Fake lucid dreams?

I just have a question to ask which i've just been wondering about.

How do we know for certain that we've had a lucid dream? I'm certain when i'm dreaming, but when i wake up, i'm not too sure. I think, "why did I do that?" and "why didn't I remember to do this" and just overall it seems like just another dream after a while (except I knew I was dreaming).

How do we know that we actually were lucid and it wasn't just our minds tricking us? What if it is our dream persona who is thinking "i'm dreaming" rather than us and doing what we've planned to do before when we become lucid?

Before I was lucid, I was still doing different things to real life (deciding to appear in my room and stuff rather than walking the whole way). Then when I realised I was lucid I just began trying to do stuff i've wanted to do the next time I was lucid.

Hopefully that all made sense :D What do you all think?

hmmm, good point. I think it may be an LD but without full control, where your dreaming mind still does the work, rather than you doing everything. I've had LDs where i cannot control every aspect, and still do things out of character. But i knew it was an LD

a lucid dream is just knowing you are dreaming, so there is no faking. you either know you are dreaming or you dont!

but we do funny things in lucid dreams dont we? sometimes remember things that we think happened in our waking life, that never happened? or recall previous dreams in a lucid dream, but when you wake up you could swear the previous dream was never real?

theres probably a million and one reasons why this happens! on some level, you are conscious of reality and illusions, otherwise you couldnt be lucid. but maybe you arent conscious of yourself? of your own thoughts? I mean, you can be awake and not be aware of your own thoughts and actions, which makes us do stupid things that we regret. maybe this is what is happening

Quote:

---

hmmm, good point. I think it may be an LD but without full control, where your dreaming mind still does the work, rather than you doing everything. I've had LDs where i cannot control every aspect, and still do things out of character. But i knew it was an LD[/b]

---

Well, in the dream I felt in control, so i had a good amount of control (focusing on my hands...etc to keep the dream vivid) but yeah, I haven't had a LD that I remember where I knew it was a dream but couldn't control it. I've only just started though.

Quote:

---

a lucid dream is just knowing you are dreaming, so there is no faking. you either know you are dreaming or you dont!

but we do funny things in lucid dreams dont we? sometimes remember things that we think happened in our waking life, that never happened? or recall previous dreams in a lucid dream, but when you wake up you could swear the previous dream was never real?

theres probably a million and one reasons why this happens! on some level, you are conscious of reality and illusions, otherwise you couldnt be lucid. but maybe you arent conscious of yourself? of your own thoughts? I mean, you can be awake and not be aware of your own thoughts and actions, which makes us do stupid things that we regret. maybe this is what is happening[/b]

---

Well in the dream i know i'm dreaming, it's just when I wake up. I think you might be right though, I have a feeling that when I lucid dream, my thoughts are more rushed (rather than thinking things through, i'll do things straight away, or as soon as I think about something happening, it does, whether i want it to or not). So maybe i'm not as aware of my thoughts, or as in control of my thoughts as I usually am in real life?

yeah, as a beginner it seems harder, but I agree with the rushed thinking. I am the same way most of the time. You think "argh, i'm in an LD...must do something fun...quick!"

and then try stuff.

Maybe when you get better, you will easily think things through better? I still have rough thinking in LDs but I am pretty rusty now due to being negligent (stress dute to schoolwork etc.)

I just hope that I get to have enough lucid dreams to practice enough and get enough experience. I'll try to think things through in my next lucid dream a lot more carefully as well and see if it works.

well, you've had more than me anyway lol, so I'm sure you will :wink:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenomica
well, you've had more than me anyway lol, so I'm sure you will :wink:

---

lol, i've only had a little bit more than you, not a great deal of difference, we're basically at the same level :wink:

True lol...I still have trouble. I tried to create a city in my LD last night...and the best I could do was create small skyscrapers....the size of me.......made from building blocks :|

anyway, yeah lol...practice makes perfect....although "perfect" may be an impossibilty, but...lets say practice improves ability lol :lol:

"What if it is our dream persona who is thinking "i'm dreaming" rather than us "

I've thought about this quite a few times but never knew how to really formulate this thought...but you said it perfectly... what IF some of my lucid dreams are nothing more than a dream about having a lucid dream? The mind can play so many tricks... what if what I imagined was control was nothing more than a dream about having control?



Thoughts like this especially intrigue me in light of the idea that there is no real time sequence in dreams. For instance, imagine a dream is more like a memory implanted in your head, and upon waking, you order the events and add a sequence to them.

