Thread: Memory: the Forgotten Fundamental

^^ I didn't say WILD's are higher quality than DILD's, and had not intended to imply that. I purposely never used words like "higher quality," and put "better" in quotes to point out that it is a thing people are saying, and not what I hold to be true.

DILD's can certainly have the same quality as WILD's; perhaps even better sometimes: because DILD's tend to be had a little earlier in the night or during heavier sleep, longer LD's undisturbed by interruptions from waking are possible, and of course you can also access memory during a DILD. I was talking about a perceived bias when I asked if "WILD is the real reason people think WILD is "better" than DILD," and not making a statement of fact.

Once you are in a LD, quality is up to you, because quality does not depend on how you got there, but what you do once you're there.

And just to reiterate the thought: since people assume they are in full possession of their waking-life self-awareness and memory throughout a WILD dive, they also might assume that they will arrive in their LD more powerfully lucid -- and by extension incorrectly imagine their dreams will be "better." This assumption is not true for a lot of reasons (i.e., their bodies are still gearing up for sleep as usual, so memory connections are cut off regardless of consciousness levels; many WILD attempts arguably end in DILD's anyway, because the dreamer dozed during the dive and "woke up" in the dream -- nothing wrong with that, BTW), but I can see how ithat assumption is formed.

tl;dr: DILD's have exactly the same potential for quality as WILD's, and I never said otherwise... sorry for the confusion.

Here's another possibility to the bias. In general, I'd say that most oneironauts share the same two "ultimate goals" -- having complete dominion over the dream itself (when desired), and being able to induce a lucid dream at will. Perhaps people are attracted to WILDing because it appears to be the path to induction mastery? After all, if you can enter a dream directly from wakefulness, it would then stand to reason that you can induce a lucid dream whenever you want. Of course, most of us know that WILDing isn't quite that simple!

But, there is something to be said about being able to enter a dream directly from a conscious state; a certain guarantee of lucidity. Conversely, there is an element of uncertainty inherent with DILDing, at least it seems that way. Once you've lost lucidity, you open yourself up to the insanity and amnesia of nLDing. Can I really count on my powers of observation/reason to recognize I'm dreaming while in that compromised state of mind? If not, will I be lucky enough to do a random RC during the dream and figure out what's going on? What if the RC fails anyway?

You have to admit, at least on the surface, that doesn't sound like the most effective or reliable way to have LDs. It would seem that a 'superior' method would be to never allow your lucidity to lapse in the first place, that way you don't open yourself up to the vulnerabilities of non-lucidity (ergo WILDing).

A quote from a scientific review about the usage of tools by animals which might be interesting...

The theory, inspired by the changes in the types of tools made by hominids, suggests that greater working memory size would allow modern humans to hold representations of multiple states of reality in mind at one time : important for theory of mind, symbolic thought, analogical reasoning and planning.

^^ That is interesting, if I understand it right, because for me it illustrates the role of memory in one of the major things that makes us human. I wonder how many tool makers (or users) would say that memory is necessary in making a tool, or if they don't recognize its importance simply because it (memory) doesn't jump out in the steps involved in producing a tool.

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

Here's another possibility to the bias. In general, I'd say that most oneironauts share the same two "ultimate goals" -- having complete dominion over the dream itself (when desired), and being able to induce a lucid dream at will. Perhaps people are attracted to WILDing because it appears to be the path to induction mastery? After all, if you can enter a dream directly from wakefulness, it would then stand to reason that you can induce a lucid dream whenever you want. Of course, most of us know that WILDing isn't quite that simple!


You have to admit, at least on the surface, that doesn't sound like the most effective or reliable way to have LDs. It would seem that a 'superior' method would be to never allow your lucidity to lapse in the first place, that way you don't open yourself up to the vulnerabilities of non-lucidity (ergo WILDing).

Yeah, that would be the more likely explanation for the bias. I conveniently forgot about it while posting my thought... I guess I wanted to believe, just for a moment anyway, that people were unconsciously aware of the importance of memory in LD'ing.

Still, DILD might not sound like the most efficient way to a LD, but I think if your head is in the right place (aka, you've got the fundamentals covered), DILD and WILD really are about as good as each other (at least in my experience, anyway). Also and again, once you are lucid, its quality does not depend on how you got there.

