Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

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Originally Posted by Thor

No, daydreaming can involve any and all of your senses. And if you think visualization is just a form of thought, then you could say the same thing about seeing.



Of course it's not the same. The difference is that the dream is perceived as real, while the daydream isn't. But to me there is no difference in the number of senses involved, or the level of detail. A thought, as I think of it, is fundamentally different and entirely verbal. On the other hand you can of course have thoughts while being in a dream or a daydream.

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I smell a semantic nit-picking coming on. :D

I have absolutely no idea how you don't consider imagination to be a thought process.

To clarify: imagining something whilst awake whether it involves sight, sound touch, smell or all of the above (i.e. daydreaming) and
actually dreaming of the experience are fundamentally quite different.

The perception of something actually being real is indeed the crucial difference. Which may be why Sleep Paralysis generally takes place during REM sleep.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

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Although some superficial dreams occur during NREM sleep, most real dreams occur during the REM stage of the sleep cycle. There are marked differences between NREM dreams and REM dreams. NREM dreams tend to be anchored in reality and experienced as a semiconscious state of serenity. REM dreams are markedly "bizarre", lacking common sense, logic and often characterized by quick transitions in plot and setting. Often, when a person is awakened from REM sleep, they remember vividly the events of their dreams.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

I smell a semantic nit-picking coming on. :D

I have absolutely no idea how you don't consider imagination to be a thought process.

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Imagination is a "thought process" in the sense that it is a cognitive activity. But when researchers say that NREM dreams are often "thought-like" I don't think they include any and all cognitive activity, otherwise describing dreams as thought-like would be pointless. Rather, the whole point was to distinguish between thought dreams and sensory dreams.

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To clarify: imagining something whilst awake whether it involves sight, sound touch, smell or all of the above (i.e. daydreaming) and
actually dreaming of the experience are fundamentally quite different.

The perception of something actually being real is indeed the crucial difference. Which may be why Sleep Paralysis generally takes place during REM sleep.

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I agree, except for the last sentence, which does not follow logically.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

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That guy doesn't even cite his sources; he just lists a bunch of URLs at the end. If you read recent peer reviewed research papers, you will find that there is no disagreement in the research community that some NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams.

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Originally Posted by Shift

How do you know you were in NREM?

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I never said I did, but, if you wake up in the middle of the night, let's say <1.5h within sleep, it's quite possible to be a NREM cycle. It takes approximately 1.5h to get a REM cycle, so, waking before usually means you wake up in NREM :)

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Originally Posted by moonshine

In point of fact you can. People woken in the lab during NREM do describe something.

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I should have probably rephrased the question differently. From what I've read, people do remember something when awoken from NREM dreams, but, how much do they remember compared to REM dreams? That is what I'm interested in. I woke up a couple of times the last 2-3 nights and I would hazard that at least one to two must have been NREM and although, I do remember that I daydreamed something, I am still at a loss of words what it was. It's very perplexing to almost be able to grasp something, but, it's still out of your grasp :?

As to where I stand in this, I think REM sleep requires SP to prevent the enactment of your dream in RL while you sleep, as for NREM sleep, no SP is required because its similar to a daydream. Whenever I daydream, you can probably incorporate most senses by thinking back to let's say how an apple tasted or the sound it made when you bite it, but, unlike in REM, while are actually acting the dream, in the daydream, you can move but it's really you imagining that you moved, not that you have physically moved. So, if I'm not mistaken, I agree with moonshine on this one :)

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Originally Posted by BigFan

It takes approximately 1.5h to get a REM cycle, so, waking before usually means you wake up in NREM :)

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Not necessarily, which is why I asked.

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Originally Posted by Shift

Not necessarily, which is why I asked.

