Memory: the Forgotten Fundamental

Thanks Sageous - no disappointment at all :) It's nice when someone is so honest about their way ...and the findings you have to share with others are Fundemental :wink: -

Yes I see - what you are presenting with RRC is your own way of getting to know your mind/self within things . Me - coming from a way of having learnt a bit to look at my mind ( because it was ...maybe still is at heart ...very unruly) I can understand you found your own way to work with your reality. This shows maturity imo ...its funny because I feel I have come to a similar place but through being taught how to be with my thoughts and eventually myself with genuine wonder by a Buddist Lama - but more and more it feels the instructions are left behind and the bare presence is left in the form of 'life' and when I can remember and I am in this 'life' properly it feels very much like one of your RRC ;)

Hearing you talk about how you came to your understanding of the fundamentals makes me feel they are more genuine than ever - not just a 'new' technique someone made up in a short time.

Can you update me once more on how the RRC works for you throughout your life and for your LDing - thanks!

Also some new ways to work on the Fundementals during LD's - could you give some ways from your experience to work on developing memory and self awareness in the LD maybe more specific goals or tasks that iyo help develop ones mind -

FryingMan:

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Sageous, I don't know if given what you've written above if you'd be interested in reading it, but in "Mindfulness In Plain English" the author emphasizes the point of vipassana meditation is nothing more or less than "discovering the truth" about experience, reality, etc. I find that highly compatible with discovering the truth about one's state at any particular moment, and not at all about putting someone else's ideas into your head.

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...Which is why I tend to recommend Vipassana to anyone who asks. There can be exceptions to every rule, I think.

There is certainly great value in many of these practices, even if you are eventually, perhaps inadvertently, led down a path that better reflects your teacher's religion than it does your own psyche (this is fine in general, BTW, since many disciplines -- especially the more mystical ones, have a lot to offer for bettering your waking-life... but we're talking about LD'ing here...). Even a discipline as apparently self-focused as Vipassana might find its teachers using Buddhist tenets to explain what you experience, and those tenets will probably be referenced, ironically, more often as your experiences of Self become more profound. So, since advanced LD'ing is potentially as close to a perfect experience of Self as you can experience, to find yourself drawing on those tenets during the dream is to find yourself basing your experience not upon what you are witnessing, but upon what you've been given by your teacher.

Of course, I could be wrong...

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In fact, from the little I know about Buddhist practice, the emphasis always seems to be "don't take what we [the teachers] are saying at face value, test the teachings yourself and reach your own conclusions."

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Yeah, they do like saying that, don't they? But, when your conclusions no longer line up with the teachers' beliefs, be prepared for them to either reject your experience or try to redefine it in terms of their worldview. I have wondered if this is why there are so many different versions of basically the same thing in Buddhist and Hindu meditation and mysticism... they may just reflect a long history of students being ignored or censured by their teachers and starting their own things, only to ignore the new discoveries made by their students, who then start their own things. Hmm.

Regardless, any discipline, no matter how lofty, requires rules, and teachers can only teach if they are somehow bound to those rules. So, even though their discipline says that discovery of Self requires that you draw your own conclusions and build (ironically) your own rules, your teacher cannot help you (or understand himself what you've done) without installing your experience into his given paradigm... so, if you are a good student, you will eventually absorb his parameters into your experience, and find yourself defining your experience by the things your were told, and not the things you see. This could be how Buddhist mysticism has gone pretty much unchanged over all these centuries, I think. This may also be way so few llamas actually seem to achieve nirvana .. you'd think at this point that they all would.

Of course, I could be wrong...

Patience:

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Originally Posted by Patience108

...its funny because I feel I have come to a similar place but through being taught how to be with my thoughts and eventually myself with genuine wonder by a Buddist Lama - but more and more it feels the instructions are left behind and the bare presence is left in the form of 'life' and when I can remember and I am in this 'life' properly it feels very much like one of your RRC ;)

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I never denied having stolen some of the good stuff from the Lama's, have I? ;)

When you remember who you are in this life "properly," are you remembering from your own perspective, or from the perspective given you by your teacher? This may be something to think about, especially as you continue shedding the need for a teacher: Are you seeing your world from the peak of your own mountain, or are you seeing it from the well-trod peak of someone else's mountain?

Often when walking people through the RRC, I found myself trying to tell people what they should be wondering, what true here&now presence feels like, etc, and later I was annoyed when the students simply looked for exactly what I just said while wondering why their RRC's didn't work.

There is much of great value in the meditative disciplines, I know, but when you reach a certain transcendental point you must abandon the discipline and, given all that value, what you've been taught can be real hard to leave behind.

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Can you update me once more on how the RRC works for you throughout your life and for your LDing

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For me? At this point, during waking-life I use a version of RRC that manifests in an almost unconscious manner: I am registering my interaction with reality almost constantly now (which drives my wife nuts, BTW), but very rarely actually ask questions or wonder -- I guess I've left my own teaching behind! I still have many moments of mindlessness, but whenever I do I'm somehow reminded that I've "left" my presence in reality, and maybe need to move back in. Since the RRC tends to reflect the overall, yes, tenets of my general practice and life experience, I would imagine that it is more involved in my daily life than that, but I'd have to give it some real time to map out and describe this involvement

The RRC in dreams is much simpler: with the "power" of the RRC in my lucid toolbox, I am better able to hold onto my understanding of the nature of the dream (that it is Me), and to maintain and exploit my connection with memory. This of course helps with prolonging and with control, not to mention lending some real potential depth to the dream (because that connection with memory makes it much easier to, say, build a dreamworld); but it also serves me well in the higher-end explorations, as sort of a rational tether that helps me to explore well beyond the realms of normal dreams without losing touch with who I am, so that I am both not absorbed by the transcendental places I am exploring and able to reel myself back to waking-life with those transcendental experiences as firmly in my memory's grasp as possible.

All high-end stuff aside, if you are able to do a sincere RRC during a LD, you might better understand your LD's real potentials, and you might have more confidence in acting on those potentials.

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Also some new ways to work on the Fundamentals during LD's - could you give some ways from your experience to work on developing memory and self awareness in the LD maybe more specific goals or tasks that iyo help develop ones mind -

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I guess I'll finish up by running contrary to your expectations again, Patience: I never develop the fundamentals during the dream -- not on purpose, anyway.

If you are trying techniques to build your self-awareness, memory, or expectation/intention during the dream, then you are doing so too late, and also reducing the quality of the LD itself. Developing the fundamentals is definitely daywork, I think. It is much better to have your mind in the right place before dreamtime, so that you can fully appreciate the dream itself.

Aside from rudimentary things like remembering your sleeping body, and whatever prolonging (i.e., spinning, RC's etc) or lucidity enhancing (i.e., the RRC) techniques work for you, there is really nothing to practice once you are fully lucid. Enjoy the dream, let your mind be one with itself in a truly global way, and count on the sense of self you developed during waking-life to sustain you... there might even be things to be learned in the dream that range beyond what you've been taught in waking-life, so open your mind to that, rather than trying to do exercises someone else told you in waking-life (yeah, I went there!;)).

I'm rambling.