I find that WILD does normally start with me having fairly well intact waking memory, but DILD is just as good if you know how to reconnect with it through methods such as discussed in this thread.

^^ WILD sounds great, but there are some of us for whom it remains just a theory . In my personal experience, one has to give up so much awareness to be able to even hope to approach sleep, that there is barely any difference between the awareness left when you enter the dream vs. being in a non-lucid. Some day perhaps I'll see the light and have this experience…maybe…for now, it's DILDs to the rescue.

p.s. I almost forgot (haha) to mention: success! I had what was to start with probably a hazy/fuzzy/vague lucid waking moment, barely more than HI, that I was able to salvage into a full blown lucid dream with great visuals, pulling myself away from the flow to take a moment to recognize that my body was asleep in bed, and that this entire experience was a fantasy! In contrast to the other recent reports, this did not end the dream, if anything it strengthened it, because I realized I had the ability to control/change the experience, and so for the first time in a dream commanded the dream to get "brighter," "brighter," and upon each statement of the word it was like the lights got turned up a bit more until I had full, clear visuals. Lasted about a minute, it was fun, it included a tightly-packed conga dance line of about 20 identical little girls in identical red dresses snaking their way through the room.

Simply having this active goal, the strong intent to connect with waking memory, is already a bonus to lucidity, actually completing the full realization of it lead to a indisputably superior experience. So, I'm sold!

I know that I tend to preserve lucidity better in WILDS and DEILDs, for exactly the reasons mentioned by TheUncanny; since I was able to enter from the waking state, I have an unbroken stream if awareness. DILD necessitates an initial fracturing of awareness (and in some cases, even ego) that us incredibly disorienting. WILDS do not present this problem, and so I must admit--I am one of those biased individuals, if only for this reason. Too bad I'm not great at WILD.

Wanted to share this, as it seemed silly when I woke up:

I realize I am dreaming. I'm at my mother's house. I exit and stand outside on the lawn. It is dark, and I can barely see. I decide that right now would be a great time to fly. I give it a few tries, hurling my body into the air. I remember the conversation on DV, and (incorrectly, I might add) and try to recall a real-life memory. A false memory arises: this morning I woke up and went to school. I am in the sixth grade.

I examine the memory. Yes, that definitely happened, I reason. I try again to fly. Still can't I did however bring the moon down to the ground, and we played a game together. Not sure how to elaborate on that one.

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Wanted to share this, as it seemed silly when I woke up:

I realize I am dreaming. I'm at my mother's house. I exit and stand outside on the lawn. It is dark, and I can barely see. I decide that right now would be a great time to fly. I give it a few tries, hurling my body into the air. I remember the conversation on DV, and (incorrectly, I might add) and try to recall a real-life memory. A false memory arises: this morning I woke up and went to school. I am in the sixth grade.

I examine the memory. Yes, that definitely happened, I reason. I try again to fly. Still can't I did however bring the moon down to the ground, and we played a game together. Not sure how to elaborate on that one.

Not so silly, I think, because it represents what happens when you try to call up an episodic memory, rather than simply remembering something that is not really a memory (i.e., your sleeping body). When asked for either a specific memory or just any memory at all, your dreaming mind will be quite willing to offer one up, false or not, without your ever gaining access to memory itself.

Accessing memory when lucid is really about actively reminding yourself that there is indeed a waking world outside of this dream world, and doing so successfully gives you a foothold into your memory because you remembered reality, and not a specific stored memory. For instance:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

p.s. I almost forgot (haha) to mention: success! I had what was to start with probably a hazy/fuzzy/vague lucid waking moment, barely more than HI, that I was able to salvage into a full blown lucid dream with great visuals, pulling myself away from the flow to take a moment to recognize that my body was asleep in bed, and that this entire experience was a fantasy! In contrast to the other recent reports, this did not end the dream, if anything it strengthened it, because I realized I had the ability to control/change the experience, and so for the first time in a dream commanded the dream to get "brighter," "brighter," and upon each statement of the word it was like the lights got turned up a bit more until I had full, clear visuals. Lasted about a minute, it was fun, it included a tightly-packed conga dance line of about 20 identical little girls in identical red dresses snaking their way through the room.

