Ultrasound to induce Lucid Dreams?

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=42266

A group of neuroscientists at Arizona State University has developed pulsed ultrasound techniques that can remotely stimulate brain circuit activity.

Their findings, published in the Oct. 29 issue of the journal Public Library of Science (PLoS) One, provide insights into how low-power ultrasound can be harnessed for the noninvasive neurostimulation of brain circuits.


Heres some more links

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-...e-brain-480595

http://io9.com/5071758/ultrasound-ca...ngs-in-college

Very fascinating. This kinda stuff is probably the future of LDing.

I bet it isn't long before there is a house hold helmet that instantly induces an LD, video game consoles will be a thing of the past.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Very fascinating. This kinda stuff is probably the future of LDing.

I bet it isn't long before there is a house hold helmet that instantly induces an LD, video game consoles will be a thing of the past.

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Nah, probably porn will be a thing of the past but people are going to want video games for the social aspect and interaction. Until you can actually link brains and share dreams, I think there are certain types of people who are going to view it as too individual and anti-social of an experience. Sucks for them, I'd buy like 3 helmets all for myself!

does anyone know how I can get my hand on any low frequency Ultrasound devices?

a hospital? lol

I dunno, seems quite ballsy to me to start screwing with your head like that. I wouldn't do it unless I knew precisely what I was doing, which I don't. I'm cautious about things like this though, I don't even like the idea of binaural beats because I have no idea what they are actually doing or if the person who made it was qualified to screw with my head :tongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shift

a hospital? lol

I dunno, seems quite ballsy to me to start screwing with your head like that. I wouldn't do it unless I knew precisely what I was doing, which I don't. I'm cautious about things like this though, I don't even like the idea of binaural beats because I have no idea what they are actually doing or if the person who made it was qualified to screw with my head :tongue:

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"One prior stumbling block to using ultrasound noninvasively in the brain has been the skull. However, the acoustic frequencies utilized by Tyler and his colleagues to construct their pulsed ultrasound waveforms, overlap with a frequency range where optimal energy gains are achieved between transcranial transmission and brain absorption of ultrasound - which allows the ultrasound to penetrate bone and yet prevent damage to the soft tissues. Their findings are supported by other studies examining the potential of high-intensity focused ultrasound for ablating brain tissues, where it was shown that low-frequency ultrasound could be focused through human skulls."

- http://www.news-medical.net/?id=42266


I doubt that low frequency ultrasound is dangerous, some people already use it with their electric toothbrushes.

Ultrasound is just sound that is higher in frequency than what the human ear can hear.

Dogs, cats and other animals can hear ultrasound.

I realize all these things, I just don't like screwing around with things I don't fully understand. And I'm not talking about soft tissue, more about things like brainwave entrainment and what exactly you're doing to your brain. Since I'd have no idea what I'd be doing, I don't like the idea of arbitrarily using things to mess with it :shock:

I read the study, and it stated that the feasibility of in vivo usage of LILFU as a therapeutic tool is yet to be proven. It seems like they tested a variety of tissues in vitro, and noticed ion/voltage modulation, citing studies that showed ultrasound can be focused beyond the skull, but had not actually tested this technique on human subjects (understandably).

Things may begin to flower in the coming years, however. I've always wanted to look into dream-induction via neurological modulation, but am finding myself limited by economic concerns (the darn economy doesn't appreciate science as much as it used to :roll: ).

This is what im thinking, the reason where not lucid duing dreams is because the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is deactivated during dreams.

The dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is located behind your forehead and its role is sustaining attention and working memory and consciousness

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Ba46.png

If i can find some way to have low intensity low frequency Ultrasound (LILFU) on my forehead while im dreaming. This could possibly become a huge breakthrough in Lucid dream Tech if it works.

But as you pointed out, i lack the resources, by any chance do you know where I could possibly find/buy an Ultrasound thing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shift

Nah, probably porn will be a thing of the past but people are going to want video games for the social aspect and interaction. Until you can actually link brains and share dreams, I think there are certain types of people who are going to view it as too individual and anti-social of an experience. Sucks for them, I'd buy like 3 helmets all for myself!

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Very true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westonci

But as you pointed out, i lack the resources, by any chance do you know where I could possibly find/buy an Ultrasound thing?

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Well the actual study is here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003511

It states the researchers had used "custom built PZT ultrasound transducers" with a diameter of 35mm. I've made intrasonic speakers before (20-20k Hz range) but never anything capable of MHz range. I'd imagine they use some sort of piezoelectric element (perhaps why they are referred to as PZT). They also used a function generator to create square-waves, fed into yet what I can only guess is another function generator to generate pulses (I think they mentioned pulse-length sweeps), and finally fed the resulting signal into an amplifier for the transducer.

Generally these sort of high speed function-generators and amplifiers can be pretty costly, but eBay might a good source for this type of equipment.