Thanks - to be properly in my life with real experience of my own truly unique perspective up and running at 100% would indeed be an exellent example of self awareness with memory fully intact - and I can see this is what is needed for Lucidity/awakening - So, yes the day work is where the meat of the practice is ~ thanks again though for the pointer

I am indeed working on that which you mention - I don't go by the lama's words when reflecting now ~ although they got me out of crisis and showed me so very much to appreciate ... :) I go now more and more by how it feels to me - in any moment - and in doing so allow time/space for all the many perspectives given to me and around me to settle into one ...mine -

Slowly, slowly and thanks for the chat ;)

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Originally Posted by Sageous

If you are trying techniques to build your self-awareness, memory, or expectation/intention during the dream, then you are doing so too late, and also reducing the quality of the LD itself. Developing the fundamentals is definitely daywork, I think. It is much better to have your mind in the right place before dreamtime, so that you can fully appreciate the dream itself.

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I agree with this wholeheartedly. For me, night time/ dream time is when I relax and let my work pay off. Its should I look forward to, to enjoy, to bear the fruits of what I sew during the day.

-Redrivertears-

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Originally Posted by Sageous

For me? At this point, during waking-life I use a version of RRC that manifests in an almost unconscious manner: I am registering my interaction with reality almost constantly now (which drives my wife nuts, BTW), but very rarely actually ask questions or wonder -- I guess I've left my own teaching behind! I still have many moments of mindlessness, but whenever I do I'm somehow reminded that I've "left" my presence in reality, and maybe need to move back in. Since the RRC tends to reflect the overall, yes, tenets of my general practice and life experience, I would imagine that it is more involved in my daily life than that, but I'd have to give it some real time to map out and describe this involvement

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I find that interesting, because I wonder if I might be on my way toward steering down that sort of path myself. Although I still do some RRCs (or their equivalent) occasionally, I have for a while now found myself focusing on more directly trying to develop a more continuous, nonverbal memory/self-awareness state. I still zone out sometimes, but as time has passed, it seems to take less time in general for me to “wake back up” and realize it's happened.

Back when I was still learning about the concept of self-awareness and toying with the RRC exercises, I admittedly didn't feel much like I knew what I was doing at first, but I decided to stick with it for the time being to give it a chance. I suspect that over time I've started to figure out what the self-awareness state is supposed to “feel” like, and maybe it was around that point that I started branching out a bit and experimenting with methods of my own for trying to further that.

Perhaps tying with some of the things said in the last few posts, it really does seem to me that a key part of this whole LD journey is for every person to do some critical thinking, try things out, and explore to find the specifics of their own path based on what they experience. The discussion of fundamentals and many of the techniques found in places like this forum are no doubt helpful for steering beginners in the right general direction, but I wonder if at least many of the really successful LDers are the ones who then took steps beyond the literal tutorials to map out their own personally-tailored variations of the practice.

^^ Fundamentals are just that: the basis upon which everything else is built. Fundamentals themselves do not dictate specifics of the practices that develop that trait. There are myriad ways to develop memory, self-awareness, etc. Indeed, the best LDers constantly experiment with the way that works for them. LDing is a never-ending journey of self-discovery and continually pushing your limits and abilities and extending them as far as you can.

^^ That. I couldn't have said it better myself (and am always glad when I don't need to!).

Also:

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Originally Posted by Travis E.

... I wonder if at least many of the really successful LDers are the ones who then took steps beyond the literal tutorials to map out their own personally-tailored variations of the practice.

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No need to wonder about that; be confident that it is the case.

Most of the advanced LD'ers that I've come across (myself included) invariably have their own techniques (or none at all), though they all seem to deeply know and respect the targets and processes of all the major techniques (i.e., MILD, WBTB). Their personal LD'ing techniques vary widely, but what they all seem to share is an active, clear sense of the fundamentals... including some additional fundamentals of their own (like focus).

There is indeed a point where the techniques as dictated in the books and tutorials become obsolete or inadequate by themselves, and advanced LD'ers realize that they (the techniques) might not matter as much as they first thought they did; all that really matters in the end is their mindset, and that mindset is invariably resting on a thick foundation of the fundamentals.

I don't think I'm advanced yet, but I totally agree. For me, all of these methods blend into a combination of things. For example, all the WILDs are about the same to me - I just chose the anchor based on what I feel like and based on my sleepiness balance. The rest is about the same (relax, fall asleep, focus on awareness and anchor, bla bla bla...). My day practice is about the same, a blend of MILD, awareness, RCs and other stuff. Finding the combination that works for you and being consistent with it is the hardest part...

Hey, I think I'm finally starting to get somewhere with this. I've been working on remembering to remember my sleeping body in LDs for some time now, and have generally been doing that. But last week I had the bright idea during a LD to not just briefly remember that and immediately move onto whatever I was doing, but to actually slow down a bit and dwell on what it actually means: “Okay, I know that none of this stuff around me is real, and my body isn't real, because my real body is in bed sleeping somewhere…” That gave me the idea of taking a moment in each LD to remind myself that what I'm experiencing, from everything around me to my “body”, is really nothing more than a mental scenario I'm playing through in my mind, and that I ought to be able to consciously manipulate it in exactly the same way as I often do my hypnagogic dreamlets and waking-life daydreams. So I've been doing this in the last several LDs, trying to keep it in mind throughout the dream, and I feel it's noticeably helping my dream control.

In particular, I'm starting to be able to pass myself through solid objects, which is something I've pretty much always failed at for the last decade or so. I've been practicing that quite a bit; in one dream, I even flew through one of the gaps in a chain-link fence, as if my dream “body” had no size, which was pretty cool. It appears that I even made it through a solid wall a couple of times, though in both cases the dream visuals immediately collapsed and I ended up waking up—that's probably a coincidence, though. I haven't been successful with everything I've tried yet, but I seem to be getting closer. Today, I had a LD (where I actually became lucid a moment before the dream formed and got to watch it materialize) where I attempted to summon cartoon characters. What I eventually got was a couple of stuffed-animal heads in the form of one of the desired characters on the floor, and when I attempted to make it move and talk on its own, I seemed to get a slight struggle from it when I picked it up. Not much, but something is definitely happening.

It's been a pretty exciting couple of weeks.

I'm refocusing on using this technique since it seemed to help a bit before. Some of my last few LDs have been a little on the disappointing side, though, despite remembering to do the exercise and generally remembering correctly. Sometimes my waking-life memory access and lucidity just don't want to work quite as well as I'd like, or I still fail to recognize some false memories, but I'll keep working with it.

I do have a bit of a problem with feeling a sense of urgency to rush and do as much as possible before I wake up, and I sometimes have a tendency to impulsively do certain “default” actions without first stopping to think about what I was actually planning to do in the dream (especially, it seems, whenever my waking-life memory is slow to become available and allow me to remember my active goals). I'm getting better at recognizing these cases during the dream and am working on learning to ignore the “rush” feeling and take it slower. I really want to slow down enough to relax, develop a full awareness of what I'm doing (dreaming), remember what I was intending to do, and give my dreaming process a chance to catch up to it. Maybe that will help.

On a side note, I had a rather interesting LD today where I actually happened to use the sleeping-body technique as a sort of RC. I had gone through a NLD sequence (which I never remembered had happened until I later woke up) which ended with my lying on what felt like grass, hearing tranquil music playing in my mind, and with no visual imagery. I thought it was cool to relax like this but didn't want to lie on grass and get insect bites or something. But I had a hunch for some reason that the “grass” wasn't actually real, so I decided to attempt to remember my sleeping body to determine whether I was sleeping (I did this rather than a typical RC because I thought I was in NREM experiencing HH at first, not realizing that I had just been dreaming). I did remember that I was currently sleeping in my bed in my room, so I then knew that the grass was imagery from my mind and nothing to worry about. It finally occurred to me that I was probably actually dreaming, so I got up, found myself in my room, and did a second, conventional RC to verify that I was indeed still dreaming. (Unfortunately, I then woke up before I could really do anything else.)

