Thread: Ultrasound to induce Lucid Dreams?

Originally Posted by westonci

But as you pointed out, i lack the resources, by any chance do you know where I could possibly find/buy an Ultrasound thing?

Well the actual study is here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003511

It states the researchers had used "custom built PZT ultrasound transducers" with a diameter of 35mm. I've made intrasonic speakers before (20-20k Hz range) but never anything capable of MHz range. I'd imagine they use some sort of piezoelectric element (perhaps why they are referred to as PZT). They also used a function generator to create square-waves, fed into yet what I can only guess is another function generator to generate pulses (I think they mentioned pulse-length sweeps), and finally fed the resulting signal into an amplifier for the transducer.

Generally these sort of high speed function-generators and amplifiers can be pretty costly, but eBay might a good source for this type of equipment.

The following are the parts they use:

• Agilent 33220A Function Generator
• ENI 240L RF Amplifier

Originally Posted by Ailos

Well the actual study is here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0003511

It states the researchers had used "custom built PZT ultrasound transducers" with a diameter of 35mm. I've made intrasonic speakers before (20-20k Hz range) but never anything capable of MHz range. I'd imagine they use some sort of piezoelectric element (perhaps why they are referred to as PZT). They also used a function generator to create square-waves, fed into yet what I can only guess is another function generator to generate pulses (I think they mentioned pulse-length sweeps), and finally fed the resulting signal into an amplifier for the transducer.

Generally these sort of high speed function-generators and amplifiers can be pretty costly, but eBay might a good source for this type of equipment.

The following are the parts they use:

• Agilent 33220A Function Generator
• ENI 240L RF Amplifier

I just read the study and they say that they used 440–670 KHz ultrasound. They said that low intensity, low frequency Ultrasound (LILFU) was used since both mathematical models and experimental data indicated that the optimal gain between transcranial transmission and brain absorption for Ultrasound is ∼600–700 KHz




"Although numerous intriguing studies examining the influence of US on neuronal activity have been conducted, these previous investigations have implemented high-intensity US, which can destroy nervous tissue. Thus, we decided to investigate the influence of low-intensity ultrasound on neuronal activity. Most of the prior investigations examining the effect of US on neuronal activity also used high-frequency US (>1 MHz; for exceptions see [3], [20], [21]), which has larger attenuation coefficients compared to lower frequency ultrasound. Medical diagnostic US typically operates from 1 to 15 MHz while therapeutic US is usually conducted using acoustic frequencies around 1 MHz [11]. We chose to pursue our investigations here using low-frequency US (0.44–0.67 MHz) since both mathematical models and experimental data indicate the optimal gain between transcranial transmission and brain absorption for US is ∼0.60–0.70 MHz"

Ah, well then a 1Mhz function generator would work nicely.

I found a simple circuit that would cost no more than 10-20 dollars to construct that is capable of 1 Hz - 1 MHz signal generation:
http://electronics-diy.com/electroni...tic.php?id=794

However, finding amplifiers and transducers capable of 600 - 700 KHz is diffuclt and are generally very expensive:
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&hs=lu6&q=ultrasound+transducer&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

It's too bad they didn't go into detail about how to construct one.

Originally Posted by Ailos

It's too bad they didn't go into detail about how to construct one.

Im not a tech wiz by a long shot, but do you know what they mean by "remotely" when they say "Remote Excitation of Neuronal Circuits Using Low-Intensity, Low-Frequency Ultrasound"

Did they use a EEG like helmet? A transducer?

Im having trouble visualizing how they actually applied the Ultrasound to a persons head.

Well to my understanding, the ultrasonic transducer (to transduce is to transform energy into another form) transforms the high frequency waveforms (it says "low", but that's a relative term referring to the normal 20-40Mhz ultrasonic range) to physical vibrations. A normal sonic transducer is the simple speaker, using electromagetism to generate physical vibrations.

Electromagnetism has it's limits, though. At high frequencies it tends to get dirty, so as a means to overcome this, ultrasound transducers utilize the piezoelectric effect (essentially vibration of electrically excited crystal).

These physical vibrations have the capacity to flow through tissue, and become focused at certain points (just like sound waves can flow through air). I'm not sure how they focus the waves exactly, but I'm guessing they use a simple parabolic focusing mechanism. So to pass these through the skull, a gel would be applied to the person head, upon which the transducer would be placed. The gel acts as a conduction medium, the same type used in ultrasounds for pregnancies.

The term "remote" in this sense just means non-invasive (invasive techniques include methods like deep brain stimulation, which use electrodes implanted within the brain).

I just read the study from here

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2568804

Ultrasound seems like a really plausible means of activating the brain while asleep.

Someone needs to try it and see what happens

Well it's not as easy as "just trying" it; accurate ultrasonic transduction is difficult to reproduce without the necessary, often expensive, equipment. I've worked with electronics and the like quite a bit myself, and can see some parts being replaced by more simple, cheaper circuits, but other parts (i.e., the transducer) will still cost a few grand.

And to accurately measure what is going on would require a CT or MRI in order to achieve a resolution fine enough to make out small modulations in neurotransmission caused by LILFU.