep, there is nothing that implies that it's necessary in NREM sleep; the brain just works in a different way.

Originally Posted by Thor

Here you are assuming that any hallucinatory proprioceptive experience will necessarily lead to body movement, but that's an invalid assumption. For example, just as you could be hallucinate a pink elephant hovering in the air in front of you, you could hallucinate raising your arm, but that doesn't mean your arm has to actually move (or it wouldn't be a hallucination, would it?). The same holds true for hallucinatory experiences in sleep, also known as dreams. So it shouldn't be a mystery that you can have "inhabited" NREM dreams without acting them out.

So why then is atonia necessary to keep you from acting out your dreams in REM sleep? Well, bear in mind that the brain in REM sleep works in a very different way than in NREM sleep. It's probably safe to say that the difference between REM and NREM is as big as the difference between NREM and wakefulness. Just because atonia is necessary in REM sleep, there is nothing that implies that it's necessary in NREM sleep; the brain just works in a different way.

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

Originally Posted by moonshine

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either

Originally Posted by moonshine

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

REM dreams are generally more vivid, and NREM dreams are generally more thoughtlike, so if you have a vivid dream it's most likely a REM dream, and if you have a thoughtlike dream it's most likely an NREM dream. However, a significant proportion of REM dreams are thoughtlike, and a significant proportion of NREM dreams are vivid. Yet, people do not act out vivid NREM dreams. (Well, they do in sleepwalking and night terrors, but those are anomalous anyway.)

I think asking why we have atonia only in REM sleep is the wrong question. In my opinion a more interesting question is: what is it about REM sleep that causes the brain to transmit nerve impulses to make the limbs move, thereby necessiating REM atonia?

As an aside, I don't understand why you say "thoughtlike or daydreaming", because daydreaming is very immersive and quite the oppsite of thoughtlike.

Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either

In point of fact you can. People woken in the lab during NREM do describe something.

Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either

How do you know you were in NREM?

Originally Posted by Thor

REM dreams are generally more vivid, and NREM dreams are generally more thoughtlike, so if you have a vivid dream it's most likely a REM dream, and if you have a thoughtlike dream it's most likely an NREM dream. However, a significant proportion of REM dreams are thoughtlike, and a significant proportion of NREM dreams are vivid. Yet, people do not act out vivid NREM dreams. (Well, they do in sleepwalking and night terrors, but those are anomalous anyway.

Not convinced by that Thor. Most of what I've read indicates that NREM and REM dreams are quite different.

Originally Posted by Thor

I think asking why we have atonia only in REM sleep is the wrong question. In my opinion a more interesting question is: what is it about REM sleep that causes the brain to transmit nerve impulses to make the limbs move, thereby necessiating REM atonia?

The interesting answer is this: the fact that in REM you are inhabiting a 3D virtual world and so moving through it. Atonia stops your dream movements translating to real life.

Originally Posted by Thor

As an aside, I don't understand why you say "thoughtlike or daydreaming", because daydreaming is very immersive and quite the oppsite of thoughtlike.

Not really. Daydreaming is thinking. You can visualise whilst daydreaming, and I'm sure you can even visualise a model of yourself within daydreams.
But you do not inhabit the day dreams. Which in my mind is the critical difference.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Not really. Daydreaming is thinking. You can visualise whilst daydreaming, and I'm sure you can even visualise a model of yourself within daydreams.
But you do not inhabit the day dreams. Which in my mind is the critical difference.

As far as I can understand, daydreaming is no more thinking than dreaming is. Daydreaming is perception, though it is imagined. And I don't know about you, but I certainly inhabit my daydreams as much as I inhabit my dreams (maybe even more so). The crucial difference is that dreams are hallucinated, that is, perceived as real, whereas in daydreams you are aware that it's only your imagination.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Not convinced by that Thor. Most of what I've read indicates that NREM and REM dreams are quite different.

Well, they are statistically different, but even the most conservative researchers acknowledge that 5-10% of all NREM dream reports are indistinguishable from REM dream reports by any criterion.

Originally Posted by Thor

As far as I can understand, daydreaming is no more thinking than dreaming is. Daydreaming is perception, though it is imagined.

Daydreaming is simply visualisation. Visualisation is still just a form of thought.

Originally Posted by Thor

And I don't know about you, but I certainly inhabit my daydreams as much as I inhabit my dreams (maybe even more so).

I don't think you're being honest with yourself Thor.
Imagining you're walking down the street in a day dream is simply not the same as actually experiencing yourself walk down a street in a dream scene.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Daydreaming is simply visualisation. Visualisation is still just a form of thought.

No, daydreaming can involve any and all of your senses. And if you think visualization is just a form of thought, then you could say the same thing about seeing.

I don't think you're being honest with yourself Thor.
Imagining you're walking down the street in a day dream is simply not the same as actually experiencing yourself walk down a street in a dream scene.

Of course it's not the same. The difference is that the dream is perceived as real, while the daydream isn't. But to me there is no difference in the number of senses involved, or the level of detail. A thought, as I think of it, is fundamentally different and entirely verbal. On the other hand you can of course have thoughts while being in a dream or a daydream.