What about the use of memory in a lucid dream, by way of memorization? Has anyone looked into that? It's clear the remembering or recall aspect of memory has taken the spotlight among lucid dreamers, but what about its equally important counterpart? What place does memorization take in the overall concept of memory and in a dream, specifically, a lucid dream? If we memorize something from within the dream, how much can/will it get skewed by the overall level of awareness one has while lucid? What other factors would come at play? Could one effectively recall the information exactly as it was intended to, once he/she wakes up? This is something that's been on the back of my mind for some time, one I've been wanting to test. I've read countless of people address that some of the novelty is lost from dreams when awake, and lucid dreams are no exception. Sometimes the experience itself is filled with numerous instances that include information intriguing to the dreamer. Perhaps words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences. Some of these get lost in translation when transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. All this time the focus on memory has been put to use after the dream ends. Perhaps it's time we should work on it from within the inside as well. Finding the implications of memorization when lucid dreaming could prove beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Silence11

What about the use of memory in a lucid dream, by way of memorization? Has anyone looked into that? It's clear the remembering or recall aspect of memory has taken the spotlight among lucid dreamers, but what about its equally important counterpart? What place does memorization take in the overall concept of memory and in a dream, specifically, a lucid dream? If we memorize something from within the dream, how much can/will it get skewed by the overall level of awareness one has while lucid? What other factors would come at play? Could one effectively recall the information exactly as it was intended to, once he/she wakes up? This is something that's been on the back of my mind for some time, one I've been wanting to test. I've read countless of people address that some of the novelty is lost from dreams when awake, and lucid dreams are no exception. Sometimes the experience itself is filled with numerous instances that include information intriguing to the dreamer. Perhaps words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences. Some of these get lost in translation when transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. All this time the focus on memory has been put to use after the dream ends. Perhaps it's time we should work on it from within the inside as well. Finding the implications of memorization when lucid dreaming could prove beneficial.

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In my experience, remembering the specifics about any one thing in a dream leads to forgetting a majority of the information about the rest. Most of how well I memorize what happens in a dream depends entirely on how well I'm able to go through it in my head as soon as I wake up, lucid or otherwise. My primary method has always been to run through the dream backwards without focusing too much on any one thing, and it works pretty well. Any of the times I've decided to focus on something very specific, it interrupts the entire process of replaying the dream to dedicate it to long term memory so thoroughly that I'm really only able to remember that specific part in any kind of detail, and I can even lose chunks of what happened altogether in other parts of the dream. Dream memories are time and thought sensitive. How well I'm able to get any semblance of those chunks back depends on how well the other parts I do remember relate to those chunks. Usually each chunk has some kind of "hook" (that in itself isn't identifiable, I just know remembering whatever it is brings back another chunk of the dream which may have most of its information other than the bare minimum of what happened lost) that tethers it to another chunk. If I've forgotten the medium and small level details of a chunk, chances are the "hook" to connect it to another chunk is lost as well, and I can't trigger any recall of the lost chunks. At the same time, replaying the entire dream without focusing on anything in particular means losing most fine and all ultra fine details in all the chunks. I think if you want to memorize something specific you need to be prepared to lose almost everything else (unless you just get lucky).

What if you break down the memorizing process into short bits or cues you can easily recall? For example, if I want to remember the most recent dream (from within a waking state), I recap in my mind the whole series of events, without intellectualizing or thinking thoroughly about it, as if replaying a movie. When I feel I have the overall gist of the dream down, I then write (a) short key word(s) that relates to a specific but important chunk of the dream (like the hooks you mention), capturing an image of it in my mind which I can later recall should I reread the same word later on. Then, I encode the information I've written down by use of a memory palace, and finally train the whole memory process of memorizing and retrieval through spaced repetition. It may look like a complicated process, but it really isn't. With enough practice, it's the very best way of memorizing and retrieving information, and easy to accomplish. I've found out that through this method alone, I can recall every single dream I chose to commit to memory, exactly as I had intended to, without a need to open my dream journal at all, by use of only my very own head. It's amazing what we can accomplish with our mind if we exercise it, which is why I got initially curious with using this method in the dreamworld.

Actually there is a method for transferring information from the waking state to the dream and the other way around. It is described in Daniel Love's book 'Are you Dreaming?' as 'The Dream Peg System'. It consists of using the peg system of mnemonics to put dream elements while in the dream in the pegs and retrieve them when you wake up or to put other information (like dream goals) in the pegs while awake and retrieve them while in the dream.

It works!

P.S: I do not want to give the full description of the technique here as I think it would be unfair to Daniel. You can either try to figure it out by checking the peg system from mnemonics or get his book :)

Interesting conversation guys, but keep in mind that this thread is about the role of memory during a LD, and not about recalling the dream afterward. Dream recall is certainly important, but it has also been thoroughly and repetitively covered elsewhere.

That said, I do think Silence raised an interesting point initially (I hope you don't mind my parsing your post, Silence):

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Originally Posted by Silence11

What about the use of memory in a lucid dream, by way of memorization? Has anyone looked into that? It's clear the remembering or recall aspect of memory has taken the spotlight among lucid dreamers, but what about its equally important counterpart? What place does memorization take in the overall concept of memory and in a dream, specifically, a lucid dream?

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If you are fully lucid in a dream, meaning you have access to memory, remembering what you experience during the dream will be exactly the same as it would be during waking-life. So any memorization methods, tricks, or skills you might call upon during waking-life will be there for you during a LD.

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If we memorize something from within the dream, how much can/will it get skewed by the overall level of awareness one has while lucid?

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If you are memorizing it lucidly, it will be no more skewed than any other memory generated during waking-life consciousness. Your overall awareness will tend to match your waking-life awareness during a LD in which memory is accessed, so the only real challenge to the accuracy or quality of the memory you are making rests on your own interest in remembering properly, and on the openness with which you witnessed your dream moment in the first place (meaning, if you incorrectly interpret the events or "messages" during a dream, that interpretation will be just as incorrect when you remember it upon waking -- it's better, I think, to simply absorb important LD moments or imagery, as presented, and worry about interpreting later).

The "skewing" of the meaning or actual imagery of LD's occurs, I think, not during the LD, but upon waking, as a dreamer attempts to explain her experience in a way that lines up with her waking-life experience, knowledge, and expectations; or, perhaps, in a way that makes the dream more say, exciting, deeply meaningful, or retellable than it may originally have been. After an exciting or emotionally rich LD, we may have a tendency to do a little embellishing, or "filling in the blanks," during our recounting of the dream, just to lend some explanation for the special feelings that occurred during it. For instance, let's say that during a LD you decide that you don't like the scene you've been given, and sweep it away with a gesture:

Let's say that dream scene was a bar populated with attractive young partyers. Well, the actual moment of "deleting" the scene may have been nothing more than a simple rippling of the image and then the bar was just not there anymore, and you were feeling pretty powerful or maybe very free as you set about exploring the dream scene you've transitioned to by erasing the bar -- and that's of course how you would initially remember it... but when it comes time, upon waking, to describe it (to yourself and others), you might tend to add in some rationale for deleting the bar, perhaps a plot device (bad tequila?) that never occurred, or perhaps some action (i.e., pretty girls clinging to barstools during the windy mayhem of the deletion) that better portrays or substantiates the depth of emotion you felt at the time, even if that action never happened during the dream.