Having said that, I DO think dreams happen in real time and aren't a packaged deal, but a fascinating thought nevertheless. Fred Alan Wolf talks about this in the Dreaming Universe and gives some interresting examples giving weight to both sides related to dream-time.

whoops I spazzed sorry

Quote:

---

Originally posted by invadergarf
How do we know for certain that we've had a lucid dream? I'm certain when i'm dreaming, but when i wake up, i'm not too sure. I think, "why did I do that?" and "why didn't I remember to do this" and just overall it seems like just another dream after a while (except I knew I was dreaming).

How do we know that we actually were lucid and it wasn't just our minds tricking us? What if it is our dream persona who is thinking "i'm dreaming" rather than us and doing what we've planned to do before when we become lucid?

---

I know exactly what you mean. It's like I realize I'm dreaming, but I am still limited to the dream I am in, and I only remember the most limited little things that I want to do. I had one last night, and I rubbed my hands once, thinking I was stabilizing, and I totally knew I was dreaming, but I was still wandering around a dungeon-like maze with a stranger and it seemed like that was an OK thing to be doing; I never tried to change the situation. It does seem in a way just like another dream, and I forget my lucids just like other dreams if I don't record them right away. I never thought about like this before, but it is like BenQ said, almost like I am dreaming about being lucid rather than really being lucid.

I hope with experience the lucidity will become more complete, and I will remember to do the things I want to do.

Funny you ask that because I remember having a dream that at the time I thought was a lucid dream.

But I never did any reality checks, and whenever the dream seemed to fade away It was if a VCR tape was out of whack which led to some rather irrational movement by me in my dream which was most probably dream spinning.

Thing is, It was like my mind was simulating a lucid dream while I was not actually being lucid.

Or at least I knew I was dreaming but had no control.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenomica
True lol...I still have trouble. I tried to create a city in my LD last night...and the best I could do was create small skyscrapers....the size of me.......made from building blocks :|

anyway, yeah lol...practice makes perfect....although "perfect" may be an impossibilty, but...lets say practice improves ability lol :lol:

---

I'd say you should start small, rather than trying to make a city in your LD, try something smaller first, I don't think i'd get anywhere near creating a skyscraper... I can't even make a person appear yet, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by BenQ
"What if it is our dream persona who is thinking "i'm dreaming" rather than us "

I've thought about this quite a few times but never knew how to really formulate this thought...but you said it perfectly... what IF some of my lucid dreams are nothing more than a dream about having a lucid dream? The mind can play so many tricks... what if what I imagined was control was nothing more than a dream about having control?



Thoughts like this especially intrigue me in light of the idea that there is no real time sequence in dreams. For instance, imagine a dream is more like a memory implanted in your head, and upon waking, you order the events and add a sequence to them.

Having said that, I DO think dreams happen in real time and aren't a packaged deal, but a fascinating thought nevertheless. Fred Alan Wolf talks about this in the Dreaming Universe and gives some interresting examples giving weight to both sides related to dream-time.

---

Dreams are such an ununderstood thing that there are so many questions... It's good to see that others have thought about this as well, maybe it's just a general feeling that we get after a lucid dream?

I think lucid dreams kinda happen in real time. People have said that they've spent a while in a lucid dream which only went for a short time so I think that time may be slightly different or slower in lucid dreams at certain times. It's all really hard to have a good opinion when so little is known about lucid dreams and dreams in general.

I don't really understand the idea of a dream being a memory implanted in our head though, what do you mean by that?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Moonbeam+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moonbeam)</div>

Quote:

---

I know exactly what you mean. It's like I realize I'm dreaming, but I am still limited to the dream I am in, and I only remember the most limited little things that I want to do. I had one last night, and I rubbed my hands once, thinking I was stabilizing, and I totally knew I was dreaming, but I was still wandering around a dungeon-like maze with a stranger and it seemed like that was an OK thing to be doing; I never tried to change the situation. It does seem in a way just like another dream, and I forget my lucids just like other dreams if I don't record them right away. I never thought about like this before, but it is like BenQ said, almost like I am dreaming about being lucid rather than really being lucid.