The following are the parts they use:

• Agilent 33220A Function Generator
• ENI 240L RF Amplifier

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ailos

Well the actual study is here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0003511

It states the researchers had used "custom built PZT ultrasound transducers" with a diameter of 35mm. I've made intrasonic speakers before (20-20k Hz range) but never anything capable of MHz range. I'd imagine they use some sort of piezoelectric element (perhaps why they are referred to as PZT). They also used a function generator to create square-waves, fed into yet what I can only guess is another function generator to generate pulses (I think they mentioned pulse-length sweeps), and finally fed the resulting signal into an amplifier for the transducer.

Generally these sort of high speed function-generators and amplifiers can be pretty costly, but eBay might a good source for this type of equipment.

The following are the parts they use:

• Agilent 33220A Function Generator
• ENI 240L RF Amplifier

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I just read the study and they say that they used 440–670 KHz ultrasound. They said that low intensity, low frequency Ultrasound (LILFU) was used since both mathematical models and experimental data indicated that the optimal gain between transcranial transmission and brain absorption for Ultrasound is ∼600–700 KHz




"Although numerous intriguing studies examining the influence of US on neuronal activity have been conducted, these previous investigations have implemented high-intensity US, which can destroy nervous tissue. Thus, we decided to investigate the influence of low-intensity ultrasound on neuronal activity. Most of the prior investigations examining the effect of US on neuronal activity also used high-frequency US (>1 MHz; for exceptions see [3], [20], [21]), which has larger attenuation coefficients compared to lower frequency ultrasound. Medical diagnostic US typically operates from 1 to 15 MHz while therapeutic US is usually conducted using acoustic frequencies around 1 MHz [11]. We chose to pursue our investigations here using low-frequency US (0.44–0.67 MHz) since both mathematical models and experimental data indicate the optimal gain between transcranial transmission and brain absorption for US is ∼0.60–0.70 MHz"

Ah, well then a 1Mhz function generator would work nicely.

I found a simple circuit that would cost no more than 10-20 dollars to construct that is capable of 1 Hz - 1 MHz signal generation:
http://electronics-diy.com/electroni...tic.php?id=794

However, finding amplifiers and transducers capable of 600 - 700 KHz is diffuclt and are generally very expensive:
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en...num=1&ct=title

It's too bad they didn't go into detail about how to construct one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ailos

It's too bad they didn't go into detail about how to construct one.

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Im not a tech wiz by a long shot, but do you know what they mean by "remotely" when they say "Remote Excitation of Neuronal Circuits Using Low-Intensity, Low-Frequency Ultrasound"

Did they use a EEG like helmet? A transducer?

Im having trouble visualizing how they actually applied the Ultrasound to a persons head.

Well to my understanding, the ultrasonic transducer (to transduce is to transform energy into another form) transforms the high frequency waveforms (it says "low", but that's a relative term referring to the normal 20-40Mhz ultrasonic range) to physical vibrations. A normal sonic transducer is the simple speaker, using electromagetism to generate physical vibrations.

Electromagnetism has it's limits, though. At high frequencies it tends to get dirty, so as a means to overcome this, ultrasound transducers utilize the piezoelectric effect (essentially vibration of electrically excited crystal).

These physical vibrations have the capacity to flow through tissue, and become focused at certain points (just like sound waves can flow through air). I'm not sure how they focus the waves exactly, but I'm guessing they use a simple parabolic focusing mechanism. So to pass these through the skull, a gel would be applied to the person head, upon which the transducer would be placed. The gel acts as a conduction medium, the same type used in ultrasounds for pregnancies.

The term "remote" in this sense just means non-invasive (invasive techniques include methods like deep brain stimulation, which use electrodes implanted within the brain).

I just read the study from here

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2568804

Ultrasound seems like a really plausible means of activating the brain while asleep.

Someone needs to try it and see what happens

Well it's not as easy as "just trying" it; accurate ultrasonic transduction is difficult to reproduce without the necessary, often expensive, equipment. I've worked with electronics and the like quite a bit myself, and can see some parts being replaced by more simple, cheaper circuits, but other parts (i.e., the transducer) will still cost a few grand.

And to accurately measure what is going on would require a CT or MRI in order to achieve a resolution fine enough to make out small modulations in neurotransmission caused by LILFU.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ailos

Well it's not as easy as "just trying" it; accurate ultrasonic transduction is difficult to reproduce without the necessary, often expensive, equipment. I've worked with electronics and the like quite a bit myself, and can see some parts being replaced by more simple, cheaper circuits, but other parts (i.e., the transducer) will still cost a few grand.

And to accurately measure what is going on would require a CT or MRI in order to achieve a resolution fine enough to make out small modulations in neurotransmission caused by LILFU.

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I think we just need a transducer, and just zap it at our foreheads. lol

http://www.parsonicscorp.com/

http://cgi.ebay.ca/HP-21200B-2-5MHz-...3286.m20.l1116

Haha, well if you wanna shell out that kind of money, be my guest. I'm just as interested as anyone else =]

I found a website that makes custom Ultrasonic Transdcucers. Check it out

http://www.piezotechnologies.com/dow...FQJNagodIlsc4A

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ailos

Haha, well if you wanna shell out that kind of money, be my guest. I'm just as interested as anyone else =]

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Hey Ailos, sorry to bother you but what does low intensity "pulsed" ultrasound mean?

Secondly, is "pulsed" ultrasound what hey used in the experiment?

