Thread: time in dreaming

Thought moves at the speed of light. Maybe it's just how efficiently we use our power of thought that makes the difference.

And then you go quantum.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

Some possibilities with time dilation:

1)Bull****
2)Scene changes give the illusion of extended time
3)Appropriate temporal memory gives the direct illusion of a long span of time occurring
4)Overclocked brain subjectively experiences more moments in an objective period of time than it does while awake.
5)You slip into a magical time vortex where anything is possible.

I'm not sure I understand #3... do you mean that when you start dreaming, you basically create a "backstory" to the dream, with memories to go with it? I could see that being the case, the dream may not last too long, but it seems to last a long time because you have these "memories" from earlier in the dream.

Really, who's to say that's not the case in real life? Maybe you just popped into existence a few minutes ago with years worth of memories created at the same time.

I really doubt that #4 could make dreams last months... even if we assume a Buddhist crazy-skilled dreamer could manage to have a lucid dream lasting 8 real hours (i.e. all night) to get a dream lasting a month by #4, he'd still have to speed up his brain by 90x. Let alone dreams that last years... If we were capable of using our brains that much more effectively, don't you think we'd do it more often?

Originally Posted by Spamtek

The number I've heard on this was every 7 years.

I've heard 7 years too, but if this is the case, why do people keep tattoos all their lives? If all of their component atoms are replaced why are the new ones coloured artificialy like the old ones?

Originally Posted by Me

Bull****

Weird... why does the quote censor while the post doesn't? Or is my BS censored in the original post for you? It's not censored for me.

Originally Posted by Bear

I'm not sure I understand #3... do you mean that when you start dreaming, you basically create a "backstory" to the dream, with memories to go with it? I could see that being the case, the dream may not last too long, but it seems to last a long time because you have these "memories" from earlier in the dream.

With #2 I meant: Scene changes from day to night > "Wow, I must have spent an entire day in here, it's night already!"
With #3 I meant: No scene changes at all > "Wow, I must have spent an entire day in here! Don't know why, but sure feels that way."

Originally Posted by Bear

Really, who's to say that's not the case in real life? Maybe you just popped into existence a few minutes ago with years worth of memories created at the same time.

The classic question.

Originally Posted by Bear

I really doubt that #4 could make dreams last months... even if we assume a Buddhist crazy-skilled dreamer could manage to have a lucid dream lasting 8 real hours (i.e. all night) to get a dream lasting a month by #4, he'd still have to speed up his brain by 90x. Let alone dreams that last years... If we were capable of using our brains that much more effectively, don't you think we'd do it more often?

I think in waking life it's far more difficult to enable and sustain such a state just because things are objectively happening to you at a certain rate that you can't escape. In dreaming not only is your reaction to your sensory information variable, but the sensory information itself is variable. It may be that an alternate way to dilate time in your dreams is not to overclock the speed at which you perceive your environment (like you can do in RL) but to actually ramp up or down the rate at which you actually create new sensory situations for yourself to deal with.

Originally Posted by John_23

I've heard 7 years too, but if this is the case, why do people keep tattoos all their lives? If all of their component atoms are replaced why are the new ones coloured artificialy like the old ones?

Seems like there's a very thorough answer to this in an old issue of NewScientist which I have a subscription to, but I can't remember my account information (got it as a gift) to log in and see it. Tattoos do fade over time, though; it may be that they're simply not a substance the body can assimilate and carry out of the body, and when original containing cells wear out and get replaced, the inks spill out into other cells (potentially below the surface) and in between them, creating a faded-out, blotchy mess. I know personally that I have a chunk of pencil graphite in the palm of my right hand that has stayed exactly where it is for at least 8 years, no fading or spreading or anything. In that case I don't think it's sinked into cell membranes, it's just a large particle that stays where it is because cells replace themselves gradually and maintain the same basic shape of my hand around the injury area despite an eventual total replacement of the cells therein.

Yeah. It's just like scars. They stay too. Total regeneration isn't one of our traits, eaven though we change atoms. Oh and also it's quite exciting to die and not knowing it. This is what I don't understand. If you add a robotic arm to yourself you're still you. Then you slowly add chips to your brain untill the brain dissapears or almost dissapears. When do you stop being you? It's the same as switching the atoms, what is that makes you you. Is there such a thing as me? If there isn't, then howcome that I am me right know and am aware of it... Help MEH!
The only logical explanations I have:
1. There is a soul or some eternal conciousness. Yes I don't like it and don't really believe it without sufficient proof.
2. The conciousness that is me only exists as long as my brain isn't altered by adding or taking away atoms. So basically a "me" dies every ___ nano/mili/mikro/whatever seconds and is replaced by another "me".

Anyone comments or ideas I should know about?

No, there's no censoring, I just censored it myself when I pulled the quote =)

Originally Posted by Spamtek

I think in waking life it's far more difficult to enable and sustain such a state just because things are objectively happening to you at a certain rate that you can't escape. In dreaming not only is your reaction to your sensory information variable, but the sensory information itself is variable. It may be that an alternate way to dilate time in your dreams is not to overclock the speed at which you perceive your environment (like you can do in RL) but to actually ramp up or down the rate at which you actually create new sensory situations for yourself to deal with.

