Thread: Matrix death theory/question

Perhaps this should have gone in 'Beyond dreaming'. Feel free to move it!

Ahh! I found a great example of what I meant by someone who was unaware of their dreaming:

Originally posted by Blizzz
Last night I was dreaming, and the dreams were so amazingly real that i did not want to believe my reality checks. It was just amazing.

The incredible thing is, that I was talking to my family about lucid dreaming and about reality checks. Then, I decided to demonstrate to them the finger through the palm reality check. Now I was 100% certain that I was in the real waking life. WRONG. After pushing a little bit, my finger went through my hand like my hand was rubber. Now I was really confused, because there was no way in hell I was dreaming. Or was I?

If I hadn't haphazardly done that reality check, i never would have known I was dreaming because there was nothing out of the ordinary going on.

Has anyone had this happen? Where you don't want to believe your reality checks?

taken from http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21498

Hey Wolffe!

Great question... really got me thinking. I must say that if you equate the dream world (or even the 4th spacial dimension) to the matrix, the similarities are uncanny! And then there are dozens of lines from the movie that make perfect sense to lucid dreamers. Quite a mind-bender.

But as to your question of what would happen if you died in your dream when you thought you were sure you weren't dreaming; my opinion is that you might then experience a sudden scene shift in your dream, possibly thinking you've entered the after-life or something, but I reckon you'd still be 'conscious' in your dream, even if you assumed you were now dead. Eventually you'd either slip into delta wave sleep again and return to REM sleep in a new dream, or your sleep would lighten to the point of waking up. But yeah, that again can be part of some circular logic pattern... How can you be sure it's reality?!

That does raise the question of people in coma's. Even though brain activity is at a minimum, what if you actually had some perception of a dream, while in a coma, that was so real it became your reality. And then you're stuck in it for months, even years... would there be a chance of someone like that getting killed in their dream, believing it to be reality, consequently dying, and the doctor telling the family that the patient unfortunately didn't pull through. How would you ever know what really happened, hmm?

Would we ever know? I don't think we ever will, unless we would experience this seperate reality in a coma ourselves, and fall into the category of those who did not live to tell the tale. But what is death? Does it really matter what we think or believe? If this reality, or life we live, has anything that follows, would we be able to stop, start or inlfuence it?

"Morpheus: If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain"

It is possible that the reality we perceive, is in fact being created by ourselves. But not knowing about something does not mean it exists or not. Gravity did not begin to "happen" when Newton wrote an equation to describe it for the first time. It has been there all along.

I guess what I'm aiming at is to say that we can never be sure whether we would die for real if we died in a dream, never be sure if we would die for real if we died in this life.In fact by not being sure of reality at all, how could we be sure that the past or future is real, or that we existed at all?

(Back to my padded room and a benzo nightcap...)

(the orderlies allowed me to post this last reply...)


Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

I love that quote. Possibly one of the best from the film, not only cinematically, but the way it's so complex to interpret! Anyway, what I was also thinking is, if death is possible due to events in such dreams, should we be more cautious about 'where we dream', how we go about studying it, that kinda thing? Also, I'd like to hear some more opinions about this concept, from some people who dont agree, or have disproving examples! Any of you out there? (Everyone else is still encouraged to reply though )

Maybe dreaming, life, and afterlife all fall into a hierarchy.

By this, I mean, when you die, you simply are sent back to the next highest level. If you die in a dream, you are sent back to real life (unless you are sent to another dream). And then, likewise, if you die in real life, you are sent (back?) to the afterlife (unless you are sent back to life [i.e. reincarnated]).

I dunno. What I present here is just a big "what if". I just pulled it from the top of my head as I read this topic. Just something to think about, I guess.

I doubt it. It seems difficult to substantiate, from a physiological point of view. Why should the body perish when the mind merely imagines it perishing in a fantasy? I'm pretty sure natural selection would remove such an ability from the gene pool. Evolution has a way of weeding out self-destruct mechanisms like that.

I thought this at first, when watching the matrix, but there are many reports of people dying due to giving up on life (given, they're already at death's door), and people who have tried to struggle on, past, and lived. Will seems to be an important thing, and it's well known that pain can be hallucinated, just as visual, sound, etc. types of stimulus. If you were to 'die' from an event in your dream, I believe that it wouldnt be physical damage as such, as the brain shutting down critical facilities throughout the body, similar to the effects generated by the brain when someone suffers critical injuries, and the brain shuts down various organ systems, to concerve energy etc. Just a sidethought.

Dear Wolffe,

You have a great deal more respect for movie screen-writers than they deserve. They are not in the least trying to present any physical or moral Truth. They only wish to develop conflicts and tensions in order to give texture to what would otherwise be a shallow plot. The most compelling form of conflict and tension is the mortal kind -- the kind that may be dangerously fatal. So we are presented with scenarios in which a purely spiritual adventure can result in bodily death. Stupid, huh? But people are believing it.