Pulsed refers to the length of time the ultrasound was active. I believe in this experiment the pulse was the length of mere milliseconds, or less, but it should specify the length in the study. So the ultrasonic frequency has nothing to do with the pulse length. This is important since the focused vibrations generate heat, and consequently can damage tissue if it becomes exposed for too long (higher ultrasonic frequencies and higher amplitudes [power] are actually used to destroy tissues within the body).

I'm thinking the effects of neural excitation had lasted longer than the actual pulse length, but how long this latent effect lasted I'm not clear on.

And I do believe I read that they had, in fact, used pulsed ultrasound at a variety of pulse lengths.

Ive read the study man time over and from what Ive read the Ultrasonic Transducers had the following Properties.

Frequency: 0.44 MHz
Tone Burst Duration (TBD): 22.7 microseconds
Cycles per tone-burst (c/tb): 10
Pulse Repetition Frequency (PRF): 0-100Hz linear sweep over a 5 second period
Number of tone burst per stimulus (Ntb): 250
P-P Square Wave amplitude: 500 mV

Im having trouble understanding the last three, can you help explain what they mean/refer to.

Thanks Ailos

Good job finding that.

Yeah, the last three:

"Pulse Repetition Frequency" refers to how many pulses (of length 22.7 microseconds, with a tonal frequency of .44Mhz) there are per second. The 0-100Hz linear sweep means that this repetition frequency "sweeps", or increases linearly, from 0 Hz to 100 Hz over the period of 5 seconds.

"Number of tone bursts per stimulus" refers to how many pulses (of length 22.7 microseconds, with a tonal frequency of .44Mhz) occur over the 5-second repetition frequency sweep.

The P-P Square Wave amplitude is how "big" the square wave is (a square wave is basically on-off-on-off with little to no in-between, unlike a sine-wave which is gradual in its gain and loss). The P-P is peak to peak I believe, meaning that the lower peak (trough) is 500mV less than the upper peak (crest).

Hope that helps!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ailos

Good job finding that.

Yeah, the last three:

"Pulse Repetition Frequency" refers to how many pulses (of length 22.7 microseconds, with a tonal frequency of .44Mhz) there are per second. The 0-100Hz linear sweep means that this repetition frequency "sweeps", or increases linearly, from 0 Hz to 100 Hz over the period of 5 seconds.

"Number of tone bursts per stimulus" refers to how many pulses (of length 22.7 microseconds, with a tonal frequency of .44Mhz) occur over the 5-second repetition frequency sweep.

The P-P Square Wave amplitude is how "big" the square wave is (a square wave is basically on-off-on-off with little to no in-between, unlike a sine-wave which is gradual in its gain and loss). The P-P is peak to peak I believe, meaning that the lower peak (trough) is 500mV less than the upper peak (crest).


Hope that helps!

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Thanks a lot Ailos.

So they where using a square waves and not sine wave?

Can ultrasonic transducers produce sqare waves or do we have to modify it or build a custom one?

The waveform isn't produced by the transducer, whether it be square, sine, or triangle.

Electrical waveforms are generally generated by circuits called "function generators", the simplest being made with the 555 chip (which produces square waves at a maximum frequency of around .16 Mhz). The function generator that these scientists used was a bit more expensive than a 15 cent 555 chip, but it had far more options than were needed. You can make a 1 Mhz function generator for cheap (see one of my previous posts for a link).

The waveforms are likely fed to a high-frequency power transistor as to prevent damage to the function generator from too much current draw. However, since the one they used was one of the more fancy models, it may have included higher power levels.

Anyways, the waveform then goes to the transducer, where it is transduced into mechanical energy. Square waves are used with piezoelectric elements because they function better under on-off waveforms as opposed to those with varying levels of amplitude (which is why you don't use them for computer speakers or headphones).

As far as the transducer goes, as long as it can handle the required frequency, it doesn't have any effect on the waveform that is fed to it.

This may seem like a ridiculously stupid question, but can i use an ultrasonic toothbrushes instead of having to buy a custom ultrasonic transducer alone.

The Ultrasonex Ultrasonic Toothbrush works at 1.6 MHz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ1IB7QY80c

Is there anything wrong with using a Ultrasonic Toothbrush vs a custom Ultrasonic Transducer?

Thanks

Well the main problems I see you facing are that you will be unable to control the directionality of the mechanical vibrations. Toothbrushes tend to be from side-to-side as opposed to longitudinal vibration. You will also have trouble accurately controling the frequency, since the toothbrush will have a proprietary circuit to interface with the transduction mechanism (which I'm unsure if it is piezoelectric or electromagnetic).

But you may be able to get something useful out of it. It seems like a useful cheap alternative. If you believe you can produce any results (whether they be negative or positive), I say why not, go for it.

Ok, I managed to find out that 0.5 Mhz seems to be the closest industry standard center frequency. This means that almost any such transducer (regardless of waveform bandwidth) will hit at least 0.6 mhz with 50% of power and in some cases can hit 0.7 mhz maybe with 75% of power.