I see what you're saying, but I still don't think we have too much "latent" brain power hanging around... Things are happening at a set rate, but if we had more brain power, we'd be able to analyze things more as they happen, and I think we probably would. And when we think abstract thoughts, that's independent of sensory information, but there's still a limit on how fast we can think there... at least for me... uh oh, am I just dumb? =)

I hadn't really thought about controlling the sensory input though, and so maybe you can "overclock the speed at which you perceive your environment" with an equal decrease in sensory information. Double the speed of time, but half the amount of information in the dream. If you don't have as much stuff coming at you as in real life, then you would be able to speed up time without necessarily speeding up your brain. For another computer analogy, decrease your graphics settings to increase performance =)

Originally Posted by Bear

I see what you're saying, but I still don't think we have too much "latent" brain power hanging around... Things are happening at a set rate, but if we had more brain power, we'd be able to analyze things more as they happen, and I think we probably would. And when we think abstract thoughts, that's independent of sensory information, but there's still a limit on how fast we can think there... at least for me... uh oh, am I just dumb? =)

It may be that we're capable of astounding feats of quick-mindedness, but it wouldn't be advantageous or even convenient for us to remain in that state all the time. I mean, if you're in the grocery store looking for frozen cauliflower do you necessarily need your brain to be pinging at the speed of light? Quick thoughts are possible and useful but employed sparingly, just like how sprinting can be useful... but you're sure as hell not going to try to sprint the whole Appalachian Trail.

From my own experiences, if nothing else, I find time dilation to be a constant and everyday event. When I'm abstracting and processing large amounts of data, time really does seem to move slower, in the sense that I can recall more discrete moments of memory of that time period that the same amount of time idly walking to class. That's all I need to be able to know to call it "more time."

"It may be that we're capable of astounding feats of quick-mindedness, but it wouldn't be advantageous or even convenient for us to remain in that state all the time."

I don't think so, exactly - the speed of 'thoughts' should be quite constant. There ARE neurons which are capable of faster processing than others - white matter are myelinated neurons which use saltatory conduction to transfer action potentials, gray matter is unmyelinated. However, the speed of the propagation of action potentials of specific neurons should be pretty constant.

You are right, though, that our perception of time is very malleable, depending on what we're doing and our state of mind. Keeping in mind that our perception of time is derived solely from memories, this subjective fluctuation of time is undoubtedly caused by your brain's memory-recording policies. In other words, when you're on the beach, you think back to when you first got there and remember "First I sat down... then I saw that seagull... and here I am", whereas when you're taking a test, you have many more memories recorded and it seems that more has happened.

This all means that the only way it would be possible to make time seem to stretch in your dreams would be to record an usually high amount of memories during your dream. This wouldn't necessarily require an increase in 'thought speed', just a retasking of most of your energy to memory processing. In that case, it doesn't really seem worth the effort because you will probably enjoy your dream less and end up with tons of vague memories of time spent in-dream instead of a few crisp ones.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong. But that's my take on it.

thegnome54, you seem more learned in neuroscience than me, so what do you make of the different levels of brain waves that our brains go through in different states of consciousness and activity? Isn't that some sort of measure of different levels of activity or least excitability? The fact that a relaxed person's brain can emit alpha waves while a problem-solving person's brain is emitting gamma waves - surely there's actually more activity happening in a thinking person's brain and not just more formations of discrete memories?

I suppose the only way we'll have this settled is when one of those claiming to have lived a full 'nother life in their dreams gets around to writing a full lucid autobio of their ulterior life. Of course fictional autobiographies have been written before so even then there would be the doubters, but only when someone's gone to the lengths of recalling a whole lifetime's quantity and quality of memories can they be taken seriously about having really lived that life in their own heads (or a month's worth of memories for living a month, etc.) Everybody who's claimed to do so so far has provided vague details ("Well, I lived in Tokyo, and I sat in my room and drew a lot.") and pretended to know more than that but stay silent because typing the whole thing up would be a chore, or too personal.

Personally I'd love for this phenomenon to be true and I'd love to have the opportunity to immerse myself into a self-created world wherein I live a life oblivious of my dreaming self, but a life whose details this realer me would remember fully upon waking. Mostly because I think I have the tenacity and the verbiage to actually put that life to paper and prove as far as proof can possibly go that this is possible. But then again it might not be possible beyond vague memories that give the impression of a lifetime the same way that a "5 years later..." segue on TV does. That would be sad.

Of course, living a life inside our dreams where we forget for the duration that we're dreaming... sounds a bit like life right now, actually.

"thegnome54, you seem more learned in neuroscience than me, so what do you make of the different levels of brain waves that our brains go through in different states of consciousness and activity? Isn't that some sort of measure of different levels of activity or least excitability? The fact that a relaxed person's brain can emit alpha waves while a problem-solving person's brain is emitting gamma waves - surely there's actually more activity happening in a thinking person's brain and not just more formations of discrete memories?"

My guess would be that those waves are caused by more activity, and not really faster activity. But I really don't know all that much - I'm fifteen, and I'm taking a Summer course on neuroscience at Brown. I just offer my meager knowledge where I can.