Simply having this active goal, the strong intent to connect with waking memory, is already a bonus to lucidity, actually completing the full realization of it lead to a indisputably superior experience. So, I'm sold!

Nice work, FryingMan, though I'm not at all surprised. Thanks for sharing this excellent example of what I'm feebly attempting to describe on this thread!

Originally Posted by Sageous

It represents what happens when you try to call up an episodic memory, rather than simply remembering something that is not really a memory (i.e., your sleeping body). When asked for either a specific memory or just any memory at all, your dreaming mind will be quite willing to offer one up, false or not, without your ever gaining access to memory itself.

Accessing memory when lucid is really about actively reminding yourself that there is indeed a waking world outside of this dream world, and doing so successfully gives you a foothold into your memory because you remembered reality, and not a specific stored memory.

Reading your post Sageous, I realized the relevance of the quote I posted. The Memory you are talking about is not episodic memory (remembering a specific event) but the same working memory required to build and use tools, the working memory which allows "modern humans to hold representations of multiple states of reality in mind at one time : important for theory of mind, symbolic thought, analogical reasoning and planning" whatever that means (it's not so clear and would fall in Zoth's umbrella uncomfortable zone). .

[EDIT]

And...

Originally Posted by Sageous

I wonder how many tool makers (or users) would say that memory is necessary in making a tool, or if they don't recognize its importance simply because it (memory) doesn't jump out in the steps involved in producing a tool.

...Probably. And also, because we think of memory as in episodic memory but the broad term really refers to our ability to access stored knowledge.

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

I know that I tend to preserve lucidity better in WILDS and DEILDs, for exactly the reasons mentioned by TheUncanny; since I was able to enter from the waking state, I have an unbroken stream if awareness. DILD necessitates an initial fracturing of awareness (and in some cases, even ego) that us incredibly disorienting. WILDS do not present this problem, and so I must admit--I am one of those biased individuals, if only for this reason. Too bad I'm not great at WILD.

Wanted to share this, as it seemed silly when I woke up:

I realize I am dreaming. I'm at my mother's house. I exit and stand outside on the lawn. It is dark, and I can barely see. I decide that right now would be a great time to fly. I give it a few tries, hurling my body into the air. I remember the conversation on DV, and (incorrectly, I might add) and try to recall a real-life memory. A false memory arises: this morning I woke up and went to school. I am in the sixth grade.

I examine the memory. Yes, that definitely happened, I reason. I try again to fly. Still can't I did however bring the moon down to the ground, and we played a game together. Not sure how to elaborate on that one.

Bringing the moon down is pretty impressive, so maybe what you did helped some. I would say that regardless of where you think your body is sleeping (as a sixth grader, say in your childhood bunk bed) if the effect obtained is to fully grasp that this is 100% fantasy and you do have a body that is asleep, then the benefits would be the same. It does not matter that a specific memory (episodic) happens at all or that it is correct, what matters is that moment of truly understanding what is going on (a dream completely devoid of any physical elements what so ever.)

^^ In other words, you're really not buying any of this, are you, Sivason?

That's okay, given that you're as well-versed in the art of LD'ing as anyone, but maybe you might consider this:

Can you really fully grasp with 100% assurety that your dream isn't real without tapping your memory for verification, without access to it at all? 3Cat's example above has some presence of memory in it, doesn't it? Unless of course he non-lucidly dreamed his recollection of the DV conversation, which is possible (and also could lead to a false memory, I suppose). And, even if you fully grasped that your dream is not real, wouldn't you still need memory to, say, rise above provided false episodic memories and, more importantly, truly have your entire Self present in the dream?

Perhaps, Sivason, in your own LD's you are accessing memory regularly, but just haven't given it's presence much consideration... you might be taking your memory skills for granted, then, given that they might be a bit too close to notice!

I think episodic memory matters too, as it's just one more layer of waking awareness. In the onion of lucidity, I imagine it goes something like this:

• This environment is an illusion.
• This environment is an illusion, and there is a real world beyond it where I am sleeping.
• This environment is an illusion, and there is a real world beyond it where I am sleeping, and in this world it's currently (day,time) and my sleeping body is located (room,address).