It seems according to this research that shear waves work best:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18065841
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15058357

But I'm not sure do they need a certain type of transducer. I understand this to mean that shear and longitudal waves can come from the same source:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17941383

Quote:

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Shear and longitudinal waves in the maxilla bone were produced by adjusting the bone surface incident angle to 45 degrees and 0 degrees, respectively.

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Some possible google words for finding parts

0.5 mhz
ultrasound
ultrasonic
transducer
PZT
piezoelectric
contact
shear wave

I found that the most affordable and easiest way to implement this experiemnt is with an Ultrasonic Massager

Heres an example

http://cgi.ebay.com/Portable-Profess...ayphotohosting


Power Source AC Adaptor (DC 24V/200mA)
Output Frequency 1.0 MHz +-10%
Type Non focusing
Pulse Width 5.4ms +-10%
Repetition Rate 150Hz +-10%
Waveform Pulse
Temporal Maximum Power 8W +-10%
Temporal maximum effective intensity 1.13W/cm2 +- 10%
Effective maximum temporal intensity/
Effective average effective intensity 1.13 / 0.65 = 1.738 +- 10%
ERA 7.06 cm2 +- 5%
BNR 1.74
Output Intensity Low 1.6W (0.11 W/cm2)
Medium 2.6W (0.24 W/cm2)
High 4.6W (0.47 W/cm2)
Duty Cycle Low 7% ,Med 15%, Hi 30%
Auto-time setting 30 minutes auto-off +-1%
Dimensions 172(L) x 54(W) x 42(H) mm
Weight of unit 120 g
Warranty 6 months

You can't say that before you have tried it and know that it works. We need to be responsible here because you never know if some kids start ordering these by the dozen and end up wrecking their brains.

It may very well work for general brain stimulation purposes even when it's pretty much off the mark for the more effective frequencies (0.5 should work much better than 1.0 even when there's not much difference in how close they are to 0.6-0.7 - I base this on a figure I saw in one of the above studies) However, we don't know if they use longitudal or shear waves, etc.

Because of the low power levels, it might very well be safe, if the studies are any indication (biggest power level used was 0.5 mW/cm2 which corresponds to the HIGH power level of that device).

Also this is non-focusing so it can't be used to stimulate certain part deep into the brain. Someone should find out what is the degree of the beam.

Also westonsci, I'm pretty sure that lucid dreaming is much more complicated matter than either having a part of the frontal cortex active or not.

And besides, you need to first have a version that can focus. In the end, if there was a certain mechanism to induce LD's, you'd need a helmet and a system that stimulates only key areas in a certain way with certain timing. That's way beyond. Don't hold your breath.

Right now Im just trying to prove that this concept works, I will need an assistant most likely my brother who will stand on the side of my bed and when he sees my eye lids flickering he will know that im dreaming. Then he should put the ultrasonic massages over my upper forehead an will see what happens.

Im not sure if this will work, but I have no doubt that the reason why where not lucid is because the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is deactivated in NREM and fails to reactivate in REM.

Read this article/study that explains that the self-awareness experienced in waking and its loss in dreaming is the result of the deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

http://www.bostonneuropsa.org/PDF%20...ET_AL.__02.pdf

Heres some of the important points in the article.

"The differences between the self-awareness experienced in waking and its diminution in dreaming can be explained by deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex during REM sleep. Here,we propose that this deactivation results from a direct inhibition of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortical neurons by acetylcholine, the release of which is enhanced during REM sleep."

Page 1

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"As a consequence of deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC) during sleep, executive functions such as self-consciousness and analytical thought are severely impaired in NREM sleep and are weak in REM sleep."

Page 1

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"In summary, the changes associated with the transition from waking to NREM sleep might be ascribed to a globally reduced level of activity. This is
followed by the selective reactivation of the most posterior and medial prefrontal areas and continued deactivation of anterior and lateral portions at the onset of REM sleep."

Page 1

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"The transition from waking to NREM is characterized by frontal deactivation as reported in positron emission tomography (PET) studies using either H2[15O] [15,16] or 18F deoxyglucose (18FDG) [17] and quantitative EEG studies[18–20]. Deactivation increases with the deepening of NREM sleep [14] and is maintained in the transition from NREM to REM sleep [21]. However, with the onset of REM sleep, portions of the ventromedial, limbic-related prefrontal cortex and closely associated medial subcortex and cortex are reactivated, sometimes to levels that exceed those of waking [22].

For example, in a H2[15O] PET study that specifically compares REM with NREM sleep, the prefrontal areas reactivated during REM include anterior cingulate (BA 32), caudal orbital and medial prefrontal (BA 10) cortices [13], but the DLPFC remained deactivated. Nofzinger et al. [23] have termed this frontal area the ‘anterior paralimbic REM activation area’ with the core structures being subgenual and pregenual anterior cingulate cortex, the amygdala and the insula."

Page 2

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"At the beginning of the REM phase, however, activation of the acetylcholine system, starting from the pontine reticular formation, provokes a general increase in cortical activity [26]. We propose that the DLPFC remains relatively deactivated in REM sleep because it is directly inhibited by acetylcholine. Findings supporting this include a functional magnetic resonance study showing that acetylcholine-mediated enhancement
increased the activity of extrastriate cortex but decreased the activity of the anterior prefrontal cortex [27].

