Thread: Age and Lucidity

lenscaper - are you keeping a record of your LDs? If so, be sure to post them in the dream journal. I really enjoy reading other people's LDs. It is inspiring and often very entertaining.

I have kept a pretty good DJ in general since I began this journey six months or so ago and my strong lucid events are labeled nicely for me to go back to.

What's really cool to me is that I still have seriously clear memories and images of the ten or twelve strongest ones. I find that I experience a lot of what I might call low grade lucidity but those strong LDs that you drop right into or that come from sudden dream sign recognition can REALLY stick with you in vivid detail.

I have not taken advantage of our forum DJ section, however.

I was going to make new thread, but thanks to Sageous mentioning about falling in the DC trap, I'm going to post it here.

As one that is very curious about DCs as me, I tried to make a lot of contacts as possible for this reason with them and finally reach a breakthrough. My theory was proved true by series of positive experiments. One of them is type of a dream that I started to have recently, it is like remote viewing, but instead in dream world. In these I don't have a body, it's like my consciousness is floating around and other people/DC are controling the dream and most of the time I have more than one perspective(what do you think how can I have more than one viewpoint at the same time).

In the last dream I saw two DCs arguing about "is this the real world or not" or so I thought. The more I listened to their conversation, the more I realized that one of them was in fact a dreamer. He was gaining lucidity little by little and started to question the reality itself. In the last moments, he say to the DC that this world maybe is not real and maybe he was dreaming, but the DC traped him in 'another reality' using that precise moment, he(DC) told him that this is indeed a fake world, but instead of a dream he told him this holographic projected reality on top of the real one and in fact they are still in real world. With that explanation the dreamer lost the little lucidity he has and his dream continue as non-lucid. They continue to talk how they are gonna escape this holographic prison as they walked away from my viewpoint.
I will write a further reference but I need to synthesize it correctly first.

A lot to ponder over in your post. StarSeeker, and I hope to learn from the comments that come. But, if you don't mind, I'd like to pick up on one aspect of it because it has caused an important realization for me.

Originally Posted by StarSeeker

One of them is type of a dream that I started to have recently, it is like remote viewing, but instead in dream world. In these I don't have a body, it's like my consciousness is floating around

Pretty much all of my pre-LD dreams were like that I think.....only occasionally would I be in a body and observing the dream. But in the first week after I was drawn into the world of LD something happened, that thanks to your post, I now see as very important. After a night of intense HI I went into a dream where I was flying high above a stream at the edge of a field. Standing there in the middle of the stream, far below me, was a figure. As I entered that dream high above that stream I said, for the first time ever, "This is a dream", and I flew down and became that body.

The coolest thing is that the very next night, after more intense HI, I had the EXACT SAME dream......same exact stream setting......except there was no figure standing in it. In that second dream I walked up the stream to a pool, entered the pool and laid down on the bottom looking up at the blue sky.

Since those two dreams, in every single dream I have had I have been in my body in the dream. I think that establishing that body connection has been an important thing for me. SO much to ponder here........

Thanks for your post, StarSeeker.

I'm sorry lenscaper, I'll have to postpone my report, because I'm in the middle of important mind experiment and I will need a little more time. In meanwhile I have something interesting to post, because of new technique or one that I finally complete, this morning I had whole 12 lucid dreams in a span of 3 hours. The method is strange but easy to perform, before I was doing it incidentally, but with little help of a Guru, I finally completed it. The Guru words to me was "Let go of your Ego, stop trying to control everything, including death, everyone dies, that is the natural course of the universe. You have to surrender, only then you will be able to use your full potential."

So here go the steps: Best time to try this is in the morning after al least 5 hour of sleep. You can use alarm or the natural aproach. The hard part is that you need to get closer to the sleep moment as much as possible and then begin next steps, but you don't need to do a WILD aproach. You gonna know the right moment when you start to see dream images, simply focus your vision on one of them, but don't focus on the entire image, only on a single object, preferred on small object, like a book, sign, bottle of any kind. Something that has tiny details on it, now focus on these details, like zooming your vision(if you know how sniper rifle work, when change the zoom from 2x to 4x to 8x), try to make them clear as you can, but don't try too hard, everything must be performed in calm yet focused way. Now that you zoomed in on that object catch him with your dream hands, they don't need to be visible, it is more like you catch him with your mind. When you do this the object will turn into a anchor and your dream hands in a rope, metaphorically speaking. Now just fall asleep while holding the object, surrender to the dream, you gonna feel a suck in sensation and you will get directly in the dream, it's working like a WILD. The dream that come is a fleeting, so you need to stabilize him fast.