^^Nice--I like that formulation. Where does "This environment is an illusion, and there is a real world beyond it where I am sleeping, and in this world it's currently (false day,time) and my sleeping body is located (false room,address)?"

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ In other words, you're really not buying any of this, are you, Sivason?

That's okay, given that you're as well-versed in the art of LD'ing as anyone, but maybe you might consider this:

Can you really fully grasp with 100% assurity that your dream isn't real without tapping your memory for verification, without access to it at all? 3Cat's example above has some presence of memory in it, doesn't it? Unless of course he non-lucidly dreamed his recollection of the DV conversation, which is possible (and also could lead to a false memory, I suppose). And, even if you fully grasped that your dream is not real, wouldn't you still need memory to, say, rise above provided false episodic memories and, more importantly, truly have your entire Self present in the dream?

Perhaps, Sivason, in your own LD's you are accessing memory regularly, but just haven't given it's presence much consideration... you might be taking your memory skills for granted, then, given that they might be a bit too close to notice!

In this case you completely misunderstand me. I do agree with all of this and think it is fundamental to true control and having full waking awareness.

The point I was making (and have stated a couple times in this thread) is that the act of accessing waking memory can be just as effective regardless of oddities, such as false conclusions as to the location of the body or the year (phase of life). Here is the thing, if you think you are in 2002 or 1989 but you have truly grasped that you are asleep and in a dream, while gaining some what full insight into who you are and what makes you an individual, you still gain the benefit of this practice. True, you for some reason were denied access to many parts of your later life (for some odd reason) but still gain the full awareness of the fact that you are experiencing a virtual world that has nothing to do with anything physical. You know anything the dream creates is a product of thought. The only thing you lack is some episodic memories, and you do not really need many of those to function well.

Maybe, there is something in your message that does not fit this? If so please try to explain, but I certainly was not disagreeing with the principle I have believed you were discussing.

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

^^Nice--I like that formulation. Where does "This environment is an illusion, and there is a real world beyond it where I am sleeping, and in this world it's currently (false day,time) and my sleeping body is located (false room,address)?"

I'd say somewhere between the second and third level. While you may not have had sufficient awareness to recall accurate answers, at least you were lucid enough to ponder those questions. I find that a lack of lucidity is not necessary marked by incorrect assumptions, but rather a general lack of inquiry all together. As such, I feel the inquiry counts for something!

Originally Posted by sivason

In this case you completely misunderstand me. I do agree with all of this and think it is fundamental to true control and having full waking awareness.

That's nice to hear! Maybe we're really talking about the same thing, but with different words (I do that a lot):

The point I was making (and have stated a couple times in this thread) is that the act of accessing waking memory can be just as effective regardless of oddities, such as false conclusions as to the location of the body or the year (phase of life). Here is the thing, if you think you are in 2002 or 1989 but you have truly grasped that you are asleep and in a dream, while gaining some what full insight into who you are and what makes you an individual, you still gain the benefit of this practice. True, you for some reason were denied access to many parts of your later life (for some odd reason) but still gain the full awareness of the fact that you are experiencing a virtual world that has nothing to do with anything physical. You know anything the dream creates is a product of thought. The only thing you lack is some episodic memories, and you do not really need many of those to function well.

I think what I'm trying to say is that, when you reunite with your memory during a LD, there will be no oddities, skipped decades, false memories, or false conclusions about the location of your sleeping body. That imagery can and will happen, but you will understand their false nature, or perhaps admire your dreaming mind's ability to alter your history (I do that a lot too). With access to your memory, and therefore full understanding of the nature of your dreamworld in the context of it being a part of your overall Self -- which is also with you, because of memory.

Even if during your LD you think you are, say, in the wrong year, or sleeping in the wrong house, or the phone number you remember (another good exercise, BTW) just doesn't make sense, but you still cannot understand why those things are wrong because you've failed to fully access memory, I don't believe that you can gain full insight into who you are and what makes you an individual. This is because a major part of "You" still lies in thrall to the dream state, and conversely so very much of "You" is defined by your memory (your memory in general, and not specific episodic memories). Without connecting with your active memory, you cannot, for instance, realize that your dream is trying to give you 1989 as the correct year for a reason (maybe it was the year you got married, and your anniversary is tomorrow). Also, and far more importantly, without access to active memory, and again not specific episodic memories from any time or place, you are exploring your LD within the constraints of the dream-character "You," with no real way to attach full meaning or control that can only be had when all of you is present. Now, I'm not saying that this exploration won't be most excellent as is, but it would be so much more excellent with the entirety of you in the game.

