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I highly doubt you'd accidentally dream you were in a highly pressured social situation if you weren't fond of them. If you did, I doubt it'd be anything other than a nightmare, probably just making it worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidfish
Its borderline useless suggesting ways to utilize dreams if you aren't lucid in them.
Okay, but say if it's not a huge pressure situation, just a conversation, could you act in a different way than you would in real life that would still feel realistic? And I'm suggesting that you are lucid in this situation. By the way I'm not trying to argue, and thanks for answering my questions.
Mmm, possibly. But social situations simulated in a dream are quite unrealistic. DCs can be really emotional or respond in unnatural ways. Unrealistic conversation would influence how you feel and respond.Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidfish
In a real conversation, you might feel nervous talking to someone or you might have trouble breaking the ice. In my dreams for one, DCs start conversations, are really easy to talk to, and are always emotionally one sided. Its just too unrealistic for practical use I find.
Also I find the affect of most dream content wares off after I wake up. Like if I remember that oh so common dream where I found myself naked, in the dream it was a big embarrassing panic but in reality when you realize it never happened, it is a clean slate mentally.
Wrong, don't believe it. The only thing that happens to me when I wake up from a LD is that sometimes I wake up in a sweat (if the dream was exciting and room was warm), and I'm really happy/excited, but also very disappointed that it ended. I don't see any way how having a dream where you are consciously awake can have any lasting effects on your personality. When your dreaming your subconscious mind is awake, conscious mind is asleep. When you are awake, conscious mind is up and you go about your business, and subconscious sorta kicks into autopilot (helps you do things like breathing, walking etc.) When you are lucid dreaming, both subconscious and conscious are aware and active at the same time, which just equals more brain awareness, which can only lead to good things, and again I fail to see how heightened awareness can negatively impact your personality.
As far as I can tell, lucid dreaming shapes your personality as much as being awake does. The things we do and experience shape us somewhat, but I see no difference between being conscious in a lucid dream and being conscious while awake. Except for the fact that you can be virtually omnipotent in a lucid dream, of course. That could conceivably give some people a big head, but other than that I don't see much harm.
I think the worst that could happen is a LD could show you a part of yourself that you might not like or be ready to see. For the most part though, I would say that LDing is more of a freeing experience and does not have negative side effects.
Okay, that's understandable. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
I think this is a pretty big (and most-likely incorrect) assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
This is why customer service representatives, salesmen and the like have "role play" as a training method. It is because going through the motions (even if you know that it is just a simulation) does help force familiarity with the situation, and improves performance.
(Coincidentally, I actually tried experimenting with this last night, in a brief moment of lucidity, but it seemed like it took forever to walk across the beach, to where the chick I was going to talk to was, and I ended up losing lucidity before I got to her. lol.)
But this is direct interaction with a personal in reality. I heard about a study once that showed the brain responds differently to communication online, even if its video chat, then when you are face to face with another human being. I propose that in the dream it would be similar, and the mixture of that, an altered conscious state, and unrealistic bizarre conversation and reaction from DCs will dampen any social growth on the dreamers part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero
I'm not proposing that there isn't a "difference," but I think that a simulation is still effective in presenting conditions that can help familiarize yourself with a scenario. Even video games have been shown to increase cognitive performance in situations. Granted, it may not be to the same degree as interacting with an actual person. I don't think anyone is making that declaration. But does it help? I think it does. Do you have any evidence that it's completely ineffective? Because most of what I've seen points to the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
Asking me to propose evidence is fruitless. Nobody here can prove things in dreams. At best you could try to compare what is active in the barin during real conversation and dream conversation, but are you really trying to validate your view on the basis I don't have the equipment to properly test this? You know I can't. So don't go there, thats a poor argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero
There is no evidence to show it does help. In my personal experience, it hasn't. The problem with a lot of people are Dreamviews, and perhaps lucid dreamers everywhere, is that its all too easy to fantasize uses for lucid dreaming that simply don't exist.
How about we all focus on proving the massive list of theories such as this one, rather than creating them and trying to get other people to disprove them.