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Well, it gets shorter as the night goes, but, the general consesus is that at least the first 1.5h is most likely NREM :)

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Originally Posted by BigFan

Well, it gets shorter as the night goes, but, the general consesus is that at least the first 1.5h is most likely NREM :)

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That's because the general consensus is made by people who just read forums written by other people who just read forums. Like I said, not necessarily. It depends on a number of factors.

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Originally Posted by Shift

That's because the general consensus is made by people who just read forums written by other people who just read forums. Like I said, not necessarily. It depends on a number of factors.

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Actually I was going off a psychology class I took where we talked about the stage of dreams, their associated waves(beta, theta, etc....), time and a couple of other interesting information in there. I think it was around 1.5h at the start, but, will have to check :)

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Originally Posted by BigFan

Actually I was going off a psychology class I took where we talked about the stage of dreams, their associated waves(beta, theta, etc....), time and a couple of other interesting information in there. I think it was around 1.5h at the start, but, will have to check :)

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While you're at it look at the effects of napping to eliminate NREM requirements and REM onset sleep :)

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Originally Posted by Thor

Rather, the whole point was to distinguish between thought dreams and sensory dreams.

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So what would you consider a "thought dream"?

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Originally Posted by Thor

That guy doesn't even cite his sources; he just lists a bunch of URLs at the end. If you read recent peer reviewed research papers, you will find that there is no disagreement in the research community that some NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams.

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The URL's being...sources?

I think its fair to say that the "descriptions" of "some" NREM dreams "seem" indistinguishable from REM dreams.

I also note that peer reviewed research papers show that Atonia - or sleep paralysis - does take place outside of REM sleep. It shows a U shaped pattern which peaks before and after REM.

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the present report systematically documents epochs of muscle atonia
in NREM sleep (MAN). Although their most frequent occurrence is in proximity to REM sleep, they are present throughout a NREM sleep episode. This gives rise to a Ushaped pattern. The present observations are in accordance with previous reports that epochs with a low EMG level occur in the part of the NREM sleep that precedes and follows REM sleep (4, 5, 12). These findings indicate that a REM sleep episode is not sharply delimited but that it has antecedents during NREM sleep and that it vanishes gradually in the succeeding NREM sleep episode.

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http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/re...466.2001v1.pdf

It seems that there is no on-off switch between NREM and REM and that there is a transition period.

Which would in my mind fit nicely with how thoughts gradually change to imagery before becoming a encompasing dream. As they do during a WILD.

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Originally Posted by Shift

While you're at it look at the effects of napping to eliminate NREM requirements and REM onset sleep :)

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I would but most of the information about sleeping was from the book, since, we were encouraged to study both notes and the book, because, it was a 40&#37; to 60% weighting on midterms and exam, but, I remembered that I've sold the book already :(

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Originally Posted by moonshine

So what would you consider a "thought dream"?

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A thought dream is a dream that consists of thoughts and reflection, like "I really need to get my car fixed." They are not sensory oriented and don't have a storyline, and they are often dull and repetitive.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

The URL's being...sources?

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That's not how you cite sources. You cite the reference for each sentence, or sometimes each part of a sentence. You don't list a bunch of URLs at the bottom of the article, leaving to the reader to sort out where the heck each particular claim came from. An article like that would never pass peer review in any reputable publication.

But if you have read through all those references, maybe you can tell me where that particular claim came from?

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Originally Posted by Thor

A thought dream is a dream that consists of thoughts and reflection, like "I really need to get my car fixed." They are not sensory oriented and don't have a storyline, and they are often dull and repetitive.

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So a thought dream = thoughts. how is that different from what i said.

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Originally Posted by Thor

That's not how you cite sources. You cite the reference for each sentence, or sometimes each part of a sentence. You don't list a bunch of URLs at the bottom of the article, leaving to the reader to sort out where the heck each particular claim came from. An article like that would never pass peer review in any reputable publication.

But if you have read through all those references, maybe you can tell me where that particular claim came from?

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I'm fully aware that it wasn't a research paper.
But this does not neccesary mean its inaccurate.