I guess what I'm saying here is that episodic memories do not matter, period. If you lack access to memory, then the episodic memories you are given by your dreaming mind can come from whenever or wherever they want to come, and the memories will likely be wrong (and you will not be able to notice, or if you do notice, you will be mystified as to their incorrectness). If you have access to memory, the episodic memories still don't matter, because, well, now you know your history with the accuracy of your waking-life consciousness and need no specific episodic memories to verify your state.

tl;dr: It isn't that you lack some episodic memory when memory is not accessed, you lack all episodic memory, and are just given stuff called "memories" by your dreaming mind to fulfill your needs... and that stuff does not represent accessing waking memory, or rather, accessing memory in a waking-life manner, at all. And, when you do have access to memory, all episodic memory is as available as it can be in waking life, and it still will not matter, because episodic memory is just a secondary tool used in assembling the overall "You" in the dream. Because of all that, you will not gain full awareness without access to memory in a waking-life global manner.

Now, this does not mean that the "dreaming you" cannot be fully aware that he is dreaming, and know that the world around him is the product of thought. And of course you can certainly have wonderful adventures based solely on this awareness -- LD's are certainly possible, and enjoyed all the time by all of us, without access to memory. I agree with all of that, and wholeheartedly endorse grabbing whatever you can. But the adventures only get better -- and the lucidity gets dramatically better -- when all of "You" joins the party and lends real definition and potential to your presence in the dream.

I hope that made some sense, Sivason; if not, give me some shit, and I will try again...I have a feeling I may have overstated my case to the point of contradictive babbling, especially because I also have a feeling we are both walking in the same direction, but on different paths separated by a thin but tall hedge.

If I may politely intrude!

Originally Posted by Sageous

I hope that made some sense, Sivason; if not, give me some shit, and I will try again...I have a feeling I may have overstated my case to the point of contradictive babbling, especially because I also have a feeling we are both walking in the same direction, but on different paths separated by a thin but tall hedge.

I don't think ur being contradictive at all.

And maybe I can offer a piece of the puzzle that helps clear up some of edges of that hedge you speak of.

For example. What does it do to the dream itself when it is perfectly functioning in an awareness where it makes sense that the body is sleeping in 1989. I reckon it changes things. Especially if you consider yourself a DC that is playing a part of the dream. Even if you whole-heartedly believed that you are in 1989. When that belief is shattered I reckon this can have a huge impact on you at the time.

This impact is probably the surge of lucidity that you are talking about Sageous.

But it may not be possible to have it on-demand. I believe you will need to create a diversion to implement it at first.

^^ Yup... and that diversion you mention would be something like remembering your sleeping body, I think.

Thanks for the added piece; it does make sense!

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

But it may not be possible to have it on-demand.

Similarly to the fact that, (I think I can say...), that lucid dreaming cannot be had on demand. I seem to rely a lot on "intent" for lucid dreams, and I do, for now, have the same technique for "memory" (not that it's been successful yet.)

Also, I was wondering. Our experience. We can experience the world outside. And the world inside us. Outside, we experience the present. Our emotions and our thoughts are also the present. But, some of these thoughts are formed from accessing stored knowledge/memory(past). In meditation, we concentrate on the present, which increases our attentiveness. Another example is ADA. Do you all think, maybe there are different types of meditation that train access to memory/stored knowledge such as Sageous' "self-awareness" training, where we ask ourselves where we are in the context of our lives, who are we, and remind ourselves that we affect the world and the world affects us? Although these things can be experienced first hand, the knowledge often comes from stored knowledge. Would bringing these pieces of wisdom/pure understanding of the world and concentrating on them help develop our ability to access the same knowledge in dreams? And if so, has Sageous already offered us a way to improve our memory in dreams when talking about self-awareness?