Tip: If you can't see any dream images you always can make a simple visualization of the preferred object and then start the focusing part, most of the time I'm doing this, because visualization is simpler for me than waiting to happen on it's own.

Good Luck^^


p.s. In one of the LD, everything around me was full of DCs, it was a huge plaza. For the first time I didn't care at all, I strip all my clothes and run around in Awe

That is fantastic success, StarSeeker!!

I really like that technique. I have had HIs in my hands a few times but my inexperience kept me from doing anything with them and the moment was fleeting. The idea of focusing in on a detail sounds excellent.

My nightly practice seems to be boiling down to a distinct set of specific exercises as I get closer to my goal of developing a nightly protocol that allows me to get the sleep I need while still achieving lucidity as often as possible. During the week I really only have seven hours to work with. Here is what I have been doing:

1. As soon as I lay down I begin to reach for a calm and stable place through breathing and meditation while lying on my back. I pretty much can now will my body to sleep within five minutes or so.

2. I always wake for the first time in 3 - 4 hours. At this time I concentrate on feeling as much clarity and presence as I can....depending on how sleepy I am. On a good night I will have already had sufficient cleansing and restful sleep to allow for 10 - 15 minutes of this kind on introspection. When sleep closes back in I immediately roll over and let it.

3. My third waking generally comes 1 -2 hours before I need to get up. This is the time to make a move on lucidity. If the first two sessions were strong I will wake feeling stable, clear and present in the moment......I will then get up for a few minutes. Upon returning to bed I finally engage in some real LD technique, such as strong lucid intention or perhaps SSILD. That last hour or so before I must rise is my time for lucidity so I try to let sleep come back again fairly quickly in more of a DILD type transition. On weekends, when I can sleep in a bit, this becomes a time for prolonged HI and a possible WILD.

As I work more and more within the above framework, I find myself more and more entering a dream scene and taking charge of the scene. I redirect DCs as well as the plot. There is not often an "AHA! moment" of dream recognition but instead there is a general feeling of awareness of the dream. For instance, last night I looked at a very obvious dream sign and kind of chuckled a little as I went on with what I was doing. What is interesting is that I always know when it is time to exit the dream.....I never oversleep.

I feel as though I am establishing a natural base state of lucidity through these very basic practices. I feel like I am building a very strong foundation.

I have been trying to use the people who come into my office or who walk by my door as RC moments because I am trying to use DC's as DS's. When I have been successful at that in the dream, the Dream Character loses his or her grasp on me and lucidity springs up immediately.

But....here in my office I generally fail miserably at practicing this. I just can't seem to grab that first moment of pure perception. I know that if I can get better at this during the day I will improve significantly at night as well.

So....this is now my new computer background....sitting here in front of me on my seriously large computer screen that only I can see. I think I better buckle up, right?

I am approaching month eight of my training and I have been sitting out on the back deck watching a few yellow leaves flutter down from the big butternut tree and pondering last night's dreams.........while I wrap my head around just what it is that I am doing and what I have accomplished.

I have come to the realization that I have been using lucid dreaming as a powerful tool toward a deeper goal. By plumbing the hidden depths of my subconscious mind I have come to know myself much better, in the process reaping a few other very cool benefits. There is a new clarity to everything I do these days. My mind is sharper and my body feels younger. My stress level is down.....as is my blood pressure. I feel as if I am living each day from moment to moment now and I can feel my world expanding toward horizons that seem at once perfectly distant and right in front of me. Even my songwriting seems to have improved.

Once again....just sharing.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

I am approaching month eight of my training and I have been sitting out on the back deck watching a few yellow leaves flutter down from the big butternut tree and pondering last night's dreams.........while I wrap my head around just what it is that I am doing and what I have accomplished....