Anyhow, any thoughts on the research paper I did link to?

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Originally Posted by moonshine

So a thought dream = thoughts. how is that different from what i said.

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Well, thoughts that you have in your sleep. The point is that thought-like dreams are neither like daydreams or vivid dreams.

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I'm fully aware that it wasn't a research paper.
But this does not neccesary mean its inaccurate.

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Not necessarily, but the advantage of a research paper is that it's written in such a way that it's easy to check facts and methods.

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Anyhow, any thoughts on the research paper I did link to?

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I didn't understand how that paper was supposed to support your contention that NREM dreams are different from REM dreams.

As to their discussion of "atonia" this is not atonia in the sense of the complete blockade of nerve signals that occurs in the brainstem during REM sleep. What they are talking about is atonia in the sense of low muscle tone as measured by EMG. Granted if you have real atonia you will have very low muscle tone, but if you have very low muscle tone, that's not necessarily an indication of real atonia. (Didn't we have this discussion last year?)

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Originally Posted by Thor

Well, thoughts that you have in your sleep. The point is that thought-like dreams are neither like daydreams or vivid dreams.

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Can't take your definition of daydreams seriously I'm afraid.
They're not actually dreams in any way shape or form.
Its simply being lost in though, whether said thoughts include visualisations etc or not.

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Originally Posted by Thor

I didn't understand how that paper was supposed to support your contention that NREM dreams are different from REM dreams.

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I'm suggesting how it may be possible to have REM like dreams in whats technically NREM.
In that transition period. Because in that transition period you do have Atonia, which would prevent you acting out your dreams.
And if its a blurred line between having sleep paralysis and not, then there may well be an equally blurred line between
REM and NREM.


Which still leaves room for the "pure" NREM type dreams that I (and I'm others have experienced) when you feel like you've been awake all night with thoughts racing about in your head.

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Originally Posted by Thor

As to their discussion of "atonia" this is not atonia in the sense of the complete blockade of nerve signals that occurs in the brainstem during REM sleep. What they are talking about is atonia in the sense of low muscle tone as measured by EMG. Granted if you have real atonia you will have very low muscle tone, but if you have very low muscle tone, that's not necessarily an indication of real atonia. (Didn't we have this discussion last year?)

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REM atonia and muscle atonia are essentially one in the same.
The papers stating that the Atonia which takes place during REM sleep also ramps up and ramps down in NREM Sleep.
Thats how I read it anyway.

(Best not to go into last years discussion - wasn't that when you were denying Sleep Paralysis could actually be used in WILD attempts?)

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Originally Posted by moonshine

Can't take your definition of daydreams seriously I'm afraid.
They're not actually dreams in any way shape or form.
Its simply being lost in though, whether said thoughts include visualisations etc or not.

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I didn't say daydreams are dreams. I'm saying they can share a many features of dreams. They can be three-dimensional, involve any and all senses, and have complex storylines. The only feature I can see that makes a daydream different from a vivid dream is that a daydream is imagined, whereas a vivid dream is hallucinated.

But you're right that daydreams can also be simpler, like just being lost in thoughts.

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I'm suggesting how it may be possible to have REM like dreams in whats technically NREM.
In that transition period. Because in that transition period you do have Atonia, which would prevent you acting out your dreams.
And if its a blurred line between having sleep paralysis and not, then there may well be an equally blurred line between
REM and NREM.

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Well, that's conjecture, and it's contradicted by the fact that NREM dream reports indistinguishable from REM dream reports have been obtained as much as 25 minutes after the last REM episode. It is also contradicted by the fact that reports of vivid dreams have been obtained from subjects in deep sleep, and the characteristics of deep sleep are totally different from those of REM sleep, so it would be very hard to confuse them.

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REM atonia and muscle atonia are essentially one in the same.
The papers stating that the Atonia which takes place during REM sleep also ramps up and ramps down in NREM Sleep.
Thats how I read it anyway.