Nice dodge, but I'm simply asking for evidence that simulations don't help in real life situations; social or otherwise. Like I said, there is plenty of evidence to show that simulated experiences do help. You're making a statement that it doesn't, but you have absolutely nothing that shows that it doesn't. It's not a matter of trying to 'create a theory' (and I actually wonder about your using that terminology). I'm simply stating something that I believe is already backed by science. There is much more evidence that shows that a simulated experience helps in 'real life' perofrmance than there is of your assertion that they do not. That's all I'm saying, and I don't think it's too wild a speculation. Why do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
Lucid dreaming has benefitted me more than anything I can think of, especially this forum in conjuction with it. I started lucid dreaming when iwas about 14 (17 now) and all I can say is that it really started to make/let me grow up in a way. I used to be very indecisive, quiet, and passive-aggressive. Now, I have gained quite a bit of wisdom (a lot from this forum, incredible community :) ), become more social with friends and family, and just a more affable person in general. As my amer. history teacher says, "reading and exposure to other intellectuals is the best way to improve yourself," and it can't be more true.
I'm a realist in a way, in the sense that not everything is sunhine and rainbows, but also an idealist in believeing that anything is possible. For the vast majority of the good that has come about to myself as a person i attribute almost all of it to this community and "hobby," i guess would be the best way to put.
tl;dr: Lucid dreaming is incredible for you and you can only benefit from it. Anything else is likely false.
I've addressed that already and given my reasons for why this is likely to not work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero
No there isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero
Everybody's mind is different. It may be to use for others because they are more "realistic". It may not be of use to others because their dreams aren't as real.
Actually, you've given reasons why the level of interaction might not be the same. You haven't given a single, substantial reason as to why it's likely to be completely ineffective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
You are proposing that there is no evidence to support the idea that simulations can help people in real life situations, even if the experiences aren't exactly the same? Seriously. If that's the case, then I'm just going to leave that statement alone, because I believe it to be pretty ridiculous - for lack of a better word. Practically every proession we have a title for is founded on simulated training scenarios. I understand that you're probably highly opposed to people spreading 'fantasized' theories about lucid dreaming, but - despite whether or not you choose to believe it - the idea that simulations (even those known to be simulations) do aid in developing skills has an endless amount of scientific backing to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
But whatever.
*shrug*
:cheers:
Feel free to read again. I have posted valid reasons for my thoughts over several posts in this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero
You've done nothing so far but be twisty and post nothing of real value to counteract anything I've said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero
The question I was discussing was whether or not social interaction in dreams can allow for social growth or for the dreamer to deal with social situations better in reality. The answer is no. This is a dreaming forum and a dreaming question. Ambiguously referring to it as a "simulation" pretty much seals the idea that you are more interested in pointless word play than writing anything of substance. But please, go on, argue about an idea whipped up from heresay as fact. And while your at it, why not share your reasons for why astral projection to Mars is real and I can how share dream with the queen every night through simply meditation. Those are other hole ridden ideas that people have no basis for believing in but do.
This isn't about my evidence. Its about yours. Its your job to prove your theory, not mine. ;)
I decided to quote this first, because if this is indicative of the type of logic you're using, then it really isn't even worth my defense. This is an obvious strawman. It's actually kind of insulting. That you imply my theory (which apparently 'has no basis for belief', simply because you say it doesn't) is analogous to people believing astral travel and dream sharing is real (concepts which are completely unrelated to the discussion, and not even hinted at by anything in my post) makes your argument look weaker than anything said so far. :?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
You mean your assumption is 'No.' It is a theory that your are putting forth. It is an assertion that you are responsible for providing evidence for, or it is meaningless. You should probably stop stating such an assumption as if it is fact, lest you come off as hypocritical. It's also important to notice that I have not once made the declaration that dreams will help you socially. I have simply proposed the idea, and why it might be true. I have not 'stated it as fact', as you so strategically tried to imply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
You, on the other hand, have done just that, in your assertion that it does not.
No, it doesn't, because that's what dreams are. They are simulations. If someone can gain a real-life advantage from a simulation (whether it be a video game, a roleplay situation), it stands to reason that they may be able to do the same, from a dream. That you're trying to detract from this by implying that dreams are not simulations does nothing to counter the logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
Wrong again. You're commiting the classic 'atheist vs. anti-theist' blunder; thinking that your position doesn't require evidence, simply because it is a negative one. The atheist doesn't require evidence, because absense of a belief in something is not synonymous with the belief in the opposite. Someone who says "I have no belief in a God" is not inherently saying "God Does Not Exist." Someone making such a declarative statement about the absense of God is subject to providing evidence for the theory. It is in the same vein that someone who says a flamboyant kid must not have had a father figure in his life cannot then turn around and say "well it's your job to prove to me that he did." It would actually be that person's job to prove that he didn't, or his assertion is insubstantial. In your case, you are making the declarative statement that lucid dreaming 'cannot' help you in waking life social situations. This is an assertion, and it is one that you are just as responsible for evidencing, as someone who argues to the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loaf
You see how that works? :-?
