Printable View
Ok i pretty much beleive LD is what it is, but i had this thought that maybe LD is just having a dream about becoming lucid where you beleive everything your mind throws at you. for example you think your in control of the dream but its just a regular dream about controlling your dream. if you know what i mean feel free to discuss.
Well, I'd say that the same question can be asked of waking life. Are we realy conscious of ourselves, or is it just an illusion? In a lucid dream, there is a point at which you realize: Hey! This is a dream! Whether that's just part of the dream's script, or you're actually aware of it could be debated fruitlessly, indefineitely. I belive that enlightenment is the state of mind where you realize that nothing is real, that this whole existence is just an illusion. That clarity comes and goes throughout your life, just like the clarity of a LD comes and goes throughout the dream. Undoubtedly, this could be an interesting debate, but certainly the experience of lucidity is rewarding and worth while in any event.
Tee hee hee hee. I asked the exact same thing when I was new to the subject. What I say is that it doesn't matter. You still get the same rush, right?
That's interesting, but can't you say the same for your waking state? What does it mean to be awake? Did i just dream about a butterfly? or Am i a butterfly dreaming right now... It's all about the concept of consciouness, which is barely known scientifically.
if you think about it..this could be an illiusion...because we live wakign life now..but we are all going to die some day and live somewhere for an eternity, where we wont beable to *die again* and go somewhere else..so for now, life could be an illiusion--entertainment, till the day we move on...
just a whacky thought..
not that i beileve in what i just said but i hope no one takes offence
god bless
dj jones
A lucid dream isn't a dream about controlling a dream because of one simple yet important aspect: awareness. While lucid one is aware just as during the waking state.
I agree, but one might make the argument that you only remember being aware, and that you wern're aware aat the time. Similarly, all of your life memories up to this point may have been completely devoid of awareness. You mind just inserts the concept of awareness where it seems it should have been. Not likey, IMHO, put possible.
What I find very weird is the fact that if your memory was wiped, so everything you ever experianced was gone, it would feel as if you were never there experiancing it... meaning that everything is based on what we will remember in the future, meaning the future is already set...
I can't remember what I was trying to say here... But, oh well, interesting anyway!
That's true in one sense, and untrue in another. Have you had an LD? If so, you would swear you were being aware of it in real time. And especially upon awakening is when you'd find your opinion on this subject, you'll likely remember everything instantly, having the dream memories being no less realistic than what you did in the past few hours while awake.
I've had many an LD, thank you very much! Else I wouldn't call myself a lucid scholar! :D
I know what you mean, but have you ever considered that the soul may have some sort of "Free Will" creator that makes you think the decicions are being made then, by you, rather than by destiny at some infinate point in the future? I'm quite interested in the subject, but I'm not passionate either way, so critisize the hell out of me, if that is what you desire!
Yeah......I know what u mean.Quote:
Originally posted by Suckertrain
Ok i pretty much beleive LD is what it is, but i had this thought that maybe LD is just having a dream about becoming lucid where you beleive everything your mind throws at you. for example you think your in control of the dream but its just a regular dream about controlling your dream. if you know what i mean feel free to discuss.
I think there's a difference though. :)
It wouldn't really matter if LDs were this. It'd be pretty much the same. You still feel that same freedom and happiness you would either way. It wouldn't make much difference, though I don't think this is what is actually happening to us.
if i have to go through the public education system again i'll shoot myself.Quote:
Originally posted by Snyyppis
And one day (probably when we die) we wake up and find ourselves being 6 years old in a completely different world, getting ready to go to school... :D
I know it seems quite far, but it could be possible.. couldn't it? :wink:
Even if this were true, as Nietzsche said, it's about as useful as a drowning sailor knowing the chemical composition of water. This is what we know, define and feel as either reality or not. This is what we know, define and feel as lucid dreaming.
But then, according to snyyppis' theory, you'd just be 6 years old, ready to go to school again ^.^Quote:
Originally posted by mongreloctopus
if i have to go through the public education system again i'll shoot myself.
Anyway, apart from the fact that knowing the difference between the two is practically useless (which I completely agree with), It's important to note that our dreams are scripted before we have them. Any situations or environment you dream about is created right at that moment, meaning that we're not just going along with the dream's "plot" either way.
Just emphasizing ^.^
Hi Umbrella, so they're really instantly scripted right at the moment of dreaming? This makes want to become a better scriptwriter! :mad:Quote:
Originally posted by Umbrella
Anyway, apart from the fact that knowing the difference between the two is practically useless (which I completely agree with), It's important to note that our dreams are scripted before we have them. Any situations or environment you dream about is created right at that moment, meaning that we're not just going along with the dream's "plot" either way.
Just emphasizing ^.^
Lol, yes they are, and your subconciousness is what's writing the script. Each event triggers schemas in your mind. This means it associates the event or something or whatever you're noticing with other things, which it has learned to do automatically in waking life.
That means that when you're walking down a street at night and seeing a person you don't recognize, it might bring up a fear of the person wanting to hurt, which can turn the dream into a nightmare where you're pursued and can't escape.
Then again, it might also associate the same situation with meeting a friend and going to the movies. The person might be revealed as your friend and you'll proceed to go into a cinema together.