Because we are creatures of narrative, and sometimes allow that narrative to run a little wild when we're remembering major events in our lives, it is important to avoid skewing our memories to make them better, or more sensible... especially because this embellishment tends to bury, beneath a large pile of mundane, familiar plot or image additions, the original depth of the lucid moment itself. And, of course, all this skewing occurs after we are awake, and not during the dream!

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Could one effectively recall the information exactly as it was intended to, once he/she wakes up?

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Of course one could do so. It isn't always easy, for reasons I noted above, and sometimes, especially with dreams of a transcendental nature, it is almost impossible, but, since you experienced the moment with full access to memory, it has already been recorded as a conscious memory -- exactly as you experienced it/it was intended.... How you access that memory and interpret it later on is where things tend to fall apart, and is no fault of memory during the dream.

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This is something that's been on the back of my mind for some time, one I've been wanting to test. I've read countless of people address that some of the novelty is lost from dreams when awake, and lucid dreams are no exception. Sometimes the experience itself is filled with numerous instances that include information intriguing to the dreamer. Perhaps words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences.

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I think this happens in waking-life as well, and more often than we might think, including "...words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences". Paying attention and being open to the real subtleties of experience are very difficult processes whether we are awake or dreaming; mastering those processes might have you finding memories much easier to properly recall, store, and integrate into your life -- as they were initially formed, and not as you chose to see them afterwords.

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Some of these get lost in translation when transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. All this time the focus on memory has been put to use after the dream ends. Perhaps it's time we should work on it from within the inside as well. Finding the implications of memorization when lucid dreaming could prove beneficial.

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Yes, it certainly would prove beneficial -- especially if you are able to work from a starting point, during the dream, that acknowledges that any memory you are forming is as real as any conscious memory you might form in waking-life... how you treat that memory later on is where all the haziness and mystery of LD recall resides, I believe.

I'm out of time, but if you're curious, I go into this a bit more in these two threads (feel free to necro!):

Dreams of Transcendence

A Treatise on Proof

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Again, the memory I speak of here should not be confused with dream recall. Dream recall is certainly important, but that importance lies in adding to memory rather than accessing it. In the case of memory as a LD’ing fundamental I'm talking about accessing your waking-life memory processes when lucid; remembering, during the dream, that you have a waking-life existence, that you consciously stepped away from that existence a few minutes ago, and that you still have a sleeping body right where you left it. This might seem a little silly at first glance, but it is critical toward drawing your waking-life awareness into your dream. This is the case for two major reasons (and plenty more, most likely):

First, the core of non-lucid dreaming consciousness, the basis of your dream-character “you,” is that the DC “you” cannot remember that the dream started a few minutes ago (most non-lucids have a built-in assurance – thanks mainly to absent memory -- that the current dream scene is both real and has always been there), and that you are sure that your DC body is the real thing. It is not that your mind is addled or your so-called “dream logic” is flawed, as it is popular to believe; no, your cognition is working fine in dreams. What is missing, or rather what is inaccessible during NLD's, is your storehouse of experience and knowledge from which you could gather that there really are, say, no swimming pools on the moon.

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Awesome post Sageous! I wanted to say "Yes!" to a lot of what you said. To me, part of what makes lucid dreaming so mind-blowing is the fact that you can remember (and have memory) within dreams. Suddenly you can remember who you are in waking life, that you went to sleep, and places even more mystery and vividness onto the dream. That is weird memory is often overlooked in RC techniques. I'll have to start incorporating that into my RCs somehow, with memory and remembering who I am. It does sound really odd writing this out haha but it makes sense because of how we are in non-lucid dreams. The reason lucidity is difficult to achieve is because we have a momentary loss of memory upon going into the dream state. So then it becomes a matter of re-establishing memory which leads to awareness of self.

Sageous you continue to blow my mind :D

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Originally Posted by Erfeyah

Actually there is a method for transferring information from the waking state to the dream and the other way around. It is described in Daniel Love's book 'Are you Dreaming?' as 'The Dream Peg System'. It consists of using the peg system of mnemonics to put dream elements while in the dream in the pegs and retrieve them when you wake up or to put other information (like dream goals) in the pegs while awake and retrieve them while in the dream.

It works!

P.S: I do not want to give the full description of the technique here as I think it would be unfair to Daniel. You can either try to figure it out by checking the peg system from mnemonics or get his book :)

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I'm familiar with the peg system and find it quite interesting, though I haven't put it to use yet. I'm curious to find out about the "Dream Peg System" that Daniel describes in his book. So, might have to pick up that book and give it a read. Thanks for the recommendation! Now:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Interesting conversation guys, but keep in mind that this thread is about the role of memory during a LD, and not about recalling the dream afterward. Dream recall is certainly important, but it has also been thoroughly and repetitively covered elsewhere.

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True, I guess we got a little carried away with recall in there for a bit (although, memorization from within a dream was included somewhere in there as well, I believe). Anyway, to continue on topic:

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(I hope you don't mind my parsing your post, Silence):

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Not at all Sageous, parsing is always welcomed, more so when the posts themselves allow a great deal of thinking, questioning and pondering, like the ones brought forth by this thread.

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If you are fully lucid in a dream, meaning you have access to memory, remembering what you experience during the dream will be exactly the same as it would be during waking-life. So any memorization methods, tricks, or skills you might call upon during waking-life will be there for you during a LD.

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You are correct, I hadn’t considered this before when I made my initial statement. I’ll agree that the processes that govern memory and its components should work exactly the same, regardless of the waking or dream state, should one attain full lucidity. That being said…

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If you are memorizing it lucidly, it will be no more skewed than any other memory generated during waking-life consciousness.

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Ah, but is it really?

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Your overall awareness will tend to match your waking-life awareness during a LD in which memory is accessed, so the only real challenge to the accuracy or quality of the memory you are making rests on your own interest in remembering properly, and on the openness with which you witnessed your dream moment in the first place...

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Agreed, for the most part. While all those variables all factor in when storing and retrieving a memory, things like time, frequency, awareness and, therefore, the circumstances that englobe the experience itself, all four must also be considered. Especially when referring to awareness and its link with incoming stimuli, as I feel the need to point out a difference with both when in a dream and awake. But more on that below.

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(meaning, if you incorrectly interpret the events or "messages" during a dream, that interpretation will be just as incorrect when you remember it upon waking -- it's better, I think, to simply absorb important LD moments or imagery, as presented, and worry about interpreting later).

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Couldn’t agree more. Intellectualizing anything you experience before it’s successfully stored in memory would only result in the tampering of the memory itself you wished to memorize. Better to capture the event in its original essence, then evaluate it once a more favorable opportunity arises.

Also, a quick note: when you speak of remembering, I don’t know if you mean it as in recalling, memorizing, or both. Both words can be used interchangeably which is why I prefer to separate the terms and ditch remembering altogether. So, an apology as this relatively short use of words would most likely cause me to misunderstand some of what you typed up to here, and what follows.