Page 5

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"Taken together, these results indicate that the forebrain activation and synthesis processes that underlie dreaming, with selective activation
of the subcortical and cortical limbic structures (which mediate emotion) and relative inactivation of the DLPFC (which mediates directed thought), are very different from those during waking"

Page 5

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"In this review, we have advanced the idea that the deactivation of the prefrontal cortex during REM sleep is the result of direct acetylcholine-mediated inhibition of this cortical region. According to our proposal, cholinergic pathways are responsible for the reactivation in REM sleep of the prefrontal limbic cortex, but not of the DLPFC, thus depriving dream mentation of logical reasoning capacities."

Page 6

Quote:

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Originally Posted by visor

Also this is non-focusing so it can't be used to stimulate certain part deep into the brain. Someone should find out what is the degree of the beam.

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The dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is situated in the dorsal anterior portions of the prefrontal cortex is very close to the skull. Heres some pictures.

http://www.shockmd.com/wp-content/do...al-cortex1.jpg

http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/LatMedPFC.png

http://www.myoops.org/twocw/mit/NR/r...rain_mri_1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Ba46.png

http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home...s/image004.jpg

http://www.premier-outlook.com/summe...figure_2.2.gif

http://hawaii.sys.i.kyoto-u.ac.jp/home/research/brain

http://www.thedoctorweighsin.com/sto...318_598_F2.gif


http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/moral_brain.gif
Yellow = Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex

Heres a cross section of a human skull so that we can see where we should apply the ultrasound so that we can activate the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1313/...99221e3e03.jpg

Heres some pictures of a popular Ultrasonic Massagers the US-1000 2nd Edition Portable Ultrasound. However according to some websites its FDA regulated, so can an average person buy it? or do i need a prescription to buy it? You can find it on Ebay for around $100

The problem is im attending college right now so im strapped for cash, so now i really need to get a job :roll:

http://www.healiohealth.com/images/p...-Machine-b.jpg

http://www.healiohealth.com/images/p...-Machine-1.jpg

http://healthinfousa.com/ebaylisting/us1000.jpg

http://healthinfousa.com/ebaylisting/us1000use.jpg

Power Source: AC Adaptor (DC 24V/200mA)
Output Frequency: 1.0 MHz +-10%
Type: Non focusing
Pulse Width: 5.4ms +-10%
Repetition Rate: 150Hz +-10%
Waveform: Pulse
Temporal Maximum Power: 8W +-10%
Temporal maximum effective intensity: 1.13W/cm2 +- 10%
Effective maximum temporal intensity/Effective average effective intensity: 1.13 / 0.65 = 1.738 +- 10%
ERA: 7.06 cm2 +- 5%
BNR: 1.74
Output Intensity: Low 1.6W (0.11 W/cm2)
Medium 2.6W (0.24 W/cm2)
High 4.6W (0.47 W/cm2)
Duty Cycle: Low 7% ,Med 15%, Hi 30%
Auto-time setting: 30 minutes auto-off +-1%
Dimensions: 172(L) x 54(W) x 42(H) mm
Weight of unit: 120 g
Warranty: 6 months

First, did you check out my eBay deal? That's an ebay number you see... YOu can get a 1 mhz gadget with $30 + $5 shipping. Surely you can afford that. The seller doesn't offer specifications like this US1000 model. But I doubt if those are exactly optimal either so you might just as well go with the cheapest.

Regarding the study you quoted, let me tell you that I had a 6 month phase during which I ate and drank abstracts. But because I was too convinced I would find what I look for, I went on and on despite no results.

I presume there are no studies relating lucid dreaming to the activity of DLPFC. EVEN IF THERE WERE, it would still be possible that you could never use ultrasound exactly the right way to active it. And that is if you had a system that can focus. You don't. I don't know how to do it. It may not be difficult, but just using the US1000 won't do it. It will almost certainly activate other areas as well, probably too much.

edit: ok, it seems that the ebay number I referred to never posted here. So here it is again

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ultrasonic-Facia...3A1|240%3A1318

$31 including shipping. You'll have to buy the ultrasound gel somewhere else.

I wouldn't jump the boat and buy this immediately.

You would still have to purchase/build a function generator to drive the transducer, and have the knowledge to to take apart and modify the proprietary mechanisms in the massager to allow it to interface with the function generator. You also will need to figure out the power output of this transducer; it won't be enough just to know the frequency or voltage. The decibel output will be important in mirroring the study.

Be careful; overexposure to higher-energy ultrasound can damage, burn, or even scar tissue below the surface.

Replicating the study is one thing, brain cells getting stimulation is another. 1 mhz stimulation might have some effects and I'm interested in that.

The highest amount of energy /cm2 in these have been 0.9 W/cm2 that I've seen. 0.5W/cm2 has been proven to have no immediate negative effects to tissue. Usually every machine has a mode that provides less than that.

The worst thing that can happen, I believe (based on experimenting with infrared on my brain for the last 4 years with no side effects) that instead of stimulation, you will get the opposite, slowing down of potentials. By the time a person with a relatively stable mind notices what's going on, they stop and the brain will probably jump back after a while. So for an experiment, it should be safe. A lot safer than doing psychedelics for example.