No. The Truth is quite the contrary. In fact, one of the most common Dream Motifs among experienced Dreamers is the one where Death is to encountered, and overcome. All those dreams in which Dreamers try to escape threats, enemies and dangers, and where the legs slow to almost a paralysis -- it is these dreams where we are supposed to turn and face Death. We are supposed to die. Now, many people immediately wake up, and THAT is how one dies in a Dream, buy waking up prematurely.

The True Objective of this Dream Motif is to allow one's self to be killed and then stay in the dream long enough to come back to life. It only takes less than 20 seconds. If one can be killed in a dream, and not be demoralized into waking up, and simply be content to be 'dead', then before the clock can tick 20 times, Life will return to your dream frame and you will be able to get up and brush yourself off.

With this Graduation from Dreams of Terror, where one has conquered Death, comes the sense of proven Fearlessness. From then on one is automatically courageous in one's dreams. True Dreaming can then begin.

Private message reply to Leo Volont:

Aha! Thankyou so much for a good disprovement of that rather worrying thought. You always have the answers ;P Have ya posted this in the topic? If not, would you mind if I did? I think people would be relieved and interested to see this!
Wolffe
[/b]

I have had both lucid and non-lucid dreams in which I died. Generally, the dream ended (and for me it's fade-to-white rather than fade-to-black); a couple of times, I ended up as a "ghost" (i.e., immaterial and not capable of interacting with the world). No physical problems ever resulted.

However, there's a variable in my situation that might change things: I'm a Christian, and as a result firmly believe in the permanence of the soul; so I know death is not the end of everything.

It would be interesting to see the experiences of an atheist with lucid dreaming and death--anyone like that out there?

wolfe, check this out:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134...tml?printable=1

an interesting spin on what to expect in the future, so take the time to read it.

First off, the whole idea of a non-lucid dream is ALWAYS that the dreaming ego believes the dream to be reality. If it's not so, it's automatically a lucid dream.
Then, why would you die from a dream? That's pretty idiotic, you don't even move your limbs so why would you just go ahead and die? Secondly, if that was the case, why would the subconsciousness intend to commit suicide? Bullshit. Thirdly a mental adventure isn't going to kill you because it's physiologically impossible.
I died in normal dreams before and usually the dream just ended there. For example, someone shot me in the head, and I broke down and the dream just faded. And BTW I don't belive in God or the persistence of mind after death. But that doesn't even matter in a dream, does it... You don't die... and if you know that you don't die there's no reason to fear it... In a normal dream you fear it because you think you really die and the lucid death doesn't have anything to do with real life death because you obviously keep living as you are aware that it'S just a dream.
A dream death doesn't have much to do with a real life death in any way.

*sigh* You have such a way with words.

Well, that's german arrogance. Learn to deal with it.

Originally posted by Korittke
First off, the whole idea of a non-lucid dream is ALWAYS that the dreaming ego believes the dream to be reality. If it's not so, it's automatically a lucid dream.
Then, why would you die from a dream? That's pretty idiotic, you don't even move your limbs so why would you just go ahead and die? Secondly, if that was the case, why would the subconsciousness intend to commit suicide? Bullshit. Thirdly a mental adventure isn't going to kill you because it's physiologically impossible.
I died in normal dreams before and usually the dream just ended there. For example, someone shot me in the head, and I broke down and the dream just faded. And BTW I don't belive in God or the persistence of mind after death. But that doesn't even matter in a dream, does it... You don't die... and if you know that you don't die there's no reason to fear it... In a normal dream you fear it because you think you really die and the lucid death doesn't have anything to do with real life death because you obviously keep living as you are aware that it'S just a dream.
A dream death doesn't have much to do with a real life death in any way.

Ok then, well in reply to this bit, at any rate, I already covered, but never mind. My reason for the first bit was that I'm sure that you could be in a controlled state, just as you would when wide awake, yet still be dreaming. This leading you to believe that you were 100% wide awake with no suspicion, valueing your life for everything it's worth. About the second part, the concept being that the brain being convinced that it has suffered major injuries and shutting down all it's major systems, to concerve the last critical functions of the body, and thus leading to death.

Originally posted by Callista
I have had both lucid and non-lucid dreams in which I died. Generally, the dream ended (and for me it's fade-to-white rather than fade-to-black); a couple of times, I ended up as a \"ghost\" (i.e., immaterial and not capable of interacting with the world). No physical problems ever resulted.

Usually when that happens to me, it is b/c I commit LD suicide. Usually, I wake up after. The only thing intense that can happen if I am in SP, & it is startling enough, I could jump out of my bed (but not all the way!)!!! Luckily, I am pretty much invincible after doing that, until I go back to bed, but I am ignored!