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The "skewing" of the meaning or actual imagery of LD's occurs, I think, not during the LD, but upon waking, as a dreamer attempts to explain her experience in a way that lines up with her waking-life experience, knowledge, and expectations; or, perhaps, in a way that makes the dream more say, exciting, deeply meaningful, or retellable than it may originally have been. After an exciting or emotionally rich LD, we may have a tendency to do a little embellishing, or "filling in the blanks," during our recounting of the dream, just to lend some explanation for the special feelings that occurred during it.

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True, although we could “easily” solve this if we ignore the need for interpretation from the beginning, the way we established above.

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For instance, let's say that during a LD you decide that you don't like the scene you've been given, and sweep it away with a gesture:

Let's say that dream scene was a bar populated with attractive young partyers. Well, the actual moment of "deleting" the scene may have been nothing more than a simple rippling of the image and then the bar was just not there anymore, and you were feeling pretty powerful or maybe very free as you set about exploring the dream scene you've transitioned to by erasing the bar -- and that's of course how you would initially remember it... but when it comes time, upon waking, to describe it (to yourself and others), you might tend to add in some rationale for deleting the bar, perhaps a plot device (bad tequila?) that never occurred, or perhaps some action (i.e., pretty girls clinging to barstools during the windy mayhem of the deletion) that better portrays or substantiates the depth of emotion you felt at the time, even if that action never happened during the dream.

Because we are creatures of narrative, and sometimes allow that narrative to run a little wild when we're remembering major events in our lives, it is important to avoid skewing our memories to make them better, or more sensible... especially because this embellishment tends to bury, beneath a large pile of mundane, familiar plot or image additions, the original depth of the lucid moment itself. And, of course, all this skewing occurs after we are awake, and not during the dream!

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This is where I wanted to get at, and while I admit everything you say makes sense and is true, I can’t help but feel a little anxious with that last statement. The reason is, I believe, because several of the variables at play are being left out of the equation: time, frequency, awareness, and incoming stimuli. Now, what I mean with time adds up to no more than the amount it takes for one to start the memorizing process and how much of it elapses before that same memory is retrieved. Likewise, (and tied with the first) with frequency I mean the number of times we participate (whether through intention or not) in the whole memorization and retrieval cycle. So, it’s not only critical WHEN I start to memorize, but also how many times I engage in recalling that memory. Both concepts aid in preserving the information to memorize as it originally exists. In addition, the two can also be affected by awareness and the sensory input (stimuli) we experience as we continue dreaming. I’ll admit these initial factors show no difference individually when compared to waking consciousness. They do, however, when influenced by the two of the remaining variables.

With awareness, it’s important to notice that, although one can have access to memory in a dream exactly as in waking consciousness, that same awareness can dissipate as fast as it originated, hindering one’s access to memory by default. So, there’s definitely some variables that factor in here as well, like time, experience, and sensory input provided by the dream. So, while I could access memory to remember that I have a sleeping body (or that I'm asleep) and, in this manner, achieve a fully lucid state, I still need to put forth with how long the dream is, time in which one could get distracted and loose self-awareness, exactly as it happens in wakefulness. The only difference is, the sensory input we receive from a dream, especially when lucid, differs from that of the waking world.

The stories we live out in our dreams are almost always unlike any waking life experience. Think about it, we can live and relive any fantasy we so desire, embark on adventures we can only “dream of” when awake, accomplish things only limited by our imagination, and transcend the experience altogether. Even the most mundane of things appear magical the first time we lucidly set foot on dreamland. It’s like living in a state of almost uninterrupted euphoria. All these number of stimuli can distract the dreamer from self-awareness and thus, from access to memory. Now look at waking life as we know it, and, although life is filled with numerous instances that can work against awareness and memory, they are “nothing” compared to what a dream has to offer. Particularly when the most surreal and unique of events occur leaps and bounds more frequently in dreams. And we haven’t even touched upon what the dreamer’s experience with self-awareness and memory can do to influence the memory process, specifically the methods he/she uses to memorize the information at hand.

So, provided with the example above, perhaps we find ourselves at the bar and engage in conversation with one of the pretty girls sitting nearby. We soon realize, to our amazement, that what’s being conveyed throughout the conversation is insightful and beneficial to us, so we wish to memorize such singular occasion. However we choose to do so is nonimportant (it really is, but that's something for another time). But now comes the challenge, after we feel we’re done with the activity. Should we intentionally wake up from the dream, or should it be the last incident of the night, our memory of it would have to be subject to the variables of time, frequency, how well we memorized the information, and whether it was tampered in any way, shape or form. On the other hand, should the dream continue, all previous factors continue to play, plus our ability to deal with incoming stimuli. So, perhaps the bar ripples out of existence and I decide to fly to the nearest planet, and maybe I find a dragon to slay by a castle nearby, and the dream continues for however long it cares to drag on. Then, we could say, the skewing occurs not only when awake, but also while we sleep.

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Of course one could do so. It isn't always easy, for reasons I noted above, and sometimes, especially with dreams of a transcendental nature, it is almost impossible, but, since you experienced the moment with full access to memory, it has already been recorded as a conscious memory -- exactly as you experienced it/it was intended.... How you access that memory and interpret it later on is where things tend to fall apart, and is no fault of memory during the dream.

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I believe the response above should answer this as well but, feel free to point out if you differ!

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I think this happens in waking-life as well, and more often than we might think, including "...words of wisdom provided by the subconscious, or maybe important events, even transcendental experiences". Paying attention and being open to the real subtleties of experience are very difficult processes whether we are awake or dreaming; mastering those processes might have you finding memories much easier to properly recall, store, and integrate into your life -- as they were initially formed, and not as you chose to see them afterwords.

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We continue to agree here haha!

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I'm out of time, but if you're curious, I go into this a bit more in these two threads (feel free to necro!):

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I’m most definitely curious and will look at both threads right away, thanks for the suggestions!

^^ Hmm.

I think maybe you're putting way to much weight on memorizing, Silence.

Yes, sometimes we have to spend time and focus to consciously remember something (i.e., facts for a test), and usually that memorizing involves attempting to retain something we're not too interested in retaining (i.e., facts for a test). But I think what you might be overlooking is that remembering is almost always done pretty much automatically; our brains are incredibly effective at storing information all by themselves, without any conscious input... if it matters, we will very likely remember it; if it matters a lot (like a LD), we will very likely remember it in excellent detail -- especially if the thing we are remembering is extremely unusual (like a dream).

I think this might explain why I didn't use the word "memorize" pretty much anywhere on this this thread. To me, in the context of LD'ing, memorizing really isn't an issue at all, because my mind is fully capable of retaining the stuff I'm experiencing just fine on its own -- just as it does in waking-life, when I'm consciously experiencing an interesting, unusual, or particularly exciting moment. If we were required to actually memorize every important conscious event we encounter, I think a lot of us would have very little pasts to which to refer!

So we're probably talking about two different things here: I am discussing the presence of memory in dreams, and that presence being more than enough to create conscious memories of LD's that are every bit as clear as waking-life memories, if not more so, and you are discussing manually committing to memory the things that occur in a LD.

For me this sort of manual commitment to memory -- memorizing -- certainly does come up now and then (i.e., remembering lines of text, specific faces on DC's, or what exactly that girl at the bar was saying), and I will need to make an effort to remember them, using whatever conscious trick might be necessary, as I think I mentioned above. And yes, I will occasionally wake myself up if some complex detail occurs that I know I have to write down to accurately remember, but the vast majority of my LD content gets remembered just like any important conscious event: automatically.