Wow! Nice!

What kinds of songs do you write, BTW?

I write about the what I am feeling about the world around me. As I think about it right now, my songs are a bit like dreams........they come from within and generally have a message that is hidden within a story. Take a listen if you'd like......

.......and thanks for asking about it.

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/de...5B49F750D40CEA

Originally Posted by lenscaper

I write about the what I am feeling about the world around me. As I think about it right now, my songs are a bit like dreams........they come from within and generally have a message that is hidden within a story. Take a listen if you'd like......

.......and thanks for asking about it.

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/de...5B49F750D40CEA

I've been listening to some of your music. Great stuff! Have you found that your work on LDs has influenced your music? Seems like it would. (I apologize if you've already talked about that elsewhere in this thread. Haven't read it all.)

Originally Posted by Zthread

Have you found that your work on LDs has influenced your music?

First off, thanks so much for listening!! "Save Your Last Dream For Me" was written just a month after I started training hard. I had already realized that the last dream was always the most powerful of the night.

Since I began my lucid dreaming journey my songs seem to flow out naturally. It's as if I have opened a conduit into my subconscious. I'll be picking on an acoustic guitar and a line will just slip out and ride the music........and a new song begins. I have always written that way but these days that flow seems to always be there.

Quite honestly, my entire life has subtly changed in similar ways since I have begun to inhabit my dreams, particularly in the last month or so as I have felt myself stabilizing into a self-sustaining pattern of lucidity. I am approaching things differently in my life and my work........from a more centered, relaxed and confident perspective that is extremely effective.

Thanks again for checking out my music.

In my ongoing research into as many perspectives on LDing as possible I stumbled upon this interesting short paper.

Training For Lucid Awareness

In it the author speaks of training her students in lucid awareness by having them "re-dream" in waking fantasies to improve the outcome of previous dreams.

So....I , of course, took it a bit further and tried a version of that out for a few days. I imagined myself very small while sitting under the spreading leaves of the tiny succulent plant on my desk. I reached up and touched the bottom of the leaves. I took an imaginary trip through the spiraling chambers of a large conch shell that I have over on my lay-out table. I did a bunch of stuff like that. Then, back home on the deck after sunset I closed my eyes and imagined myself in the upper atmosphere watching the sun set over the curvature of the earth.

Lucid Friday night and again Monday night.......short periods of time as usual. Working on that aspect now.

I have a hugely important meeting in my office in about an hour and, for some reason, I am nervous about this one. I will be presenting something bold....a little over the edge.

So......I am sitting back and picturing myself climbing over the railing of a very high bridge and looking down while I hang from the bridge. It sure is a long, long drop down the the river below. But here's the thing.......I did exactly that just two nights ago. After looking down at that drop....I let go and floated.

Letting go again right now.......floating...breathing.

Ahhhh.....I'm ready now.

So after immersing myself for a while in the dream yoga approach to ADA I decided to go all in for a bit. I spent the last couple of weeks practicing just "The Main Practice" as outlined in "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep". It took a while to get into the flow and after spending months working on more active LD techniques like SSILD and the like, these passive protocols seemed, well, TOO passive.

But as I got into the rhythm of it and actually got through opening all four of the chakras (as I understand it), something interesting has begun to happen. I have found my dreams to be clearer and much more memorable...with a strong sense of what I would call underlying lucidity. I am having memorable dreams with each sleep cycle now.....filling a lot of dream journal real estate with them.

But the coolest things happen when I throw in strong SSILD at the end before going to sleep for the final sleep cycle.

I'll stay on this for a while and see where I end up.

Here's how that protocol might look.......

Actually, just noticed you have a song called "Save your last dream for me." I assume that's probably inspired by your LD work.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

So after immersing myself for a while in the dream yoga approach to ADA I decided to go all in for a bit. I spent the last couple of weeks practicing just "The Main Practice" as outlined in "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep". It took a while to get into the flow and after spending months working on more active LD techniques like SSILD and the like, these passive protocols seemed, well, TOO passive.