This of course means that the time used per day is reasonable. Probably along the lines of minutes, not hours a day.

re: side effects

I did have a period of 4-6 months were I experienced great mood shifts and childhood flashbacks and associated feelings (like rage or fear or sadness). If you are in the midst of something important in the external world, like upcoming exams or a demanding job where you can't take sick leave, proceed extra carefully.

The same may happen with ultrasound. At least in my case the end result was very positive. It helped with Asperger's syndrome, depression and anxiety. It changed me completely as a person. I still have my problems but much less : )

The US1000 Westonsci uses pulse width of 5.4 ms. That is equal to 5400 microseconds. The longest pulse used in the study was 227 microseconds. So there's an enormous difference.

Also 150 hz pulse rate was not used in the study. Most experiments with pulsing parameters used a sweeping pulse rate. 2/3 of the experiments that used 500 mV (large square wave) and a fixed pulse rate, failed. That doesn't mean 150 hz can't work.

I agree that the Ultrasonic massager is very different from the actual setup they used in the study, but I believe that theres a good chance of actually working.

From all the techniques and methods to induce lucidity on the web, so far Ive yet to see anyone try a method like this.

I believe that this is either gonna be a complete success or a total failure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by visor

The US1000 Westonsci uses pulse width of 5.4 ms. That is equal to 5400 microseconds. The longest pulse used in the study was 227 microseconds. So there's an enormous difference.

Also 150 hz pulse rate was not used in the study. Most experiments with pulsing parameters used a sweeping pulse rate. 2/3 of the experiments that used 500 mV (large square wave) and a fixed pulse rate, failed. That doesn't mean 150 hz can't work.

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They also used a pulse length of 74.5 millisecond with positive results.

You can find the table of frequencys, pulse length, etc on the link below, just click "supporting Information" on the right side of the page, and than click on "Table S1"

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0003511

Even if it works, the reason is unlikely going to be what you thought of above.

FWIW, I had very vivid dreams for some time after beginning infrared. In them, when I witnessed some abuse towards myself, I was able to forgive those people or I saw people asking me for forgiveness and I had no trouble giving it. However, that lasted only for some time. Later I have had normal dreams.

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Originally Posted by visor

The US1000 Westonsci uses pulse width of 5.4 ms. That is equal to 5400 microseconds. The longest pulse used in the study was 227 microseconds. So there's an enormous difference.

Also 150 hz pulse rate was not used in the study. Most experiments with pulsing parameters used a sweeping pulse rate. 2/3 of the experiments that used 500 mV (large square wave) and a fixed pulse rate, failed. That doesn't mean 150 hz can't work.

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This pulse width is likely determined by the ultrasonic driver, which you could, in theory, replace with your own circuit. Just a thought.

Westonsci, yes they used 74.5 ms but I didn't include it because it was the only that also used pulse size of 100-150 mV and one of the rare ones that used 10 hz pulse rate.

At 1 mhz the parameters that work might be completely different. In effect, the data is useless at 1 mhz.

Ailos: I don't see how that could be practical. Change the driver, change the piezo plate, what is there left of the original? : ) Changing the plate could be the most feasible mod, if someone could find a 0.5 mhz one.

I checked the figure again and didn't realize that the figures are totally not in my favour. See this:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F9

The transmission of 1 mhz signal is 10^-1 compared to the 0.6 mhz signal. That means that it's just 10%.

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Originally Posted by visor

I checked the figure again and didn't realize that the figures are totally not in my favour. See this:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F9

The transmission of 1 mhz signal is 10^-1 compared to the 0.6 mhz signal. That means that it's just 10%.

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huh? im confused 10% of what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by visor

I checked the figure again and didn't realize that the figures are totally not in my favour. See this:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F9

The transmission of 1 mhz signal is 10^-1 compared to the 0.6 mhz signal. That means that it's just 10%.

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http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...&artid=1560343

I think I found the study where you got that table from. According to the study the optimal frequency for transcranial transmission and absorption is 0.6 MHz - 0.7MHz

So 1 MHz might be of the ball, but do you think it will completely stop the ultrasonic pulses or just make it harder to get through the skull?

If you consider that on a typical 1 mhz machine the highest transmitted power is 0.5W /cm2 and so 10% of that is just 50mW/cm2 and that the pulse width, repetition rate, everything, isn't (probably) anywhere near optimal, I would say that if you're lucky, you will get some effects from it.

But I'm going for the 0.5 Mhz. Even with that, it's a gamble. But since you're short on cash, wait till I tell if it works.

The cheapest I could find one is here: $148 + shipping.

http://www.maxnature.com/ulth.html

I really dislike selling stuff on ebay or elsewhere, I really hope it works.

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Originally Posted by visor

I really hope it works.

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If it does, you guys could be onto something big. Maybe they'll post it on some scientific journal or something.

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Originally Posted by visor

Replicating the study is one thing, brain cells getting stimulation is another. 1 mhz stimulation might have some effects and I'm interested in that.