Originally posted by Korittke
First off, the whole idea of a non-lucid dream is ALWAYS that the dreaming ego believes the dream to be reality. If it's not so, it's automatically a lucid dream.
Then, why would you die from a dream? That's pretty idiotic, you don't even move your limbs so why would you just go ahead and die? Secondly, if that was the case, why would the subconsciousness intend to commit suicide? Bullshit. Thirdly a mental adventure isn't going to kill you because it's physiologically impossible.
I died in normal dreams before and usually the dream just ended there. For example, someone shot me in the head, and I broke down and the dream just faded. And BTW I don't belive in God or the persistence of mind after death. But that doesn't even matter in a dream, does it... You don't die... and if you know that you don't die there's no reason to fear it... In a normal dream you fear it because you think you really die and the lucid death doesn't have anything to do with real life death because you obviously keep living as you are aware that it'S just a dream.
A dream death doesn't have much to do with a real life death in any way.

You really need to hang in there the next time you get killed in a Dream. It only takes around 20 seconds before you come back to life. This is a pivotal experience for the Dream Ego, as you call it. The realization of Survival instills a courage and confidence not possessed before. Also, it keeps you from ever again being killed. In the Dream Realm, it turns one's Dream Body into something of what the Greeks would have termed a "Heroic Immortal".

First off, the whole idea of a non-lucid dream is ALWAYS that the dreaming ego believes the dream to be reality. If it's not so, it's automatically a lucid dream.
Then, why would you die from a dream? That's pretty idiotic, you don't even move your limbs so why would you just go ahead and die? Secondly, if that was the case, why would the subconsciousness intend to commit suicide? Bullshit. Thirdly a mental adventure isn't going to kill you because it's physiologically impossible.
I died in normal dreams before and usually the dream just ended there. For example, someone shot me in the head, and I broke down and the dream just faded. And BTW I don't belive in God or the persistence of mind after death. But that doesn't even matter in a dream, does it... You don't die... and if you know that you don't die there's no reason to fear it... In a normal dream you fear it because you think you really die and the lucid death doesn't have anything to do with real life death because you obviously keep living as you are aware that it'S just a dream.
A dream death doesn't have much to do with a real life death in any way. [/b]

You sir, are a jerk. A closed-minded one, at that. Sorry, but I felt like being as blunt as you were.

How can you know? Sure, maybe just having a dream where you die won't do it. I do believe in the statement that the body cannot live without the mind, it's just a question of "What can kill the mind?". Your subconscious doesn't really have to be suicidal, but this very point reminds me of something:

I heard something once about a condition some people have where they have a limb such as an arm, which they cannot control. This limb can seem to have a mind of it's own, and I recall hearing of at least one case where a person had an arm that repeatedly tried to strangle them. (!!!)

How do you know your subconscious isn't suicidal?

I am pretty sure that if a dream is real, your body reacts (in a chemical, reflex sense) the same way you would in real-life.

I'm pretty sure in a hard situation you would sweat and produce adrenalin. Kind of like how we are scared of nightmare.

I've heard of situations where you wake up when about to die - Probably a failsafe in our mind. I'm sure you could die by dreaming, if your body doesn't react to the threat.

And "heroic immortal" is different from how you feel in a normal LD, how?...

Our bodies have basic systmes (namely, sleep paralysis) that prevent us from moving during dreams, in order to keep us from hurting ourselves. I would expect we have similar systems that prevent our bodies from reacting to dream accidents in such a way that would endanger us, like going into shock, shutting down non-vital systems. As someone said earlier, our bodies are hardwired for survival, and should not be capable of being killed by a random whim of the subconscious.

There is one case I can think of that would allow a dream to cause death, albeit not directly: a deamer has some pre-existing medical condition, such as serious heart problems, incredibly high blood pressure, or something like that. Some event in a dream causes their heart to beat faster and blood pressure to rise (this needn't even be a bad event), resulting in a potentially deadly heart attack. Wow, that sounded rather pessimistic...

It's already been strongly proven (by anecdotal experience) that you cannot die within a dream, but your approach to this topic interested me, so I will reply to it in relection of the first post.

The fact that humans die whilst in the matrix adds to the story and makes it more engaging, if it didn't, the movie wouldn't have made as much money. Anyway...sleeping is a natural function, and our bodies certainyl know what to do when we sleep, surely our bodies know how to take care of our minds during sleep after all this time? Dreaming is a sort of organizing process for the mind during sleep. Anything can happen in them, even dying, which is merely just data from the dream. But if everything else you did in the dream doesn't transcend into your waking life body, why should dying suddenly be any different?

The matrix theory isn't too far removed, it's just exaggerated. It's too bad their technology didn't have death-proof systems for every death occuring within the program.