Your brain constantly keeps creating situations based on what it associates your current situation with (which has to do with what you expect, mostly) and thus scripts your dreams while they're happening
I think you're close, but I notice a common misconception about the brain that everyone seems to make. At least, I think it's a misconception. Thanks to the technological revolution, we tend to associate information storage with the idea of computers. I don't see any reason to think of the brain as a unique internal organ. Every other organ is a bladder of sorts; so is the brain. Perceptions cause nueroelectrical signals that collect in the brain, where they are extracted and used at need. It's information digestion. When you sleep, that information is purged in a series of squirts, each squirt being a dream (non-lucid) - all the unused perceptions being excreted from the system to make room for new perceptions. There are no scripts, programs, databases, hard drives, abstraction layers or integrated circuits. That's just silly. The brain is a bladder. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
So you're saying your mind doesn't create anything that let's you associate what you're seeing with something else? If that were true, you wouldn't remember anything. Every time you got to this forum you not know what it was or what it would be for. Your brain definitly does have to store data (schemas are presumably embodied in the brain by networks of neurons) in order for you to do pretty much anything.Quote:
Originally posted by O-Nieronaut
I think you're close, but I notice a common misconception about the brain that everyone seems to make. At least, I think it's a misconception. Thanks to the technological revolution, we tend to associate information storage with the idea of computers. I don't see any reason to think of the brain as a unique internal organ. Every other organ is a bladder of sorts; so is the brain. Perceptions cause nueroelectrical signals that collect in the brain, where they are extracted and used at need. It's information digestion. When you sleep, that information is purged in a series of squirts, each squirt being a dream (non-lucid) - all the unused perceptions being excreted from the system to make room for new perceptions. There are no scripts, programs, databases, hard drives, abstraction layers or integrated circuits. That's just silly. The brain is a bladder. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
Maybe I misunderstood your post or maybe you misunderstood mine. I dunno. I just don't see how that could be a misconception
The brain does store information, just not in the same way as computers, that's all I'm saying. The information is not concrete, it's fluid - analog as apposed to digital. It's not "scriptable", per se. I know that they weren't saying dreams are compiled ala c++ or COBOL, I just like an opportunity to plug my own ideas.
Uh huh. Where am I saying the brain is like a computer though? You seem to be disagreeing with part of my post, but I can't see which part, so I can't explain what I'm talking about. :hrm:
Hay look, 100th post ^.^
So when you say dreams can be associated with certain things what about all the weird stuff in dreams? does every single thing associate with something you have thought before? or does the subconcious just have more imagination?
Every aspect of your dream is related to something you percieved, not necessarily thought about.
i guess he wins thenQuote:
Originally posted by Umbrella
Uh huh. Where am I saying the brain is like a computer though? You seem to be disagreeing with part of my post, but I can't see which part, so I can't explain what I'm talking about. :hrm:
Yes verry intresting question.
I think you can indeed Dream that you are lucid. And maybe do cool stuff, but you don't really have any influence on it, you just Dream you have.
I think that's kind of what makes dreams High-lucid or Low-lucid. In Low-lucid dreams your mind is still so asleep that you don't really do more then dream you are really thinking, in a high-lucid you really have influence.
But still indeed, you can Never Really know you are not dreaming, you might be now ;)
Well... f00kQuote:
Originally posted by Suckertrain+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Suckertrain)</div>Well, your dreams are put together pretty much by your brain guessing what's going on around you (lacking any sensory input) and basing its guess on your expectations and motivations. That is, what you expect to happen (ever notice how something you expect almost always happens in dreams?) and what you want to happen (or don't want to). Because your brain is used to life being more like a logical series of events than just some random situations that change completely from time to time, it takes an object or situation you're near/in and uses the schemas I talked about in my other post so your dream can be a somewhat coherent story.Quote:
So when you say dreams can be associated with certain things what about all the weird stuff in dreams? does every single thing associate with something you have thought before? or does the subconcious just have more imagination?[/b]
What may happen, however, is that the wrong association is made, which can make the strange things happen. For instance, when you're seeing an ocean, it might make you think of a boat, and the next thing you know, you're on a boat. Though this association is pretty obvious, sometimes it happens more indirectly, creating typical, insane dreaming situations.
On a sidenote. All these things about the schemas and expecation/motivation and stuff are from Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming (EWLD). A book by Stephen LaBerge. So at least you know I'm not just pulling this all out of my ass. I wish I was though, but probably wouldn't be capable of that. I'm not that smart. ^.^
<!--QuoteBegin-mongreloctopus
i guess he wins then
I think Dr. LaBerge and others proved this not to be the case when they were using REM patterns to communicate from the dream state. If a person was dreaming of lucidity, then there would be a disconnect there and the eye patterns would not have been remembered or transmitted.
What we know is this: that with practice and discipline, we are capable of carrying conscious thoughts into the dream world and acting on them in predetermined ways. If lucidity itself was a dream, then the response would have been dreamed too. The response was real, and recorded under laboratory conditions.
Indeed. Of course one could argue that, once dreaming they were lucid, the test subjects would move their eyes because knew they had to do so when they became lucid. This however, would mean that even if they were only dreaming of lucidity, the effect would be exactly the same. This, in turn, means it doesn't matter either. Think about it :DQuote:
Originally posted by pj
I think Dr. LaBerge and others proved this not to be the case when they were using REM patterns to communicate from the dream state. *If a person was dreaming of lucidity, then there would be a disconnect there and the eye patterns would not have been remembered or transmitted.
What we know is this: that with practice and discipline, we are capable of carrying conscious thoughts into the dream world and acting on them in predetermined ways. *If lucidity itself was a dream, then the response would have been dreamed too. *The response was real, and recorded under laboratory conditions.