It may be a bit off topic, but it is something to do with memory and it's effect on LDing. I recently did what ya'll mentioned in a dream. Last dream on this post

In the dream I knew where I was sleeping, who I was, how old I was, etc. I ended up going into a FA because I knew exactly where I was and I lost lucidity. :/ A little strange considering the self awareness. Looking at the other dreams on there. I can say that I don't usually think about waking life more than "I am dreaming", but I definitely have memory in them, memory of past dreams. This makes it so that when I try to do a dream control, I remember how to do it from last time, If I want to go to a place I can remember how to get there, what it looks like, who DCs are, different things that I have done in dreams, etc. This is why I often repeat dream goals (and pick repeatable goals). Gaining awareness of the waking state didn't seem to do much for me, but that might be because I have done something quite similar in the past (lucid = Lying Under Covers In Dream) to remember where I was. So I know where I am usually, but that is all the waking memory that I usually have. I know what a dream is and all, but I don't know much about memory other than that. I am gonna try accessing near memories and far away memories next. I am hoping to be able to remember the previous day every time I am in a dream. That way it can be more linear with waking.

Just a data point to add: I just had a LD where I was at my childhood house. I went in the bathroom, did a RC for some reason, and became lucid. I thought, “Oh, a dream—no point in trying to use the bathroom, then” and went back to my room to try to remember where I was sleeping.

I correctly remembered that I was sleeping in my room at my current house. I compared that to the location my dream was currently presenting, and I recognized this as my childhood house, different from where I was sleeping in WL. (I added the second step because the last time I had a LD like this, I simply thought “I'm sleeping in my room” but didn't seem to consider what “in my room” actually meant in the context of my dream location.)

My first attempt to fly/hover failed (it normally works), so I stopped to recall something I did yesterday—reading the DV forum. I looked around my room and the house a bit, saw that things were present just how they might have been back in those days, and then I attempted telekinesis on objects and on my cat to observe its reaction, but didn't have success this time (I managed to use it on my cat once before so far). I was going to try to pick it up and toss it into the air, but I woke up as I was picking it up.

My dream control still needs work (and since the majority of my LDs seem to be only a couple of minutes long for some reason, it's difficult to do anything substantial very quickly), but there you go.

Sensei,
Instead of increasing your lucidity in the dream, I wonder if this exercise is creating a sense of detachment from the dream. I could see something like that resulting in false awakenings, or even real ones.

Travis,
I've had LDs in the past where I suspect that my waking awareness had actually impaired my dream control. In those instances, I wonder if perhaps my waking preconceptions of what is and isn't possible had somehow snuck their way into my dream as part of my waking awareness? After all, some of my most controllable LDs have been ones where I've had little-to-no waking awareness...like there were no waking presumptions to counteract my will. Or maybe this inhibition of dream control only occurs when you have partial waking awareness? I need to experiment more with this memory thing to find out if my dream control increases, decreases, or stays the same.

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

I've had LDs in the past where I suspect that my waking awareness had actually impaired my dream control. In those instances, I wonder if perhaps my waking preconceptions of what is and isn't possible had somehow snuck their way into my dream as part of my waking awareness? After all, some of my most controllable LDs have been ones where I've had little-to-no waking awareness...like there were no waking presumptions to counteract my will. Or maybe this inhibition of dream control only occurs when you have partial waking awareness? I need to experiment more with this memory thing to find out if my dream control increases, decreases, or stays the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if something like this is what I'm struggling with. In higher-level LDs, it's really hard for me, I suspect, to shake off my “real-life laws of physics” mentality. The reason for short LDs could be very similar. I've become conditioned to expect LDs to be short to the point where I tend to rush through things, and it's quite difficult to overcome the need to “get even one thing done before the dream ends” and actually take my time and enjoy myself for once. And it's really hard to unlearn a decade of that kind of conditioning! My challenge right now seems to be to somehow figure out how to do that.

I tend to rush through things, and it's quite difficult to overcome the need to “get even one thing done before the dream ends” and actually take my time and enjoy myself for once.

I was was doing this same thing. Something that occurs to me: if all your LDs are short, does it really matter whether or not you rush? Sounds like you'll wake up either way, so might as well just have fun? Or relax? Or just mindfully appreciate the dream? But anytime we feel we have to accomplish a goal, and we have a short time limit, there is stress. Stress is is only a short hop from anxiety. Both are detrimental to lucid dreaming.