All that said, at the risk of basically repeating what I just said, I noticed a couple of bits in your post that encouraged response:

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Originally Posted by Silence11

You are correct, I hadn’t considered this before when I made my initial statement. I’ll agree that the processes that govern memory and its components should work exactly the same, regardless of the waking or dream state, should one attain full lucidity. That being said…

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Isn't that enough? ;)

You very nicely summarized the role of memory in a LD; why complicate its presence? But still...

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If you are memorizing it lucidly, it will be no more skewed than any other memory generated during waking-life consciousness.

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Ah, but is it really?

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Yes, I think it is; really.

We are just as capable of skewing waking-life events as we are LD-life events. In fact, given their unusual nature, I wonder if dreams are actually easier to remember without embellishment than waking-life events.

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Agreed, for the most part. While all those variables all factor in when storing and retrieving a memory, things like time, frequency, awareness and, therefore, the circumstances that englobe the experience itself, all four must also be considered. Especially when referring to awareness and its link with incoming stimuli, as I feel the need to point out a difference with both when in a dream and awake. But more on that below.

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All four of those things must be considered when memorizing, and not remembering in general, I think. Again, intentionally memorizing a LD is not generally necessary (hopefully I won't repeat that too many more times...)

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Also, a quick note: when you speak of remembering, I don’t know if you mean it as in recalling, memorizing, or both. Both words can be used interchangeably which is why I prefer to separate the terms and ditch remembering altogether. So, an apology as this relatively short use of words would most likely cause me to misunderstand some of what you typed up to here, and what follows.

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Here, again, is where I did indeed misunderstand you. To me, memorizing is very different from recall, because recall is what you do after you've memorized (or naturally remembered). This is especially true upon waking from a NLD: the thing you are doing as you struggle to retain a fading NLD is the memorizing part, and recall is what you're rewarded with after you've successfully memorized the dream. So recall is a noun first (the stored memory, thanks to your memorizing the NLD), and doesn't become a verb until later when you remember/recall the dream that has already been stored in memory. In a literal sense, when initially remembering/memorizing a NLD, you are "calling" it back to consciousness in the hopes of filing it away, and recall comes later, when you are calling the stored dream up again. [Note that I am intentionally using "NLD's" here, because LD's -- being conscious events -- don't require the same effort to be remembered upon waking.]

... that all sounded a lot better in my head, but I've no time to rewrite...

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And, of course, all this skewing occurs after we are awake, and not during the dream!

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This is where I wanted to get at, and while I admit everything you say makes sense and is true, I can’t help but feel a little anxious with that last statement. The reason is, I believe, because several of the variables at play are being left out of the equation: time, frequency, awareness, and incoming stimuli.

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I think, from the perspective of your functional memory (the part of your mind that does remembering without much, if any, conscious input... please forgive if I'm using the wrong term), that those variables really don't matter; if a conscious event is important, it will be stored, sometimes whether you like it or not (i.e., nightmares). You really do not need to make an effort to memorize a LD, especially if the event of its occurrence is important to you (which it generally is); your mind will do the heavy lifting for you, memory-wise.

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With awareness, it’s important to notice that, although one can have access to memory in a dream exactly as in waking consciousness, that same awareness can dissipate as fast as it originated, hindering one’s access to memory by default.

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Yes it can, but if self-awareness fades, so does lucidity, bringing you back to trying to remember a NLD, which is not a waking-life-consciousness event (meaning, also, that memorization during the dream is rendered impossible anyway).

Just as a sort of aside, that same dissipation of awareness happens in waking-life, pretty much all the time... and yet our minds are chock-full of memories!

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So, there’s definitely some variables that factor in here as well, like time, experience, and sensory input provided by the dream. So, while I could access memory to remember that I have a sleeping body (or that I'm asleep) and, in this manner, achieve a fully lucid state, I still need to put forth with how long the dream is, time in which one could get distracted and loose self-awareness, exactly as it happens in wakefulness. The only difference is, the sensory input we receive from a dream, especially when lucid, differs from that of the waking world.

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Again, all this has to do with memorizing, and not simply storing conscious memories naturally. And still again, that differing sensory input can be a plus for remembering a LD, because it is so unusual.

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The stories we live out in our dreams are almost always unlike any waking life experience. Think about it, we can live and relive any fantasy we so desire, embark on adventures we can only “dream of” when awake, accomplish things only limited by our imagination, and transcend the experience altogether. Even the most mundane of things appear magical the first time we lucidly set foot on dreamland. It’s like living in a state of almost uninterrupted euphoria. All these number of stimuli can distract the dreamer from self-awareness and thus, from access to memory.

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That all sounds pretty memorable to me! ;)

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Now look at waking life as we know it, and, although life is filled with numerous instances that can work against awareness and memory, they are “nothing” compared to what a dream has to offer. Particularly when the most surreal and unique of events occur leaps and bounds more frequently in dreams

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.
...Still more things that make LD's easily remembered, I think...

Waking-life is filled with infinite instances that go unremembered, mostly because they have nothing to do with you; in a dream, however, everything has something to do with you because, well, dreams are You.

So instances in a dream are both far more finite (even when it doesn't seem so, in the dream) and directly relevant to you, meaning, I think, that a few lucid moments in even the most surreal or complex of dreams might be more easily remembered than a few moments in waking-life.

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So, provided with the example above, perhaps we find ourselves at the bar and engage in conversation with one of the pretty girls sitting nearby. We soon realize, to our amazement, that what’s being conveyed throughout the conversation is insightful and beneficial to us, so we wish to memorize such singular occasion.

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Now there, I agree, is a time where memorizing would come into play... and perhaps nicely illustrates the two different things we're talking about. At the risk of more repetition:

Yes, if I were to decide that something the girl was telling me mattered, I would make every effort to remember her words as best I could (I might even immediately wake up and write it down, with the hope of returning to the dream though DEILD/WILD). But I would be doing that memorizing in the context of a moment that is already being automatically stored, globally, in my memory as well, regardless of my intent. In fact, my effort to remember the girl's words would probably strengthen my overall memory of the moment, simply because I am so focused on it. So in this case both memorizing and forming a general memory of the moment would be occurring simultaneously, if perhaps independently.

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However we choose to do so is nonimportant (it really is, but that's something for another time). But now comes the challenge, after we feel we’re done with the activity. Should we intentionally wake up from the dream, or should it be the last incident of the night, our memory of it would have to be subject to the variables of time, frequency, how well we memorized the information, and whether it was tampered in any way, shape or form. On the other hand, should the dream continue, all previous factors continue to play, plus our ability to deal with incoming stimuli. So, perhaps the bar ripples out of existence and I decide to fly to the nearest planet, and maybe I find a dragon to slay by a castle nearby, and the dream continues for however long it cares to drag on. Then, we could say, the skewing occurs not only when awake, but also while we sleep.

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All true, but it again relates to memorizing, and not the natural memory of the dream. And yes, in either case, distance from the event can lead to skewing -- even if we're still asleep (but also still lucid) -- so that would certainly need to be dealt with.

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I’m most definitely curious and will look at both threads right away, thanks for the suggestions!

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Thanks! Hopefully I say things a bit more clearly there.


tl;dr: I think maybe you're putting way to much weight on memorizing, Silence. LD's, like any other important conscious event, can be remembered without intentionally, manually, memorizing them.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Hmm.