The highest amount of energy /cm2 in these have been 0.9 W/cm2 that I've seen. 0.5W/cm2 has been proven to have no immediate negative effects to tissue. Usually every machine has a mode that provides less than that.

The worst thing that can happen, I believe (based on experimenting with infrared on my brain for the last 4 years with no side effects) that instead of stimulation, you will get the opposite, slowing down of potentials. By the time a person with a relatively stable mind notices what's going on, they stop and the brain will probably jump back after a while. So for an experiment, it should be safe. A lot safer than doing psychedelics for example.

This of course means that the time used per day is reasonable. Probably along the lines of minutes, not hours a day.

re: side effects

I did have a period of 4-6 months were I experienced great mood shifts and childhood flashbacks and associated feelings (like rage or fear or sadness). If you are in the midst of something important in the external world, like upcoming exams or a demanding job where you can't take sick leave, proceed extra carefully.

The same may happen with ultrasound. At least in my case the end result was very positive. It helped with Asperger's syndrome, depression and anxiety. It changed me completely as a person. I still have my problems but much less : )

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http://www.medscape.com/content/2003...64003.fig1.jpg

Doctors have been using High frequency ultrasound through human skulls for a while now, its called "Transcranial Doppler" or "Transcranial Doppler Ultrasonography"

Basically Transcranial Doppler ultrasonography is a noninvasive method of analyzing blood flow in the brain.

Theres many links to Transcranial doppler.

Heres just a few links:

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz...sonography.jsp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_doppler

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_2601001384


Transcranial Doppler (TCD) is done with either one or two probes placed against the skin. The examiner spreads a clear gel on the areas of the head where the probe will be placed. Usually, the probes are placed on the temple, on the base of the skull at the back of the neck, and over the closed eyelid. In these places, there is the least amount of thick protective bone and the sound waves can penetrate the best.

Because the bones of the skull block the transmission of ultrasound, regions with thinner walls - insonation windows - must be used for analyzing. For this reason, recording is performed in the temporal region above the cheekbone/zygomatic arch, through the eyes, below the jaw, and from the back of the head.

Transcranial doppler uses High Frequency Ultrasound. Heres some infro I found from a company selling Transcnial Doppler Machines.

The Transcranial Module (2MHz pulsed wave) allows to assess the hemodynamic characterisitcs of the major cerebral arteries (blood flow velocity, direction of flow, collateral patterns and state of vasoreactivity).

The Peripheral Module (4 MHz and 8 MHz continous Waves) allows to examine the vessels supplying the brain as well as peripheral veins and arteries.


Im very interested to see how this will turn out.

so high frequency ultrasound can pass through the skull?

According to that, it might, but why take risks of using higher power? I mean, it's your brain and it's not like you're saving more than 100 bucks...

Also it might not be possible to stimulate the whole brain from a few small 'holes' which can be dangerous (I have personal experience).

And in reply to 'this might make a scientific article', well, who knows.

Oh and btw, why on earth aren't there ultrasound imaging that uses less than 2 mhz waves? Are they that in-the-box thinkers??

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Originally Posted by visor

According to that, it might, but why take risks of using higher power? I mean, it's your brain and it's not like you're saving more than 100 bucks...

Also it might not be possible to stimulate the whole brain from a few small 'holes' which can be dangerous (I have personal experience).

And in reply to 'this might make a scientific article', well, who knows.

Oh and btw, why on earth aren't there ultrasound imaging that uses less than 2 mhz waves? Are they that in-the-box thinkers??

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Hey Visor I have a question the US-1000 second edition says it can do 1MHz + - 10%.

So does that mean it can do 900 KHz?

http://www.healiohealth.com/tek9.asp...cific=jplnerd0

That's how I understand it but I would first ask of them.

WARNING ABOUT INFRARED (or ultrasound for that matter)

First off, I've had a reason to feel fine about using infrared. My MRI scan after 2,5 years of use has been seen by 2 doctors, one of them an acquitance and they could see nothing in them.

However, this doesn't translate into it been safe to use for the next 20 years. I've read that even premature, sudden death might be possible.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=32

Before you try infrared or ultrasound on your brain, read this page entirely, especially Daedalus's comments as he's the one with expertise with cellular biology. He has said that it is unlikely that the effects of infrared be beneficial on the whole. Or that little might be but not the amounts to get significant effects with alzheimer.

There is, I think, somewhat more data on ultrasound than infrared on neurons, but no data on chronic use. The cellular mechanisms by which ultrasound might stimulate the brain are probably going to be different and they might be more tolerant of outside manipulation but we don't know.

So, if you must experiment (as in you're curious about the effects), be very careful, low doses and time (the complicating factor is, while we have an idea of the first, we have even less of the latter).

If you have a condition that might benefit from a brain working better, I suggest participating (if you can) in the gathering of information of the possible damage mechanisms and how it shows in a brain scan or finding people to design us a device for brain imaging done at home (because MRI's done every 2 years or so is pretty expensive).

