Thread: Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

My main question is, can I lie down in my bed and use a WILD FILD or otherwise LD inducing technique while in a regular pattern my brain will go into theta wave instead of REM?

I want to try some techniques but I'd like to know before hand if practicing them will actually have any effect at all...


Does anyone have experience or a theoretical base for the entering or a REM phase (preferably LD) while it does not fit in ones biological rhythm?

Any comments or otherwise constructive information will be greatly appreciated...

- Chris

I don't think that is possible, but if you find a way, please tell us! That would be the holy grail of lucidity! (Except for an instant foolproof WILD that requires no random awakenings)

Hi Chris,

that's a prettty good question that I thought I knew, until it was pointed out to me that we (apparently) seem to dream in other cycles of sleep, not just during REM. The dreams are, however, not easily remembered at all (and probably nowhere near as intense or linear).

So, in my opinion, probably not. HOWEVER....

I would suspect that if you had good training in meditation - the kind which you can control your brainwave frequency pretty moderately, you should be able to have and experience very similar to LDing, if not LDing itself.

Any chance of writing a tutorial on it?

Originally Posted by Ryuinfinity

I don't think that is possible, but if you find a way, please tell us! That would be the holy grail of lucidity! (Except for an instant foolproof WILD that requires no random awakenings)

Well, I take that as a chalenge. it is for me thhe goal of my LD practice. DILD is fun, WAILD (WakeAnytimeInducedLD) would be devine.

Ok, lets consider this a project started... I'll use any technique I know ranging from hypnosis to meditation and otherwise... If anyone wishes to join me, tell me and we'll team up.

Lets look for that holy grail for yours...


- Chris

It will be good practice, but don't get frustrated if you can't get the results you are hoping for. It is more like entering a deep trance than entering a lucid dream. In fact, I've always believed the main difference between deep trance meditation and lucid dreaming is the timing.

I agree with Tornado Joe. You can WILD into NREM dreams, but they are nothing like typical lucid dreams. It is a very weird limbo state. In the Tibetan tradition, you train to hold your awareness throughout the entire night. You stay aware as you slip into and out of REM dreams, NREM dreams, and nothingness. You may want to read up on some Tibetan Dream Yoga excercises.

I can always tell when I end up in this place. Everything goes normal during my WILD, then I just end up in a calm void. It feels like I'm stuck, and just can't enter a dream. Sometimes it is accompanied by a weird loss of ego, or loss of localized consciousness. It is an amazing state in its own right, and something that is the main goal of many types of meditation. You could say it is the base of some entire religions.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man

All of the claims that NREM sleep is less vivid or about certain things seem to be inaccurate, as the research I've managed to come across all seem to have different ideas- some say that NREM is less vivid, others say just-as-if-not-more vivid, while some say NREM is about daily drudgery while others say NREM is just as fantastical as REM, some say NREM is more 'abstract', while others say it is identical to REM in 'form'... Unless the individual subjects themselves have their own different types of NREM (ex: in John NREM will not be vivid and will be 'realistic', while Jane will have highly vivid and fantastic NREM) what I've essentially taken away from it is that there are no strict rules and that the average dreamer is not going to be able to tell NREM from REM dreams because the experiences, on average, seem to be the same.

Yes, you can dream in NREM.
Yes, you can lucid dream in NREM.
Both of these have evidence supporting them, you can easily find articles on the subject.

You may have trouble WILDing straight into an NREM period. I am not an accomplished WILDer in the slightest, but from the literature I've read as well as the personal accounts in DV, it is POSSIBLE. However, since it is the very beginning of your sleep cycle, you may have trouble doing it and it's probably not recommended for those who are not adept at WILDs. It is possible, though.

Hmm, last night convinced me this is sooo possible. I am not really an adept WILD'er (only succeeded once...), but when I was goin to sleep last night I nearly succeeded in initiating a dream.
I started by lying stil for some time waiting for my body to shut down, as it started to do so I "grabbed" the first piece of imagery that flashed by and started to develop it. After a minute of so it started to get that "dreamy feeling" and I nearly got it tangible enough to step into.

Howevery my body wss becoming a pain in the ass by starting to tinkle like hell (especially my leggs and feet) so snapped out.

I tried again and supprisingly fast got into the same situation, this time I noticed that when I started thinking "hey I'm doing it!" the dream feeling left as a response to my concious interfearence...

Does anyone know the cause of a tickeling feeling all over your leggs when you attempt anything near WILD or WAILD? i don't feel this when I go to regular sleep...

- Chris

Originally Posted by Shift

All of the claims that NREM sleep is less vivid or about certain things seem to be inaccurate, as the research I've managed to come across all seem to have different ideas

My point was that your WILD can dump you into a state where there is no dream at all. No NREM dream, no REM dream, just sleep. You can maintain consciousness while asleep, even if you are not dreaming at all.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

It will be good practice, but don't get frustrated if you can't get the results you are hoping for. It is more like entering a deep trance than entering a lucid dream. In fact, I've always believed the main difference between deep trance meditation and lucid dreaming is the timing.

I agree with Tornado Joe. You can WILD into NREM dreams, but they are nothing like typical lucid dreams. It is a very weird limbo state. In the Tibetan tradition, you train to hold your awareness throughout the entire night. You stay aware as you slip into and out of REM dreams, NREM dreams, and nothingness. You may want to read up on some Tibetan Dream Yoga excercises.

I can always tell when I end up in this place. Everything goes normal during my WILD, then I just end up in a calm void. It feels like I'm stuck, and just can't enter a dream. Sometimes it is accompanied by a weird loss of ego, or loss of localized consciousness. It is an amazing state in its own right, and something that is the main goal of many types of meditation. You could say it is the base of some entire religions.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man

I had a post about your last paragraph. I had no idea what this state and place was. You're not awake, but you're conscious and you're not dreaming.
I have found my answer, thanks!!

I thought SP always came before REM. If you're trying to WILD into NREM sleep, wouldn't SP be an indication that you're doing a regular WILD? Or is SP just the transition into any type of dream? If that's the case, then how will you know whether you're going into a REM LD or a NREM LD? I heard that when people sleepwalk it's during NREM sleep, because there's no SP so they can move.

A couple nights ago I had a sucessful WILD right when I was going to bed but I believe the reason that it was possible, was that I had about a 2 hour nap at around 6:00pm. I think because of this nap, I may have actually hit a REM.. Or maybe a miracle? Try it sometime!

Chris, I'm in no way shape or form an experienced LD'er or anything of the sort but i've been trying (and failing might I add) the WILD before sleeping. I've almost gotten it quite a few times but my breathing gets all shallow and I start freaking out. I'm willing to join you in this experiment though. I will try to keep letting you know what goes down every day and record my findings on this site somewheres. Would you like to do that here, or in PM or create a new thread? Just let me know and good luck!

It´s possible to dream outside REM, but it´s not as vivid (or that´s what I´ve heard)