I hope with experience the lucidity will become more complete, and I will remember to do the things I want to do.[/b]

---

Exactly, we know we are dreaming, but are still kinda limited sometimes. Maybe it's just a degree of control? Or maybe after we realise we are dreaming we kinda fade off a bit and forget? Or lose control to our subconsious? The lucid dreams I have I seem to have a lot of control, but still wonder why i've done certain things when I've woken up. They seemed logical at the time, but later on when I think about it aren't something I would have done in real life after thinking it through. Lucid dreams just sometimes after i've woken up don't seem like lucid dreams even though I think they are. Wow, that's confusing.

I'm still waiting for another lucid dream so I can pay attention to whether i'm dreaming and in control...etc. Hopefully I'll have one tonight.

<!--QuoteBegin-uberpsycho
Funny you ask that because I remember having a dream that at the time I thought was a lucid dream.

But I never did any reality checks, and whenever the dream seemed to fade away It was if a VCR tape was out of whack which led to some rather irrational movement by me in my dream which was most probably dream spinning.

Thing is, It was like my mind was simulating a lucid dream while I was not actually being lucid.

Or at least I knew I was dreaming but had no control.

---

I've also had a lucid dream in which I realised it was a dream but didn't bother taking control. I'm not sure why I didn't either. I forgot I was dreaming around a few moments later after going up some stairs and continuing on with the dream.

That's a strange dream though, though I think we can be lucid without having control, so maybe it was just one of those dreams? I know i've had heaps of dreams in the past (before i knew about lucid dreaming) where I knew I was dreaming, but didn't do anything about it. It basically only helped me when I had a nightmare, as I then knew to stop the dream (not sure whether it was me stopping the dream or my dream persona/subconsious which I thought was me... in fact it's kinda the same problem i'm having here only here I'm actually feeling like i'm in control).

Well, hopefully those messages made sense as well, seeing as the whole thing is kinda hard to describe, if anything didn't make sense which I typed, please tell me :D

Quote:

---

Originally posted by invadergarf

Well, hopefully those messages made sense as well, seeing as the whole thing is kinda hard to describe, if anything didn't make sense which I typed, please tell me :D

---

It is hard to describe, and I think you put it into words really well, because I totally knew what you meant. It kind of clarified what I was feeling when I said before in some post that I wasn't achieving full lucidity. This morning I was thinking it is like I am not lucid with my whole mind, just a part of it, and that is why I can't ever remember to do the things I want to do, and I don't have control like I want.

Dreams remain weird and unexplainable even when lucid.

If you ever had one lucid dream, and are positive it was a lucid dream.

Then it's easy.

I, for example, remember every time, that I became lucid somewhere halfway in the dream.
(eg.: I get DILD's all the time, so I dream.. I walk here or there.. then become lucid, and I will REMEMBER that part).

If you experienced an LD (at least for me) it's just a matter of remembering whether you realized if you became aware or not.

I don&#39;t think that it is possible to have a fake lucid dream. If in a dream you think that you are dreaming or dream that you think that you are dreaming, them you will think that you are dreaming and will become lucid.

In fact, my dry spell ended in a dream when my friend (a friend. I do have more than one) asked me to fly over to a cliff to hit a switch. With that I got angry and shouted at him, &#39;I CAN&#39;T&#33; I JUST CAN&#39;T OKAY? I CAN&#39;T BECOME LUCID ANYMORE&#33;&#39; Slightly wierd but just the mention of dreams kicked me into lucidity.

Quote:

---

Dreams remain weird and unexplainable even when lucid.[/b]

---

That&#39;s a good point&#33; Maybe it&#39;s just how dreams are and we&#39;ll never be able to change it? Maybe we&#39;ll be stuck with wondering for the rest of our life?

Quote:

---

If you ever had one lucid dream, and are positive it was a lucid dream.

Then it&#39;s easy. [/b]

---

It&#39;s not easy for me sadly, i&#39;ve had a lucid dream in which I was positive it was a lucid dream, but now I haven&#39;t been sure.

Quote:

---

I don&#39;t think that it is possible to have a fake lucid dream. If in a dream you think that you are dreaming or dream that you think that you are dreaming, them you will think that you are dreaming and will become lucid.[/b]

---

Makes sense, the only problem is the uncertainty later of if you really were lucid dreaming. It&#39;s complicated, but probably all in my head I bet.


I also had the longest lucid dream ever, but can&#39;t remember any of it&#33; All I realised in the morning was remembering that sometime during the night i&#39;d thought I was dreaming and become lucid. Maybe the lucidity didn&#39;t last long but I remember thinking it was... so disappointing...