(Best not to go into last years discussion - wasn't that when you were denying Sleep Paralysis could actually be used in WILD attempts?)

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If you don't want a repeat of last years discussion it's not a good idea to insinuate that I said the opposite of what I actually did.

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Originally Posted by Thor

I didn't say daydreams are dreams. I'm saying they can share a many features of dreams. They can be three-dimensional, involve any and all senses, and have complex storylines. The only feature I can see that makes a daydream different from a vivid dream is that a daydream is imagined, whereas a vivid dream is hallucinated.

But you're right that daydreams can also be simpler, like just being lost in thoughts.

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They are three dimensional in so far as we are quite capable of imagining scenes in 3 dimensions. They have complex storylines if we imagine those story lines. Day dreams are manufactured thoughts. Imagination is a thought process. I for one would classify blankly gazing out of the window and imagining what your going to to when you get out of work as being lost in thought.

In any event, its all scemantics and hardly essential to the general discussions.

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Originally Posted by Thor

Well, that's conjecture

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Well Obviously!
But hey man, we're on the bleeding edge here. It would be a boring life indeed if you had to wait for someone to type up a nice report before we could throw ideas around.

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Originally Posted by Thor

and it's contradicted by the fact that NREM dream reports indistinguishable from REM dream reports have been obtained as much as 25 minutes after the last REM episode.

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Shouldn't that be "some" NREM reports are indistinguishable from REM dreams.
By the same token "some" NREM reports are indistinguishable from thinking.

I've offered my thoughts on why this might be the case.
It therefore seems to me that this corroborates my theory rather than contradicts it.

Its going to be a while until we can fit this complex subject into a nice square box I suspect.

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Originally Posted by Thor

If you don't want a repeat of last years discussion it's not a good idea to insinuate that I said the opposite of what I actually did.

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What, last year when you kept repeating that you didn't believe people were entering SP to WILD, despite numerous posters (now including me) describing how they were succesful in doing just that?

BTW The attached article suggests that you can in fact be in Atonia prior to entering REM (didn't you say this wasn't the case?), which it seems to me supports the WILDers experiences.

My theory is shaping up nicely! :D

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported?

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Seems to me that you called it right RB!

Clearly, some NREM dreams are similar to REM dreams, so its a good job that Atonia kicks in outside of REM to prevent us running around in the dark. :D


http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/11/6/671.full

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Foulkes (1985) has argued for the existence of NREM dreaming and against a simple “REM sleep = dreaming” view. By simply changing the question asked of awakened subjects from “Did you dream?” to “Did you experience any mental content?,” Foulkes was able to show a far higher percentage of dream reports from NREM stages than original studies had suggested. These dream reports after NREM awakenings led Foulkes and others to conclude that the stream of consciousness never ceases during sleep and that the brain engages in cognitive activity of some sort during all sleep stages (Antrobus 1990).

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Equally clearly, the above suggests that NREM activity can be more akin to simple thoughts.

looks like the transition from NREM to REM is more of a sliding scale than an on off switch.

My take on it is that science cannot prove that don't dream in non-rem sleep, so I think we do. These dreams are probably much harder to remember based on lower EEG frequencies. Ofcourse if you become lucid during a dream I guess that might bring you up to a rem like stage.

Wow, you guys really must have some time on your hands and must love to duke it out :lol: Anyways, to the OP, I do think it's possible to have an LD in a NREM cycle, but, not sure to the mechanism of this :P

Guys, seriously chill out. Not sure why you are all getting so caught up with something such as this :)

You're right. We did sort of hijack this thread. I'm going to close this and split it back into our old discussion on this topic that started here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67632
And was closed, and then moved here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67732

I don't want to close this to spite anyone, or "have the last word". I think there is good information here, but it might make more sense in the context of our previous discussion. Lets continue, where we already previously agreed to discuss this, here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67732