If you want to forego that, and use the thing, remember that it may not be all that different from using any hard stimulant daily, although with slower tolerance developing. I haven't looked but I think there should be enough data that too much stimulants wear the brain out. While that might not, to be exact, be the mechanism here (more like the heightened ATP causing a chain reaction that when continued long enough, results in apoptosis=cell death), the end result could be the same. No functional brain left or death.

Especially alarming is Daedalu's thought that if you don't take brain scans, you might not notice anything until the whole system collapses.

i plan to use the ultrasound on my forehead for 30 seconds. but thanks for the head up

Indeed in the study by Arizona state University they said

"Few studies have examined the effects of chronic US administration on brain function. We found that chronic LILFU stimulation (36–48 h) did not alter the fine structure of neuronal membranes. Demonstrating the need for caution however, a recent study reported that repeated US exposure is capable of producing some disruption of neuronal migration in the cortex of developing mouse embryos"

30 seconds? What if nothing happens in that time? It's a slippery slope...

That study on mouse embryos is commented in the wiki for ultrasound sonography to make it not seem so bad.

I'm looking into software analysis of MRI pictures. MRI costs $1000 where I live, I don't think that's too much.

Day 2 with ultrasound. Daily dose 2 minutes for now.

Last night before sleep in bed I experienced a kind of vocal tension release that otherwise is fairly rare for me. It was daily when I first began infrared.

If I'm to believe Sonotech's sales pitch, using the right type of gel is important. I had been thinking of making my own and I know that gel ingredients are available on the net but since the price isn't too bad ($22.50 for 5 litres), maybe I should just buy it ready made.

Although the downside is that if I try to irradiate my whole head, it will take a lot of gel. I'll concentrate on just the forehead in the beginning as there are no hairs to further reduce effect (I did shave my head already). So if I find out this does work, then I'll order the gel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by visor

Day 2 with ultrasound. Daily dose 2 minutes for now.

Last night before sleep in bed I experienced a kind of vocal tension release that otherwise is fairly rare for me. It was daily when I first began infrared.

If I'm to believe Sonotech's sales pitch, using the right type of gel is important. I had been thinking of making my own and I know that gel ingredients are available on the net but since the price isn't too bad ($22.50 for 5 litres), maybe I should just buy it ready made.

Although the downside is that if I try to irradiate my whole head, it will take a lot of gel. I'll concentrate on just the forehead in the beginning as there are no hairs to further reduce effect (I did shave my head already). So if I find out this does work, then I'll order the gel.

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Im confused how are you gonna put the ultrasound on your forehead while your dreaming?

You'll need an assistant that will be able to see your eyelids moving so that he/she knows your dreaming.

Then he/she will put the ultrasonic massager on your forehead without waking you up.

I wish it was a one man operation :P

You forgot that I already made pretty clear that this massager is, if at all, going to work for general brain stimulation only -> forget real-time stimulation of a specific part of the brain or stuff like that. That's only my somewhat educated guess, of course. But, if I lived near you and we could arrange an experiment, I would be willing to bet money on your experiment not working out in a reliable way.

It appears this board does not support editing of just a little bit old messages. To continue viewing what happens to me on ultrasound, click:

http://www.abolitionist-society.com/...hp?p=6703#6703

the link seems to be down

It works for me, still problems?

Btw sorry if I appear negative but I'm just trying to save your money & time.

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Originally Posted by visor

It works for me, still problems?

Btw sorry if I appear negative but I'm just trying to save your money & time.

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Thanks visor, and the link is good now.

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Originally Posted by westonci

I discovered the fact that ultrasound massagers might work. I ordered one with 0.5 mhz operative frequency, close to the 0.6-0.7 mhz best for skull penetration. I don't know the power level of it, but I presume it is the same as pretty much other massagers, less than 0.5 W/cm2.

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hey visor can you give me a link to the website where you bought your 0.5MHz massager

thanks

I'm telling you, don't buy one. I'm getting rid of mine. If you absolute must try it, then ok, I can sell you mine. But I'm telling you that a) either you will get no benefits or b) your brain will get a bit damaged in the process. Not worth it.

We'll have to search for the parts and make our own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by visor

I'm telling you, don't buy one. I'm getting rid of mine. If you absolute must try it, then ok, I can sell you mine. But I'm telling you that a) either you will get no benefits or b) your brain will get a bit damaged in the process. Not worth it.

We'll have to search for the parts and make our own.

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Thanks for the heads up, but I still want to experiment.

I'll be glad to purchase the ultrasonic massager from you.

Looking this device up to be triggered by a NovaDreamer or similar contraption is pretty easy (a question of soldering wires onto the Novadreamer's LED pins and using the power surge when they turn on to activate the ultrasound). That may enhance the accuracy of the experiment somewhat.

So i finally bought an ultrasonic facial Massager. It operates at 1Mhz and and has pulsed and continous wave profiles, and comes in three power levels.

I have two questions.

1. Is a coupling gel required for the ultrasound to transmit through my body?

2. How can I focus the ultrasound? Do I need to do use phased array of multiple ultrasonic massagers to target the ultrasound?

I have followed the link that you have post, and I have found out the ultrasound that you have said. It is really nice and it is working. But before moving on to controlling your dreams, you should help yourself on staying lucid once you become lucid in your dreams.