But as I got into the rhythm of it and actually got through opening all four of the chakras (as I understand it), something interesting has begun to happen. I have found my dreams to be clearer and much more memorable...with a strong sense of what I would call underlying lucidity. I am having memorable dreams with each sleep cycle now.....filling a lot of dream journal real estate with them.

But the coolest things happen when I throw in strong SSILD at the end before going to sleep for the final sleep cycle.

I'll stay on this for a while and see where I end up.

Here's how that protocol might look.......

Hi lenscaper,
I'm coming to your thread a bit late, but welcome to the site and congrats on all your progress! I'm also a "more mature" LD practitioner (mid 50's now), having started right at the end of my 40's. I found I had very good success. I was thrown off practice for the last couple years by traumatic waking life events, but I'm making my way back towards more lucidity.

It's great that you're working with TYoDaS. I find that the two general approaches I resonate the most strongly with are the general practice as described in ETWOLD chapters 1-3, and the two pages at the start of the practice section of TYoDaS. In fact, I believe these two pages are the most significant and succinct summary of LD practice in general, and encourage everybody to read them (link to these pages is in my LD bibliography post) and really ponder them.

I would also encourage you to read Andrew Holecek's DY/LD book. He offers a slightly more "Western" perspective on the practice, with a bunch of concrete exercises.

I think the degradations that come with age can be counteracted by maintaining an active lifestyle. There is ample research that "athletes of aging" who maintain high levels of physical activity (including strength training) do not suffer from the ails of degenerative muscle and bone loss. I believe the same goes for largely mental activities as well -- in other words, "use it or lose it." When you're young, you just have "it" by default, but those of us in the "2nd half of life" need to expend effort to keep "it."

Consistency is key with LD practice. Do something every day, even just a little. Keep LDing on your mind -- the notion that at any conscious moment, you could actually be in the dream state.

I find that my best and longest lucids some when I have specific, concrete dream goals. Participating in DV site TOTM, TOTY, and competition activities can really help with this. Some of my best LDs of all time were when I accomplished TOTM goals in succession. Dream length can be enhanced by actually *not worrying* about dream length, but instead focusing on really enjoying each dream, and having specific things on your list that you want to accomplish.

As for more general advice, I'd say: focus on dreaming practice, not just LD practice. Really treasure all your dreams, especially the non-lucid ones (since they come for "free" every night!), and consider LDs as icing on the cake. Work for lucidity, but do not set up a "non-lucid = failure" association, which IMO can impede LD progress. A positive, happy, confident, anxiety-free mindset results in great dreaming, and more lucidity!

Hey, it finally happened! I've been waiting for you guys to connect for months; I knew you would. I suggest you stay in touch with each other as your paths -- and your drives -- seem remarkably similar to me!

Hey FryingMan!!

Thanks so much for stopping by. Every bit of your excellent post resonates with me....all of it. You have hit on all of the aspects of the somewhat personalized training and practice program that I seem to have developed. It is extremely encouraging to read the observations of someone who started late in life and now has close to ten years of experience........as I work my way through month eight.

For other older folks who are following I want to underline this:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I think the degradations that come with age can be counteracted by maintaining an active lifestyle. There is ample research that "athletes of aging" who maintain high levels of physical activity (including strength training) do not suffer from the ails of degenerative muscle and bone loss. I believe the same goes for largely mental activities as well -- in other words, "use it or lose it."

By way of agreement with that excellent observation above......I was up at 4:00 AM this morning after a night of excellent dreaming. After 30 minutes of yoga and cardio I spent another 30 minutes in the music studio doing deep editing on a new song. Then I went into my office where I always start with another 30 minutes of meditation before I get to work. Some time in mid morning I'll close the door and spend some time with my 30# weight.

I sincerely invite anyone who is following this thread to read FryingMan's post ....and then read it again...because every one of those aspects are a part of what has been working for me.

This last bit resonates the most:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

As for more general advice, I'd say: focus on dreaming practice, not just LD practice. Really treasure all your dreams, especially the non-lucid ones (since they come for "free" every night!), and consider LDs as icing on the cake. Work for lucidity, but do not set up a "non-lucid = failure" association, which IMO can impede LD progress. A positive, happy, confident, anxiety-free mindset results in great dreaming, and more lucidity!