I think maybe you're putting way to much weight on memorizing, Silence.

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Hahaha, I knew it! Just for the record, I wasn't putting too much weight on "memorization," but ALL the weight on it from the start. So, my fault on that regard, but it was intended, as described by my initial two posts. It's just that I had read through the whole thread and everywhere I looked there was no mention of memorization at all. Perhaps it's a subject almost no one felt the need to elaborate on (which struck me as odd), and, seeing as you left memory as the object for discussion, I thought, why not discuss about it? My studies (like any other you could say) require a lot of memorization, so I figured that working on it from within the dream might be of any help when lucid dreaming.

With that out of the way, I'm still left with a couple more questions after what you wrote, although I feel we have certainly reached a middle ground in terms of our understanding of the use of memorization in lucid dreams. What I mean is that yes, I, once again, have to agree, intentionally memorizing the "memorable" experiences that occur while dreaming would result in a waste of one's time. It is unnecessary, as instances like these are very easy to remember/recall without much effort. Nonetheless, my question wasn't directed to those experiences at all, but to the number of instances where one would feel compelled to memorize: specific events that run parallel to those memorable experiences, but which are not as surreal or unique as them. Also, details within the dream that aren't easy to notice but might be of importance to the dreamer, details that could extend beyond what would be reasonably required to remember without intention. And what about dreams that extend for long periods of time (+ 10-20 min. to give an example), where the number of distractions will undoubtedly increase, or (and my personal favorite) using your creativity/imagination to create something you intend to recreate when awake.

At the end of the day, if the topic of memorization is unrelated to the original intention of this thread, and you wish to stop any further discussion on the subject, I have no other option but to stop here. Still, I must say the role of posts were definitely insightful, for as long as they lasted.

I do have one last question: for the sake of not letting this thread left forgotten, what do you think (or anybody else) would be another interesting topic for discussion?

Wow, I took some time earlier to try to catch up on this thread. Had jumped in with just reading the first post; there is a ton of great discussions and sources I'll need to check out in here!

This talk of memory is actually getting back to how my first lucid experiences were. I had often come to a point and asked "hey how did I get here?" and that thinking brought me into a realization of who I really am. And "where" I was, which was the dream state! So this is definitely touching on a core aspect of my early lucid dream experiences. Nowadays when I have them I rarely go into this mindset and am solely focused on the dreaming aspect vs bridging my dream self with my waking self. I suppose it is also how my lucids are generally more on the playful and exploratory side and that I'm less concerned with self, and more focused on what I can do in the dream.

This is also juxtaposed with how I am in waking life, since I am more living in the "now" moment than ever. You'd think it'd transfer over to the dream state but it seems I'm still generally just automatically going through my daily life. So I definitely give my waking self more credit than is due, especially when I rarely think about the going to's and from's with locations and tasks. Conversely, I feel as though I'm more aware at the same time, so that's weird lol I'm going on somewhat of a tangent now.

But yes I haven't thought of this in a while about memory in dreams. To me it definitely gives more of a conscious perspective and actually feels different within the dream state. I often get a rush of euphoria whenever I'm thinking of myself in my totality within the lucid dream state. Its still amazing to think about even after all this time, just how intense the experience is to realize and be on an other level of existence. So thanks everyone here and Sageous for helping me to remember this!

^^ Oops! You snuck in while I was drafting another lengthy post to SIlence11, Neo Neo... sorry to step on your post -- but I do appreciate your words and am glad you found the thread useful! ;)


Silence11:

Hahaha indeed.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm being trolled here, and I really do not have time to spend on such things, so here is one more response and then I'm done; if anyone else wants to chime in, that's fine:

I'm not sure how many ways I can say it Silence, but I do believe that memorizing is not a priority in the overall process or development of LD'ing, since you would use basically the same memorization tools in a dream that you would in waking-life, should you ever feel a need to memorize something. But, since you're still asking:

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Nonetheless, my question wasn't directed to those experiences at all, but to the number of instances where one would feel compelled to memorize: specific events that run parallel to those memorable experiences, but which are not as surreal or unique as them. Also, details within the dream that aren't easy to notice but might be of importance to the dreamer, details that could extend beyond what would be reasonably required to remember without intention. And what about dreams that extend for long periods of time (+ 10-20 min. to give an example), where the number of distractions will undoubtedly increase, or (and my personal favorite) using your creativity/imagination to create something you intend to recreate when awake.

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If you are lucid, you can access whatever effective waking-life tools you already have to memorize specific things in a dream, short of writing them down or taking a picture. Wait, now that I think about it, writing things down or taking a picture might actually help too, since the metaphoric action of doing so might be enough to cause a memory to be recorded. Also, other waking-life memorization tools, like a memory cathedral, could actually work better in a LD, thanks to the relative ease of creating necessary imagery in a dream.

Also, just as waking-life is filled with subsequent distractions after we memorize something, and yet still we can memorize, if you are able to successfully memorize something in a LD, by definition you will retain it, regardless of how long or complex the rest of your dream may be. I think the point of memorizing is to retain a bit of information regardless of its initial obscurity or subsequent distractions, so I wouldn't worry about it.. what you do with that memory later, including skewing it or embellishing it, is more up to you than it is a consequence of the events in your dream.

Finally, here's one thing you might think about: if you actually spot "details within the dream that aren't easy to notice but might be of importance to the dreamer" and then decide to remember them, you have already made them important, and they will very likely be consigned to memory even if you don't go through a memorization process. Details, no matter how small or unimportant, become very large and important when you turn your attention to them in a dream; remembering them might not be an issue. That said, I will repeat once more that very complicated details, like text or specific things DC's say, might require some memorization (or a moment of wakefulness to physically write them down, in the extreme), so there might be times when you will find yourself needing to memorize something -- but again, that memorization can be done in the same way you do so in waking-life; no new skills ought to be needed.

So: If you are able to memorize an image in a LD, I would think its chances of survival in your memory are just as sound as they might have been if you had memorized it in waking-life, since waking-life abounds in new stimuli after the memorization happened, and that stimuli goes on for far longer than ten minutes. By the same token, simply prioritizing that image might be enough to see it stored in memory.

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I do have one last question: for the sake of not letting this thread left forgotten, what do you think (or anybody else) would be another interesting topic for discussion?

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Given this thread's age, length, my frequently referencing it to save time, and the fact it's been "stickyed," I have a feeling that it will manage to survive a little longer, even if posts are rare these days. I hope that's okay with you that I really do want it to remain focused on memory itself, and access to it during a LD. Since that in itself is a fairly expansive subject to me, maybe there is still more to be said without going off topic. [tl;dr: please keep this thread centered on the topic of memory itself, and access to it; thanks!]

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Silence11:

Hahaha indeed.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm being trolled here, and I really do not have time to spend on such things, so here is one more response and then I'm done; if anyone else wants to chime in, that's fine

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Trolling was never my aim, especially if I'm going to subscribe to a forum and type extensive posts on subjects I'm interested in sharing my opinion. I apologize if it looked as if I was trolling you. Perhaps the "hahahas" were inappropriate (can't see how, but it doesn't matter), I just included them because I found it amusing how much I agreed with many of your ideas, nothing else. In any case, it's not important. I'll just have to type more respectful posts from now on.

