MANTRAS don't work???

Hey guys.

So I really wanna try DEILD'ing. But mantras don't seem to work on me, so I'm doing something wrong I think.

At first I said to myself before going to sleep 'I will wake up after my dream and play dead' but after 7 days of no succes I decided to find some info about mantras. So I found out you have to believe mantras to really work at first (well apparently I don't believe in myself that the mantra will work)

and what you had to do to believe in the mantras, is repeatedly say to yourself before going to sleep 'I will wake up at [time you wake up for school].
So I tried it for 5 days, and had no succes.

I have no idea how I get mantras to work, because I really need them :whyme:

What the heck do I do?

try going to bed a bit early, set your alarm for 2 hrs before you wake up for school, (then reset it for school if you don't have two) when you wake get out of bed for a bit, then listen to some clip on lucid dreaming for like 20 minutes maybe with your eyes closed (possibly visualizing a recent dream and imagining becoming lucid at some point, imagining doing a reality check, imagine doing some task). Then use a mantra like 'I will be aware I am dreaming' or some such as you fall back asleep.

Other things you should do first to be sucessful:
Learned to recall your dreams by attempting to do so for several minutes on each awakening
Journaling your recalled dreams
Finding recurring dream signs
Set a list of dream goals perhaps a set for each type of dream scene (city, trees, water etc)
RC during the day when dream signs are seen, briefly imagine that it is a dream and imagine choosing and doing a task

Wow thanks man! I will definetly try this. i already do the dream journal because I think remembering your dreams every night is simply just fun.

Mantras are not magical (well not this kind), so you need to understand what you want and give it time. Mantras about dreaming set up a background thought that should subtly resonate in your mind after you have stopped repeating it consciously. Picture a kid wants to box but flinches, he may repeat "I will not flinch" a few thousand times over a few weeks. This drives into his mind that thought. In learning to lucid dream when you do this as you fall asleep hopefully the thought gets stuck in your head like a song can. You are not really doing anything wrong, just stick to it. Try very simple phrases.

oh one last thing to add in is probably
see the dream sign that you found from dream journal of recalled dreams, and preform RC (as I count five fingers I recite five goals) then imagine you are in a dream and become lucid, also add this PERFORM SOME SORT OF STABILIZATION in your visuilization of the dream, then proceed to imagine doing a task

Main thing is to get used to having and following a plan for when you actually are in a dream and RC or just become lucid if you don't have a plan you won't last long and won't accomplish much. So definitely plan on stabilization like saying in the dream scape "this is my dream, I am lucid, I will accomplish my goal..." and also use some other form of stabilization like tilting your head as you move, or rubbing your hands or whatever

Though all this advice is excellent, here's something else that hasn't been mentioned:

Mantras aren't necessary for succesful DEILD's.

That's right, Casrasper, you can do DEILD's without ever having need of a mantra. In fact, I highly recommend that you do so, because a DEILD is a very simple, smooth transition from dream to wake and back to dream, and you want as little interference in the process as possible.

I don't know where you heard that you're supposed to repeat a mantra as part of DEILD, or even that you need to repeat one the night before in order to help wake up for a DEILD. You don't. A DEILD is initiated when you realize you are waking up from a dream, and that wake-up can occur at any time; there is no need to schedule it. Also, a DEILD should be done with as little distraction as possible, so adding a step to the process like a mantra might take your mind off your return to sleep and the dream.

Sure, if mantras come as second nature to you you could probably use one as a tool to hold your mind steady during a DEILD, but if you have trouble with mantras, using one during a DEILD will likely just be a distraction. I for one have had thousands of DEILD's, and never once used a mantra during or before them, if that helps.

So, instead of trying to add something to your DEILD process, I suggest that you simply remove something, and don't bother with mantras at all. If you're interested, you might want to go here to take Zoth's excellent DEILD tutorial; it might help clear things up. Also, I have a session on DEILD in my DVA WILD class, which you can find here.

Thank you all so much for awnsering. Sageous, these guides look great. It's a shame people can't find these guides easy on the internet (well, atleast not me). These tips will definetly help me so I will use every tip and Sageous thanks again for the guides.

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A DEILD is initiated when you realize you are waking up from a dream

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I think the context of the "mantra" here is more accurately described as "setting intention." And it is generally considered helpful to set intention to do things like notice wakings for WBTB and recalling dreams, and in the context of DEILD, to immediately initiate the attempt "when you realize you are waking up from a dream".

In order to get the most from setting intention, the desired goal should be really important to you, so that your brain's goal-seeking center is activated and on the lookout for it. If you simply repeat a phrase within investing meaning and importance, it's just words...

^^ That's all fine, and setting intention is a good thing to do at bedtime regardless, but my point was that DEILD's can certainly happen without ever using a mantra; the same, I think, might go for setting intention, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

Though it certainly might help, you really do not need to set a prospective memory cue (aka, setting intention) at bedtime to notice that you are waking up from -- or perhaps recently awoke from -- a dream. We all wake up, every morning, and very often do so directly from dreams (especially if we've slept more than five or six hours); it really isn't that hard to notice that awakening process occurring, especially if we've got a lucid mindset already in place thanks to lots of daywork and expectation.

On top of all this, DEILD's tend to work best when you are at least slightly lucid, so not only will you notice that you are waking up (thanks to your lucid mindset), but you will also be there, in the moment, to remember to return to sleep and your dream. Yes, DEILD's can also be done from NLD's, but even then you will know eventually that you are waking from a dream, and it's time to attempt a DEILD.

DEILD's are in my opinion and experience by far the simplest transition to lucidity to navigate, and there really is no reason to attach complications to them. A mantra (especially if done during the DEILD, but even if done at bedtime) or to a much lesser degree setting intention, are complications that add things that might not matter at all, come DEILD time. Doing things at bedtime is always good practice, but what happens then really has little impact on the "Here&Now" nature of a DEILD; so if you have trouble with mantras or have never found setting intention working for you (and it does not work well for everyone, BTW), then don't bother adding them to your list of things to do for DEILDing.

tl;dr: Because WILD (DEILD is a form of WILD) is a "Here&Now" event, prospective memory spurred by mantras or setting intent is not necessary for a successful DEILD. This is because you are already consciously present during an awakening to remember to attempt a DEILD on your own. So, I think it might be best to keep the DEILD process as simple as possible, and don't worry about adding extra things like mantras or setting intention, especially because their impact on the DEILD itself is minimal to non-existent.

I see now why you were talking about playing dead, I thought you wanted to DEILD from a Lucid so most of my advice was for going from a DILD to DEILD

You obviously are trying to DEILD upon awakening

So let me say that you wouldn't want to get up, you would want to transition straight in.

Often when I exit a dream I experience a visual effect like TV-signal-snow, it is at this time that I usually think initially "finally I'm falling asleep" but then I realize I am waking and was just in a dream, and I am actually 'falling awake'. It is then that I attempt to DEILD (tho I have rarely succeeded), I am not yet awake but am about to be, so it is easy for me to remain still, as to making it into a dream not so much as obviously I am at the end of REM. In fact the only times I have actually achieved DEILD was from a DILD, where I likely cut REM short by destabilizing in the Lucid dream, well before REM would have ended, hence the perfect opportunity to re-enter a Lucid.

So to acheive this state, you should not use a full alarm, instead I would recommend experimenting with drinking more and more water to see how much will cause you to wake after third cycle, but not so much that you are compelled to run to the bathroom (if it does at least you'll have a chance for extra dream recall by waking naturally at the end of REM in the middle of the night). By drinking just the right amount you will wake after the cycle and can then remain motionless with a mantra like yours or 'I will remain still when I awake' and attempt to DEILD from the non-lucid you just left.

The alternative is to predict when you will actually be in the middle of REM or better yet at the beginning (or near it), and to use a brief alarm. And use the mantra 'When the brief alarm sounds I will DEILD'. Then having set your alarm for the beginning of the third REM cycle approximately 240 - 250 minutes from when you fall asleep, you will briefly and barely wake during REM and can have maximum chance for DEILD.

The best alarm might be short-beep short-beep and then silence: just enough (volume/duration) to wake you from REM.

In an ideal situation your alarm would actually use direct REM detection, such as Infra Red eye tracking, or Brain Wave monitoring with EEG, or possibly something like Intel BASIS with its proprietary REM algorithm using core vs surface skin temp + 3D accelerometers + lots of other stuff too. That way you would ensure that you hit 3rd or 4th REM plus exactly some time delay like 30 - 120 seconds. But this sort of crap is expensive, not necessarily reliable, and possibly uncomfortable unless you love to sleep only on your back, with all sorts of crap strapped to you.

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setting intent is not necessary for a successful DEILD

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Agreed. But my point is not that it is necessary, but rather that it is helpful, and thus recommended in at least some DEILD tutorials. It is never a bad idea to go over one's plans for the night. We know that even in LDs, access to memory can be very iffy. If the difference for a particular person between remembering to be mindful of the dream end/transition in order to DEILD or forgetting to even notice it is setting intention, then it's a fruitful practice.

I emerged from a fun non-lucid dream, and saw the flashing in my eyes and was 'falling awake', I remained motionless (except for breathing) and attempted to DEILD. Tingle tingle tingle... failure :) he he :)

I would have to agree with Sageous that it is much more likely to succeed from a Lucid

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Originally Posted by cooleymd

I emerged from a fun non-lucid dream, and saw the flashing in my eyes and was 'falling awake', I remained motionless (except for breathing) and attempted to DEILD. Tingle tingle tingle... failure :) he he :)

I would have to agree with Sageous that it is much more likely to succeed from a Lucid

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Of course. In that case you know where you're coming from in advance and where you're (hopefully) going to. There's no period of disorientation to muddle through.

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Originally Posted by casrasper

Hey guys.

So I really wanna try DEILD'ing. But mantras don't seem to work on me, so I'm doing something wrong I think.

At first I said to myself before going to sleep 'I will wake up after my dream and play dead' but after 7 days of no succes I decided to find some info about mantras. So I found out you have to believe mantras to really work at first (well apparently I don't believe in myself that the mantra will work)

and what you had to do to believe in the mantras, is repeatedly say to yourself before going to sleep 'I will wake up at [time you wake up for school].
So I tried it for 5 days, and had no succes.

I have no idea how I get mantras to work, because I really need them :whyme:

What the heck do I do?

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Search for Sageous, read his tutorials. I red them yesterday and achieved a WILD this very night.

Thank you all for awnsering. GoatHammer, I can't find anything from Sageous on DEILD. WILD is a no-go for me (maybe for later) because I'm way too alert while attempting WILD and I have no idea what I have to espect etcetra.

^^ I think the only easily found place where I talked about DEILD was here, in a session of my DVA WILD class.

It's a bit off topic, but I would suggest that you also take a look at the entire WILD class, because it does go into a little more depth about what to expect -- and what to ignore -- as you move through a WILD transition. Also, I for one take a very long time to fall asleep in the best of cases, often as long as 2 hours, and I am able to WILD... I would even argue that a certain difficulty falling back to sleep could be an asset with WILD, because your waking-life awareness more easily stays in the forefront of your dive, where it ought to be.

Thanks I couldn't find the link anymore so I searched on your name but I forgot the link in the post above. I will look into the WILD classes for sure.

Hey guys.

I'm seeing progress! Since 3 nights or so, I have woken up one or two times, mostly with my eyes closed. Although I wouldn't call myself fully consious at that moment, more like 60% consious/groggy. But when I wake up like that I DO emediatly think about remembering my dreams but a few times I forgot my dream so I emediatly got back to sleep.

This morning I was about to have sex with in my (ofcourse not lucid) dream and I problably woke up from excitement, but I didn't attempt DEILD when waking up (I believe my eyes were closed). So that's what I mean with the not being fully
consious.

But because I'm making steps, and the waking up actually works a question came to my mind:
When I wake up and have recalled my dream,
What exactly do I have to visualize? The whole dream over and over again (my dreams mostly play in diffrent dreamscapes, that doesn't make them entire diffrent dreams right?) or just the end of the dream, and vizualize myself in it in first-person?

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Originally Posted by casrasper

Hey guys.

I'm seeing progress! Since 3 nights or so, I have woken up one or two times, mostly with my eyes closed. Although I wouldn't call myself fully consious at that moment, more like 60% consious/groggy. But when I wake up like that I DO emediatly think about remembering my dreams but a few times I forgot my dream so I emediatly got back to sleep.

This morning I was about to have sex with in my (ofcourse not lucid) dream and I problably woke up from excitement, but I didn't attempt DEILD when waking up (I believe my eyes were closed). So that's what I mean with the not being fully
consious.

But because I'm making steps, and the waking up actually works a question came to my mind:
When I wake up and have recalled my dream,
What exactly do I have to visualize? The whole dream over and over again (my dreams mostly play in diffrent dreamscapes, that doesn't make them entire diffrent dreams right?) or just the end of the dream, and vizualize myself in it in first-person?

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I am glad you are making progress. You do want to stay groggy. What you visualize is unimportant. In fact actively visualizing to much may keep you awake. Keep it simple. If the last dream was at a beach then just picturing that you are walking on a beach is enough. Do not worry about details.

Thank you! That makes everything clear! (ps you are all replying so fast that's really helpful too)

@casrasper

i am glad you are doing some progress :)

the story regarding Mantras...well...the most recipes wont tell you that emotions associated with such a Mantra is more important than the word itself. if you repeat a word ever and ever with no feelings for what you want to achieve than mostly nothing will happen.

next time when doing Mantras add emotions in them...feel how it to be being ludic in your dream. your subconscious needs some time to become "programmed" but it will work sooner or later.
dont give up...become a warrior who dives deeper into the great mysteries :tardis:

i myself work with Mantras and find them to be the most potent method for my person regarding lucid dreaming!

cheers and have fun :muffin:

Thank you SonatArctica, and sorry for the late reply. :cheeky:

I'm currently a bit stuck at waking up after my dreams and be kind of concious, but not fully (so that's good). But I can't seem to lay still and keep my eyes closed when waking up.
I currently use this mantra every night: ''I wake up after my dream and don't move a muscle''. (Yeah I know you wake up after every dream but this helps more :rolleyes:) but the second part doesn't seem to work. With moving no muscle I include my eyelids. I've been using this mantra for about two weeks or so. But yeah, I feel like I'm a bit stuck.

I've tried to 'train' myself to recognize the blackness of my eyelids, but I don't really know how to do that exept to close them for half a minute every morning and night. But I have no info about that so I have no idea how long that should take.

I will try to add emotion to it tho, maybe that will change the whole mantra idea for me.