Ok....not really ignoring them....more like choosing to not let them affect the dream.

As I approach month nine my dreams are now often that way. As the lucid observer of a clear dream I tend to choose to stay in the dream rather than trigger more active lucidity and go off on an adventure.

Last night was a classic example. I am in a massively crowded airport where the crowds are all moving along in a definite direction. Interspersed in the crowd are people from my past...ex-wives, estranged children, ex-inlaws. It is all very calm and I am flitting from one to the other casually interacting with them as they all move along independent of each other in the crowd.

The cool thing is, though, that there are a number of blatantly obvious incongruities that keep appearing. I see these dream signs as what they are and some of them make me chuckle....but I know that the dream itself is more important so I choose not to let them trigger more extreme lucidity of the sort that will draw me away from what I am observing.

Every few days my subconscious gives me a break from all that and serves me up with an inescapable lucid experience by dropping me directly into a scenario that can only be resolved through true active lucidity.....generally flight. These lucid moments are always staged to give me time to comprehend the situation and make an active decision.......hanging from a bridge or balancing on a high tree branch.

Once again, just sharing.....and pondering even more.

In the last couple of months I have started writing down some of the things that have been working for me. I want to have a record of these things so I can revisit them from time to time and possibly even revise them as I learn more. These "white papers" are really just notes to myself.

This is one that has been resonating a lot of late and really working well for me. After discussing it with a friend I realized that I needed to make sure I captured it in this format as well.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gx...eRZGpP6BpAbKEF

Into month nine......

I am having one or more clear dream every night and I always have one that stays with me all of the next day. Every 5 to 10 days I have a lucid event that leaves me exhilarated and enlightened in the morning. After working pretty much every day and night for these months and experimenting with every technique I have now boiled my program down to three simple elements that I practice all day.

Pure Perception
I look at every event during my days as exactly what it is, attaching no expectations, desires or apprehensions to it. It does not always work, but I never stop working on it. That pure perception leads to....

Non-dual Awareness
I see and experience ongoing interactions without taking a position. Everything happens as it happens and I do not let myself get drawn into outcomes. My success rate at that is getting better. When I get it right, both of those disciplines lead to.....

Pure Presence
Pure presence has become the key to my lucidity. Pure.....presence. Existing in the moment. It allows me to observe my dreams from a wonderful vantage point and to slip into lucidity when the time and circumstance is right.

I am stable now. My life has become an unbroken continuity of consciousness between day and night. I know there are more horizons and I know I will cross them and look for even more, but through persistent and dedicated practice I have established lucid days and lucid nights.

I wish you all the best of what LDing offers for you.

Sleep well...and dream

Originally Posted by lenscaper

Into month nine......
...
Pure Presence
Pure presence has become the key to my lucidity.

Awesome, lenscaper, what a great achievement! I do hope to get back to something close to this myself in my own practice. In fact, I do believe *presence* in the present moment experience is the key to lucidity in both the waking and the dreaming states. Because if you are not there in that experience -- you with your self-awareness, memories, intentions, goals, and reflective ability and experience -- just who is it that is going to get lucid in that dream?

That is also exactly the term I use to describe the highest, most enjoyable state of dreaming experience: "vivid" and "present."

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Awesome, lenscaper, what a great achievement! I do hope to get back to something close to this myself in my own practice. In fact, I do believe *presence* in the present moment experience is the key to lucidity in both the waking and the dreaming states. Because if you are not there in that experience -- you with your self-awareness, memories, intentions, goals, and reflective ability and experience -- just who is it that is going to get lucid in that dream?

That is also exactly the term I use to describe the highest, most enjoyable state of dreaming experience: "vivid" and "present."

Wow, it's pretty crazy reading this. I too have gotten back into awareness(and lucidity) after having quit the usage of nicotine. That's beside the point though. I have come to the same conclusion of pure presence. This is the phrase that describes it perfectly that I, for some reason, did not even think of. I always described it to myself as a state of a natural flow of awareness blended perfectly with a soft amount of constant attention. I don't even think that's a good definition of it even now as pure presence leaves it in the dust.

I think we all 3 agree that this one thing, presence, is monumental. And that's pretty cool.