But, with all that out of the way, I'll back up a little bit, and provide a little rationale as to why I think lucid dreaming may benefit dreamers in the waking world.
Spoiler for Stuff:
There is no way around the notion that dreams are simulations. Are they exact copies of real situations? No, but what simulation is? As I said before, there are mounds of information backing the idea that simulations can help with real-world phobias, and I don't believe there is much reason to assume that lucid dreams would not fall into that catagory. I'm interesting in hearing why you do? (And whether you agree with it or not, this is completely relevant.)
Do I think LDing can change a persons personality? Sure.
Experiences define who we are and who we aren't. LD'ing simply gives us another way to experience life. On the downside the cultural dynamics of LDs are a lot different from waking life so the ability to adapt is important.
I think I've definitely changed since LD'ing. I only hope my brain cells have changed too. What's life without evolution.
What an interesting mind you have, Loaf. Your answer is no, which is perfectly fine. However others on DV have shown how it helped them. Dreams allow some people to rehearse a situation in a variety of ways. Some guys have mentioned issues regarding chicks they dig but might not know how to handle it. In dreaming they manage to have some sort of an experience which helps them reflect on their situation.Quote:
The question I was discussing was whether or not social interaction in dreams can allow for social growth or for the dreamer to deal with social situations better in reality. The answer is no.
The simple act of reflection allows them to process what actions, if any, they'd consider employing in waking life. That's just one example but it can be extended across a variety of situations.
It's great you have such firmly held opinions and aren't easily swayed but it's important to know when to bend a little and see things from an external point of view. Not everyone sees the world the way you do and with that means some will find the dreamstate helpful. I mean, I found it helpful for me... that alone disproves the theory that dreams don't offer social growth.
What I assume you meant at this point was that it is unhelpful to you. Unless you meant it is unhelpful to everyone ... ?
Even if the article was true, i would fight to keep my personality
The point of lucid dreaming is that you CAN tell the difference between waking and dream. It's the regular dreams when you can't tell the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamviewer2006
In a lucid dream you feel like the same person you are when awake.
On the subject of simulating experiences - I also firmly believe that LDing can help with personal growth.
Using the example of meeting someone new and holding a conversation (hard for many people), What LDing has to offer is just an opportunity to let go. It's not important how realistic the situation is, it doesnt even matter what the other person says back to you. You could greet someone and start talking about your day and they could reply with "fried tomatoes" or some other garbage, yet your experience has still been beneficial because you had the opportunity to practise talking, you showed YOURSELF that you have something to say. A lot of the time, things like this happen because people are afraid to try. In lucid dreaming, that fear is deminished and can provide the confidence that you arent going to screw up in real life.
Also the athletes / musicians / artists visualisation practise has been scientifically proven to work - as Oneironaut already mentioned.
All the evidence is with LDing, not agaisnt.
Whether LDs can alter aspects of your personality depends on whether you believe one's personality is static or dynamic. I tend to subscribe to the dynamic view: how can an insecure person become secure? We soon become what we act like and react like - if this weren't true or at least believed, people wouldn't partake in life coaching nor read self-help books. My ultimate point is that how waking life experiences can, say, help improve your confidence, so can conscious dreams.
Furthermore, there is little fundamental difference between life-coaching and lucid dreams regarding personal growth. Neither of them are 'reality', for they both involve orchestrated artificial environments. The ultimate determinant of their success, then, is whether you put what you've practiced into reality.
Oh, and:Indeed: systematic desensitization is merely a gradual presentation of a stimulus in different forms until the final, most feared form evokes no fear. It is likely that if you're scared of spiders in waking life, that a gigantic spider in a dream will evoke the same fear. Thus, it is not a huge leap to assume that desensitization to that stimulus in the dream world will have similar effects in the real world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero