Thread: Memory: the Forgotten Fundamental

What about the use of memory in a lucid dream, by way of memorization? Has anyone looked into that? It's clear the remembering or recall aspect of memory has taken the spotlight among lucid dreamers, but what about its equally important counterpart? What place does memorization take in the overall concept of memory and in a dream, specifically, a lucid dream? If we memorize something from within the dream, how much can/will it get skewed by the overall level of awareness one has while lucid? What other factors would come at play? Could one effectively recall the information exactly as it was intended to, once he/she wakes up? This is something that's been on the back of my mind for some time, one I've been wanting to test. I've read countless of people address that some of the novelty is lost from dreams when awake, and lucid dreams are no exception. Sometimes the experience itself is filled with numerous instances that include information intriguing to the dreamer. Perhaps words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences. Some of these get lost in translation when transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. All this time the focus on memory has been put to use after the dream ends. Perhaps it's time we should work on it from within the inside as well. Finding the implications of memorization when lucid dreaming could prove beneficial.

Originally Posted by Silence11

What about the use of memory in a lucid dream, by way of memorization? Has anyone looked into that? It's clear the remembering or recall aspect of memory has taken the spotlight among lucid dreamers, but what about its equally important counterpart? What place does memorization take in the overall concept of memory and in a dream, specifically, a lucid dream? If we memorize something from within the dream, how much can/will it get skewed by the overall level of awareness one has while lucid? What other factors would come at play? Could one effectively recall the information exactly as it was intended to, once he/she wakes up? This is something that's been on the back of my mind for some time, one I've been wanting to test. I've read countless of people address that some of the novelty is lost from dreams when awake, and lucid dreams are no exception. Sometimes the experience itself is filled with numerous instances that include information intriguing to the dreamer. Perhaps words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences. Some of these get lost in translation when transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. All this time the focus on memory has been put to use after the dream ends. Perhaps it's time we should work on it from within the inside as well. Finding the implications of memorization when lucid dreaming could prove beneficial.

In my experience, remembering the specifics about any one thing in a dream leads to forgetting a majority of the information about the rest. Most of how well I memorize what happens in a dream depends entirely on how well I'm able to go through it in my head as soon as I wake up, lucid or otherwise. My primary method has always been to run through the dream backwards without focusing too much on any one thing, and it works pretty well. Any of the times I've decided to focus on something very specific, it interrupts the entire process of replaying the dream to dedicate it to long term memory so thoroughly that I'm really only able to remember that specific part in any kind of detail, and I can even lose chunks of what happened altogether in other parts of the dream. Dream memories are time and thought sensitive. How well I'm able to get any semblance of those chunks back depends on how well the other parts I do remember relate to those chunks. Usually each chunk has some kind of "hook" (that in itself isn't identifiable, I just know remembering whatever it is brings back another chunk of the dream which may have most of its information other than the bare minimum of what happened lost) that tethers it to another chunk. If I've forgotten the medium and small level details of a chunk, chances are the "hook" to connect it to another chunk is lost as well, and I can't trigger any recall of the lost chunks. At the same time, replaying the entire dream without focusing on anything in particular means losing most fine and all ultra fine details in all the chunks. I think if you want to memorize something specific you need to be prepared to lose almost everything else (unless you just get lucky).

Actually there is a method for transferring information from the waking state to the dream and the other way around. It is described in Daniel Love's book 'Are you Dreaming?' as 'The Dream Peg System'. It consists of using the peg system of mnemonics to put dream elements while in the dream in the pegs and retrieve them when you wake up or to put other information (like dream goals) in the pegs while awake and retrieve them while in the dream.

It works!

P.S: I do not want to give the full description of the technique here as I think it would be unfair to Daniel. You can either try to figure it out by checking the peg system from mnemonics or get his book

Interesting conversation guys, but keep in mind that this thread is about the role of memory during a LD, and not about recalling the dream afterward. Dream recall is certainly important, but it has also been thoroughly and repetitively covered elsewhere.

That said, I do think Silence raised an interesting point initially (I hope you don't mind my parsing your post, Silence):

Originally Posted by Silence11

What about the use of memory in a lucid dream, by way of memorization? Has anyone looked into that? It's clear the remembering or recall aspect of memory has taken the spotlight among lucid dreamers, but what about its equally important counterpart? What place does memorization take in the overall concept of memory and in a dream, specifically, a lucid dream?

If you are fully lucid in a dream, meaning you have access to memory, remembering what you experience during the dream will be exactly the same as it would be during waking-life. So any memorization methods, tricks, or skills you might call upon during waking-life will be there for you during a LD.

If we memorize something from within the dream, how much can/will it get skewed by the overall level of awareness one has while lucid?

If you are memorizing it lucidly, it will be no more skewed than any other memory generated during waking-life consciousness. Your overall awareness will tend to match your waking-life awareness during a LD in which memory is accessed, so the only real challenge to the accuracy or quality of the memory you are making rests on your own interest in remembering properly, and on the openness with which you witnessed your dream moment in the first place (meaning, if you incorrectly interpret the events or "messages" during a dream, that interpretation will be just as incorrect when you remember it upon waking -- it's better, I think, to simply absorb important LD moments or imagery, as presented, and worry about interpreting later).

The "skewing" of the meaning or actual imagery of LD's occurs, I think, not during the LD, but upon waking, as a dreamer attempts to explain her experience in a way that lines up with her waking-life experience, knowledge, and expectations; or, perhaps, in a way that makes the dream more say, exciting, deeply meaningful, or retellable than it may originally have been. After an exciting or emotionally rich LD, we may have a tendency to do a little embellishing, or "filling in the blanks," during our recounting of the dream, just to lend some explanation for the special feelings that occurred during it. For instance, let's say that during a LD you decide that you don't like the scene you've been given, and sweep it away with a gesture:

Let's say that dream scene was a bar populated with attractive young partyers. Well, the actual moment of "deleting" the scene may have been nothing more than a simple rippling of the image and then the bar was just not there anymore, and you were feeling pretty powerful or maybe very free as you set about exploring the dream scene you've transitioned to by erasing the bar -- and that's of course how you would initially remember it... but when it comes time, upon waking, to describe it (to yourself and others), you might tend to add in some rationale for deleting the bar, perhaps a plot device (bad tequila?) that never occurred, or perhaps some action (i.e., pretty girls clinging to barstools during the windy mayhem of the deletion) that better portrays or substantiates the depth of emotion you felt at the time, even if that action never happened during the dream.

Because we are creatures of narrative, and sometimes allow that narrative to run a little wild when we're remembering major events in our lives, it is important to avoid skewing our memories to make them better, or more sensible... especially because this embellishment tends to bury, beneath a large pile of mundane, familiar plot or image additions, the original depth of the lucid moment itself. And, of course, all this skewing occurs after we are awake, and not during the dream!

Could one effectively recall the information exactly as it was intended to, once he/she wakes up?

Of course one could do so. It isn't always easy, for reasons I noted above, and sometimes, especially with dreams of a transcendental nature, it is almost impossible, but, since you experienced the moment with full access to memory, it has already been recorded as a conscious memory -- exactly as you experienced it/it was intended.... How you access that memory and interpret it later on is where things tend to fall apart, and is no fault of memory during the dream.

This is something that's been on the back of my mind for some time, one I've been wanting to test. I've read countless of people address that some of the novelty is lost from dreams when awake, and lucid dreams are no exception. Sometimes the experience itself is filled with numerous instances that include information intriguing to the dreamer. Perhaps words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences.

I think this happens in waking-life as well, and more often than we might think, including "...words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences". Paying attention and being open to the real subtleties of experience are very difficult processes whether we are awake or dreaming; mastering those processes might have you finding memories much easier to properly recall, store, and integrate into your life -- as they were initially formed, and not as you chose to see them afterwords.

Some of these get lost in translation when transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. All this time the focus on memory has been put to use after the dream ends. Perhaps it's time we should work on it from within the inside as well. Finding the implications of memorization when lucid dreaming could prove beneficial.

Yes, it certainly would prove beneficial -- especially if you are able to work from a starting point, during the dream, that acknowledges that any memory you are forming is as real as any conscious memory you might form in waking-life... how you treat that memory later on is where all the haziness and mystery of LD recall resides, I believe.

I'm out of time, but if you're curious, I go into this a bit more in these two threads (feel free to necro!):

Dreams of Transcendence

A Treatise on Proof

Originally Posted by Erfeyah

Actually there is a method for transferring information from the waking state to the dream and the other way around. It is described in Daniel Love's book 'Are you Dreaming?' as 'The Dream Peg System'. It consists of using the peg system of mnemonics to put dream elements while in the dream in the pegs and retrieve them when you wake up or to put other information (like dream goals) in the pegs while awake and retrieve them while in the dream.

It works!

P.S: I do not want to give the full description of the technique here as I think it would be unfair to Daniel. You can either try to figure it out by checking the peg system from mnemonics or get his book

I'm familiar with the peg system and find it quite interesting, though I haven't put it to use yet. I'm curious to find out about the "Dream Peg System" that Daniel describes in his book. So, might have to pick up that book and give it a read. Thanks for the recommendation! Now:

Originally Posted by Sageous

Interesting conversation guys, but keep in mind that this thread is about the role of memory during a LD, and not about recalling the dream afterward. Dream recall is certainly important, but it has also been thoroughly and repetitively covered elsewhere.

True, I guess we got a little carried away with recall in there for a bit (although, memorization from within a dream was included somewhere in there as well, I believe). Anyway, to continue on topic:

(I hope you don't mind my parsing your post, Silence):

Not at all Sageous, parsing is always welcomed, more so when the posts themselves allow a great deal of thinking, questioning and pondering, like the ones brought forth by this thread.

If you are fully lucid in a dream, meaning you have access to memory, remembering what you experience during the dream will be exactly the same as it would be during waking-life. So any memorization methods, tricks, or skills you might call upon during waking-life will be there for you during a LD.

You are correct, I hadn’t considered this before when I made my initial statement. I’ll agree that the processes that govern memory and its components should work exactly the same, regardless of the waking or dream state, should one attain full lucidity. That being said…

If you are memorizing it lucidly, it will be no more skewed than any other memory generated during waking-life consciousness.

Ah, but is it really?

Your overall awareness will tend to match your waking-life awareness during a LD in which memory is accessed, so the only real challenge to the accuracy or quality of the memory you are making rests on your own interest in remembering properly, and on the openness with which you witnessed your dream moment in the first place...

Agreed, for the most part. While all those variables all factor in when storing and retrieving a memory, things like time, frequency, awareness and, therefore, the circumstances that englobe the experience itself, all four must also be considered. Especially when referring to awareness and its link with incoming stimuli, as I feel the need to point out a difference with both when in a dream and awake. But more on that below.

(meaning, if you incorrectly interpret the events or "messages" during a dream, that interpretation will be just as incorrect when you remember it upon waking -- it's better, I think, to simply absorb important LD moments or imagery, as presented, and worry about interpreting later).

Couldn’t agree more. Intellectualizing anything you experience before it’s successfully stored in memory would only result in the tampering of the memory itself you wished to memorize. Better to capture the event in its original essence, then evaluate it once a more favorable opportunity arises.

Also, a quick note: when you speak of remembering, I don’t know if you mean it as in recalling, memorizing, or both. Both words can be used interchangeably which is why I prefer to separate the terms and ditch remembering altogether. So, an apology as this relatively short use of words would most likely cause me to misunderstand some of what you typed up to here, and what follows.

The "skewing" of the meaning or actual imagery of LD's occurs, I think, not during the LD, but upon waking, as a dreamer attempts to explain her experience in a way that lines up with her waking-life experience, knowledge, and expectations; or, perhaps, in a way that makes the dream more say, exciting, deeply meaningful, or retellable than it may originally have been. After an exciting or emotionally rich LD, we may have a tendency to do a little embellishing, or "filling in the blanks," during our recounting of the dream, just to lend some explanation for the special feelings that occurred during it.

True, although we could “easily” solve this if we ignore the need for interpretation from the beginning, the way we established above.

For instance, let's say that during a LD you decide that you don't like the scene you've been given, and sweep it away with a gesture:

Let's say that dream scene was a bar populated with attractive young partyers. Well, the actual moment of "deleting" the scene may have been nothing more than a simple rippling of the image and then the bar was just not there anymore, and you were feeling pretty powerful or maybe very free as you set about exploring the dream scene you've transitioned to by erasing the bar -- and that's of course how you would initially remember it... but when it comes time, upon waking, to describe it (to yourself and others), you might tend to add in some rationale for deleting the bar, perhaps a plot device (bad tequila?) that never occurred, or perhaps some action (i.e., pretty girls clinging to barstools during the windy mayhem of the deletion) that better portrays or substantiates the depth of emotion you felt at the time, even if that action never happened during the dream.

Because we are creatures of narrative, and sometimes allow that narrative to run a little wild when we're remembering major events in our lives, it is important to avoid skewing our memories to make them better, or more sensible... especially because this embellishment tends to bury, beneath a large pile of mundane, familiar plot or image additions, the original depth of the lucid moment itself. And, of course, all this skewing occurs after we are awake, and not during the dream!

This is where I wanted to get at, and while I admit everything you say makes sense and is true, I can’t help but feel a little anxious with that last statement. The reason is, I believe, because several of the variables at play are being left out of the equation: time, frequency, awareness, and incoming stimuli. Now, what I mean with time adds up to no more than the amount it takes for one to start the memorizing process and how much of it elapses before that same memory is retrieved. Likewise, (and tied with the first) with frequency I mean the number of times we participate (whether through intention or not) in the whole memorization and retrieval cycle. So, it’s not only critical WHEN I start to memorize, but also how many times I engage in recalling that memory. Both concepts aid in preserving the information to memorize as it originally exists. In addition, the two can also be affected by awareness and the sensory input (stimuli) we experience as we continue dreaming. I’ll admit these initial factors show no difference individually when compared to waking consciousness. They do, however, when influenced by the two of the remaining variables.

With awareness, it’s important to notice that, although one can have access to memory in a dream exactly as in waking consciousness, that same awareness can dissipate as fast as it originated, hindering one’s access to memory by default. So, there’s definitely some variables that factor in here as well, like time, experience, and sensory input provided by the dream. So, while I could access memory to remember that I have a sleeping body (or that I'm asleep) and, in this manner, achieve a fully lucid state, I still need to put forth with how long the dream is, time in which one could get distracted and loose self-awareness, exactly as it happens in wakefulness. The only difference is, the sensory input we receive from a dream, especially when lucid, differs from that of the waking world.

The stories we live out in our dreams are almost always unlike any waking life experience. Think about it, we can live and relive any fantasy we so desire, embark on adventures we can only “dream of” when awake, accomplish things only limited by our imagination, and transcend the experience altogether. Even the most mundane of things appear magical the first time we lucidly set foot on dreamland. It’s like living in a state of almost uninterrupted euphoria. All these number of stimuli can distract the dreamer from self-awareness and thus, from access to memory. Now look at waking life as we know it, and, although life is filled with numerous instances that can work against awareness and memory, they are “nothing” compared to what a dream has to offer. Particularly when the most surreal and unique of events occur leaps and bounds more frequently in dreams. And we haven’t even touched upon what the dreamer’s experience with self-awareness and memory can do to influence the memory process, specifically the methods he/she uses to memorize the information at hand.

So, provided with the example above, perhaps we find ourselves at the bar and engage in conversation with one of the pretty girls sitting nearby. We soon realize, to our amazement, that what’s being conveyed throughout the conversation is insightful and beneficial to us, so we wish to memorize such singular occasion. However we choose to do so is nonimportant (it really is, but that's something for another time). But now comes the challenge, after we feel we’re done with the activity. Should we intentionally wake up from the dream, or should it be the last incident of the night, our memory of it would have to be subject to the variables of time, frequency, how well we memorized the information, and whether it was tampered in any way, shape or form. On the other hand, should the dream continue, all previous factors continue to play, plus our ability to deal with incoming stimuli. So, perhaps the bar ripples out of existence and I decide to fly to the nearest planet, and maybe I find a dragon to slay by a castle nearby, and the dream continues for however long it cares to drag on. Then, we could say, the skewing occurs not only when awake, but also while we sleep.

Of course one could do so. It isn't always easy, for reasons I noted above, and sometimes, especially with dreams of a transcendental nature, it is almost impossible, but, since you experienced the moment with full access to memory, it has already been recorded as a conscious memory -- exactly as you experienced it/it was intended.... How you access that memory and interpret it later on is where things tend to fall apart, and is no fault of memory during the dream.

I believe the response above should answer this as well but, feel free to point out if you differ!

I think this happens in waking-life as well, and more often than we might think, including "...words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences". Paying attention and being open to the real subtleties of experience are very difficult processes whether we are awake or dreaming; mastering those processes might have you finding memories much easier to properly recall, store, and integrate into your life -- as they were initially formed, and not as you chose to see them afterwords.

We continue to agree here haha!

I'm out of time, but if you're curious, I go into this a bit more in these two threads (feel free to necro!):

I’m most definitely curious and will look at both threads right away, thanks for the suggestions!

^^ Hmm.

I think maybe you're putting way to much weight on memorizing, Silence.

Yes, sometimes we have to spend time and focus to consciously remember something (i.e., facts for a test), and usually that memorizing involves attempting to retain something we're not too interested in retaining (i.e., facts for a test). But I think what you might be overlooking is that remembering is almost always done pretty much automatically; our brains are incredibly effective at storing information all by themselves, without any conscious input... if it matters, we will very likely remember it; if it matters a lot (like a LD), we will very likely remember it in excellent detail -- especially if the thing we are remembering is extremely unusual (like a dream).

I think this might explain why I didn't use the word "memorize" pretty much anywhere on this this thread. To me, in the context of LD'ing, memorizing really isn't an issue at all, because my mind is fully capable of retaining the stuff I'm experiencing just fine on its own -- just as it does in waking-life, when I'm consciously experiencing an interesting, unusual, or particularly exciting moment. If we were required to actually memorize every important conscious event we encounter, I think a lot of us would have very little pasts to which to refer!

So we're probably talking about two different things here: I am discussing the presence of memory in dreams, and that presence being more than enough to create conscious memories of LD's that are every bit as clear as waking-life memories, if not more so, and you are discussing manually committing to memory the things that occur in a LD.

For me this sort of manual commitment to memory -- memorizing -- certainly does come up now and then (i.e., remembering lines of text, specific faces on DC's, or what exactly that girl at the bar was saying), and I will need to make an effort to remember them, using whatever conscious trick might be necessary, as I think I mentioned above. And yes, I will occasionally wake myself up if some complex detail occurs that I know I have to write down to accurately remember, but the vast majority of my LD content gets remembered just like any important conscious event: automatically.

All that said, at the risk of basically repeating what I just said, I noticed a couple of bits in your post that encouraged response:

Originally Posted by Silence11

You are correct, I hadn’t considered this before when I made my initial statement. I’ll agree that the processes that govern memory and its components should work exactly the same, regardless of the waking or dream state, should one attain full lucidity. That being said…

Isn't that enough?

You very nicely summarized the role of memory in a LD; why complicate its presence? But still...

If you are memorizing it lucidly, it will be no more skewed than any other memory generated during waking-life consciousness.

Ah, but is it really?

Yes, I think it is; really.

We are just as capable of skewing waking-life events as we are LD-life events. In fact, given their unusual nature, I wonder if dreams are actually easier to remember without embellishment than waking-life events.

Agreed, for the most part. While all those variables all factor in when storing and retrieving a memory, things like time, frequency, awareness and, therefore, the circumstances that englobe the experience itself, all four must also be considered. Especially when referring to awareness and its link with incoming stimuli, as I feel the need to point out a difference with both when in a dream and awake. But more on that below.

All four of those things must be considered when memorizing, and not remembering in general, I think. Again, intentionally memorizing a LD is not generally necessary (hopefully I won't repeat that too many more times...)

Also, a quick note: when you speak of remembering, I don’t know if you mean it as in recalling, memorizing, or both. Both words can be used interchangeably which is why I prefer to separate the terms and ditch remembering altogether. So, an apology as this relatively short use of words would most likely cause me to misunderstand some of what you typed up to here, and what follows.

Here, again, is where I did indeed misunderstand you. To me, memorizing is very different from recall, because recall is what you do after you've memorized (or naturally remembered). This is especially true upon waking from a NLD: the thing you are doing as you struggle to retain a fading NLD is the memorizing part, and recall is what you're rewarded with after you've successfully memorized the dream. So recall is a noun first (the stored memory, thanks to your memorizing the NLD), and doesn't become a verb until later when you remember/recall the dream that has already been stored in memory. In a literal sense, when initially remembering/memorizing a NLD, you are "calling" it back to consciousness in the hopes of filing it away, and recall comes later, when you are calling the stored dream up again. [Note that I am intentionally using "NLD's" here, because LD's -- being conscious events -- don't require the same effort to be remembered upon waking.]

... that all sounded a lot better in my head, but I've no time to rewrite...

And, of course, all this skewing occurs after we are awake, and not during the dream!

This is where I wanted to get at, and while I admit everything you say makes sense and is true, I can’t help but feel a little anxious with that last statement. The reason is, I believe, because several of the variables at play are being left out of the equation: time, frequency, awareness, and incoming stimuli.

I think, from the perspective of your functional memory (the part of your mind that does remembering without much, if any, conscious input... please forgive if I'm using the wrong term), that those variables really don't matter; if a conscious event is important, it will be stored, sometimes whether you like it or not (i.e., nightmares). You really do not need to make an effort to memorize a LD, especially if the event of its occurrence is important to you (which it generally is); your mind will do the heavy lifting for you, memory-wise.

With awareness, it’s important to notice that, although one can have access to memory in a dream exactly as in waking consciousness, that same awareness can dissipate as fast as it originated, hindering one’s access to memory by default.

Yes it can, but if self-awareness fades, so does lucidity, bringing you back to trying to remember a NLD, which is not a waking-life-consciousness event (meaning, also, that memorization during the dream is rendered impossible anyway).

Just as a sort of aside, that same dissipation of awareness happens in waking-life, pretty much all the time... and yet our minds are chock-full of memories!

So, there’s definitely some variables that factor in here as well, like time, experience, and sensory input provided by the dream. So, while I could access memory to remember that I have a sleeping body (or that I'm asleep) and, in this manner, achieve a fully lucid state, I still need to put forth with how long the dream is, time in which one could get distracted and loose self-awareness, exactly as it happens in wakefulness. The only difference is, the sensory input we receive from a dream, especially when lucid, differs from that of the waking world.

Again, all this has to do with memorizing, and not simply storing conscious memories naturally. And still again, that differing sensory input can be a plus for remembering a LD, because it is so unusual.

The stories we live out in our dreams are almost always unlike any waking life experience. Think about it, we can live and relive any fantasy we so desire, embark on adventures we can only “dream of” when awake, accomplish things only limited by our imagination, and transcend the experience altogether. Even the most mundane of things appear magical the first time we lucidly set foot on dreamland. It’s like living in a state of almost uninterrupted euphoria. All these number of stimuli can distract the dreamer from self-awareness and thus, from access to memory.

That all sounds pretty memorable to me!

Now look at waking life as we know it, and, although life is filled with numerous instances that can work against awareness and memory, they are “nothing” compared to what a dream has to offer. Particularly when the most surreal and unique of events occur leaps and bounds more frequently in dreams

.
...Still more things that make LD's easily remembered, I think...

Waking-life is filled with infinite instances that go unremembered, mostly because they have nothing to do with you; in a dream, however, everything has something to do with you because, well, dreams are You.

So instances in a dream are both far more finite (even when it doesn't seem so, in the dream) and directly relevant to you, meaning, I think, that a few lucid moments in even the most surreal or complex of dreams might be more easily remembered than a few moments in waking-life.

So, provided with the example above, perhaps we find ourselves at the bar and engage in conversation with one of the pretty girls sitting nearby. We soon realize, to our amazement, that what’s being conveyed throughout the conversation is insightful and beneficial to us, so we wish to memorize such singular occasion.

Now there, I agree, is a time where memorizing would come into play... and perhaps nicely illustrates the two different things we're talking about. At the risk of more repetition:

Yes, if I were to decide that something the girl was telling me mattered, I would make every effort to remember her words as best I could (I might even immediately wake up and write it down, with the hope of returning to the dream though DEILD/WILD). But I would be doing that memorizing in the context of a moment that is already being automatically stored, globally, in my memory as well, regardless of my intent. In fact, my effort to remember the girl's words would probably strengthen my overall memory of the moment, simply because I am so focused on it. So in this case both memorizing and forming a general memory of the moment would be occurring simultaneously, if perhaps independently.

However we choose to do so is nonimportant (it really is, but that's something for another time). But now comes the challenge, after we feel we’re done with the activity. Should we intentionally wake up from the dream, or should it be the last incident of the night, our memory of it would have to be subject to the variables of time, frequency, how well we memorized the information, and whether it was tampered in any way, shape or form. On the other hand, should the dream continue, all previous factors continue to play, plus our ability to deal with incoming stimuli. So, perhaps the bar ripples out of existence and I decide to fly to the nearest planet, and maybe I find a dragon to slay by a castle nearby, and the dream continues for however long it cares to drag on. Then, we could say, the skewing occurs not only when awake, but also while we sleep.

All true, but it again relates to memorizing, and not the natural memory of the dream. And yes, in either case, distance from the event can lead to skewing -- even if we're still asleep (but also still lucid) -- so that would certainly need to be dealt with.

I’m most definitely curious and will look at both threads right away, thanks for the suggestions!

Thanks! Hopefully I say things a bit more clearly there.


tl;dr: I think maybe you're putting way to much weight on memorizing, Silence. LD's, like any other important conscious event, can be remembered without intentionally, manually, memorizing them.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Hmm.

I think maybe you're putting way to much weight on memorizing, Silence.

Hahaha, I knew it! Just for the record, I wasn't putting too much weight on "memorization," but ALL the weight on it from the start. So, my fault on that regard, but it was intended, as described by my initial two posts. It's just that I had read through the whole thread and everywhere I looked there was no mention of memorization at all. Perhaps it's a subject almost no one felt the need to elaborate on (which struck me as odd), and, seeing as you left memory as the object for discussion, I thought, why not discuss about it? My studies (like any other you could say) require a lot of memorization, so I figured that working on it from within the dream might be of any help when lucid dreaming.

With that out of the way, I'm still left with a couple more questions after what you wrote, although I feel we have certainly reached a middle ground in terms of our understanding of the use of memorization in lucid dreams. What I mean is that yes, I, once again, have to agree, intentionally memorizing the "memorable" experiences that occur while dreaming would result in a waste of one's time. It is unnecessary, as instances like these are very easy to remember/recall without much effort. Nonetheless, my question wasn't directed to those experiences at all, but to the number of instances where one would feel compelled to memorize: specific events that run parallel to those memorable experiences, but which are not as surreal or unique as them. Also, details within the dream that aren't easy to notice but might be of importance to the dreamer, details that could extend beyond what would be reasonably required to remember without intention. And what about dreams that extend for long periods of time (+ 10-20 min. to give an example), where the number of distractions will undoubtedly increase, or (and my personal favorite) using your creativity/imagination to create something you intend to recreate when awake.

At the end of the day, if the topic of memorization is unrelated to the original intention of this thread, and you wish to stop any further discussion on the subject, I have no other option but to stop here. Still, I must say the role of posts were definitely insightful, for as long as they lasted.

I do have one last question: for the sake of not letting this thread left forgotten, what do you think (or anybody else) would be another interesting topic for discussion?