The problem here is I misunderstood from the beginning the overall objective of this thread. Almost all of the posts were, indeed, all related to accessing memory in a lucid dream. I only thought that was the case because that specific topic was/is very thought provoking, hence the number of posts. I thought memorization was related to it, turns out it wasn't. And I only insisted on further debating the topic because, although you made me see how it was unnecessary, there was a recommendation in here of a book that maybe offered a different point of view. So, I thought maybe it is relevant, I'm just not getting my point across correctly. In the end, what gives, I guess I'll have to find out in my lucid dreams. Maybe I'll get to the same conclusions you arrived at, who knows.

That said, I thank you and everyone else for the time to at least read what I had to say and offer your thoughts on the subject. Your opinions were all respectfully noted and gave me something to think about.

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Given this thread's age, length, my frequently referencing it to save time, and the fact it's been "stickyed," I have a feeling that it will manage to survive a little longer, even if posts are rare these days. I hope that's okay with you that I really do want it to remain focused on memory itself, and access to it during a LD. Since that in itself is a fairly expansive subject to me, maybe there is still more to be said without going off topic. [tl;dr: please keep this thread centered on the topic of memory itself, and access to it; thanks!]

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Oh, I don't mind at all, and I again didn't get my point across like I intended to (it's happening a lot now). I didn't meant to imply the thread would ultimately cease to exist or anything. I just wanted to keep the conversation going, and on topic now. Access to memory is definitely intriguing, but I can't think of anything else that could be said about it beyond what's been debated, but maybe someone else does, there the question. Although, I do have a couple other things I wanted to say in relation to memory (NOT memorization), but seeing how the previous discussion ended, I'm not even sure myself if it is still, on topic. Thank you again, and have a nice day.

EDIT: Now that I have given it more thought, memorization could actually relate with accessing memory in a lucid dream, but enough has been said about t all.

^^ Thank you for your kind words, Silence, and I'm glad I misunderstood. All curmudgeonly gruffness on my part aside, if you squint a little you might see that this conversation didn't end so poorly, and interesting things were discussed regardless... above all, I don't want you to feel like you shouldn't post.

There really is only one way to find out if a thought you have is on topic, and that's to present it. I think you got the idea now, so if you think what you're thinking about has something to do with memory in LD's, it probably does.

And, to be fair, if you've got an idea about how memorization can helpful to accessing memory in dreams, I'd love to hear it.

:cheers:

Well, memories that were manually memorized are generally more difficult to alter than memories that were automatically stored (there are exceptions, of course). Plus, if we exercise these memories repeatedly, then the same neural pathways that made it possible for us to remember them are further strengthened (memory consolidation), not only making it even harder for these memories to suffer almost any form of alteration, but also improving how fast we can access the same memory every time.

Now, if I understood correctly, if a dreamer who is self-aware were to access memory during a dream, then that person would most likely reach a fully lucid state. Moreover, the aim is not to delve too deeply into any specific memory, but to just access it, to understand that you have a life prior to the dream. This last part is what is proving a little difficult for me (and as I read, for others too) because it's tricky to access memory without involving with any specific memory. As explained before, someone could disconnect from the dream and wake up, or the memory itself could suffer alteration, bringing forth a false memory of the event. Still, perhaps it's a matter of perspective, and solution to these issues may lie in a difference of it. That is, recognizing that the meaning behind the memory is what matters here (reconnecting with waking-life awareness), and not the memory itself.

With all this in mind, I thought, since challenges may arise, could one improve the overall result by use of memorization? What I mean is that, we strive to access memory without falling into any of these pitfalls, but, even if we do (and we will), we can still benefit from our mistakes by taking advantage of the situation. That is, if we were to mistakenly fall into using an episodic memory, and if that memory has been successfully consolidated in memory, then we could (theoretically) use that memory (which would remain unaltered and easy to access) to reconnect with waking self-awareness, and thus reach a fully lucid state. Therefore, even if we were to fail initially, we might still succeed in the long run.

Anyway, this is too much theorizing, and I would love to have some form of evidence to corroborate any of it. But, I'm still a novice and working on it so, for the time being, that's all I got.

That is an interesting concept, Silence; thanks for spelling it out. Of course, I can't resist adding a couple of thoughts:

Before I say anything, though, I'm afraid that I must first say that I completely disagree with this:

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Originally Posted by Silence11

Well, memories that were manually memorized are generally more difficult to alter than memories that were automatically stored (there are exceptions, of course).

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Instead of telling you why I disagree, I offer you a test: Run the top ten memories you possess through your mind (okay; just run ten vivid memories, but be sure to go back a few years, and be honest with yourself), and then ask yourself how many of those memories were preserved through memorization. I have a feeling that you will find most or all of them became accurate, vivid, and above all stable memories all by themselves, with no conscious input from you necessary. It's probably not wise to underestimate the power your mind has for accurately storing information; since our our identities and occasionally our lives depend on efficient memory storage, our "given" hard-wiring for the process is pretty good.

Again, yes, if what you are trying to remember is dull or not critical in a long-term sense (i.e., dates for a history test), then memorization might be necessary. But, given that LD's -- especially in the beginning -- tend to be far from dull and, I believe at least, tend to have real long-term value to you personally, they really do not fit into that mundane experience that doesn't get remembered well.

This holds true, I think for the quality of lucid moments being recalled upon waking, As well.

In my mind, though, all that has little to do with what we're really talking about here, which is accessing memory, and not the process of remembering itself; so, moving on:

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Plus, if we exercise these memories repeatedly, then the same neural pathways that made it possible for us to remember them are further strengthened (memory consolidation), not only making it even harder for these memories to suffer almost any form of alteration, but also improving how fast we can access the same memory every time.

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This may be true, but I have something for you to consider: Focusing your attention to memorization -- say, repeatedly exercising a memory for the sake of being sure it is accurately recording (though, again, you might be underestimating your brain's ability to be accurate on its own) -- seems to be an action that would do a lot to draw your attention away from the dream itself, as well as your state of mind. So sure, you might perfectly memorize the dream snippet on which you are focused, but you might be doing so at the expense of your lucidity, thanks to the distraction of that focus on something other than your dream, and your presence in it. I'm not sure if that trade would be worth making.

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Now, if I understood correctly, if a dreamer who is self-aware were to access memory during a dream, then that person would most likely reach a fully lucid state. Moreover, the aim is not to delve too deeply into any specific memory, but to just access it, to understand that you have a life prior to the dream. This last part is what is proving a little difficult for me (and as I read, for others too) because it's tricky to access memory without involving with any specific memory.

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I may be a bit dense here, but I've never quite gotten why people have trouble understanding that, once its been accessed*, the presence of memory does not necessarily equal remembering specific things.

I think people might be trying to look for more meaning in what is, to me at least, very simple: that the presence of your memory serves to complete "You" in the dream, and it does so on its own by allowing memory to help define/contextualize your surroundings, your presence, and your Self, as it does in waking-life. Just as there is no need to intentionally remember things to navigate waking-life (i.e., your best friend's name, who your mother is, where the bathroom is, what foods taste best, how to brush your teeth, etc.), once you have accessed memory in your LD, there really is no need to remember things in order for memory to function helpfully.

*[Perhaps the confusion lies right there? I think I've said pretty frequently on this thread that you do need to initiate your access to memory with an episodic memory; preferably a recent, simple one, like remembering that your actual body is where you left it, asleep in bed. Once that bit of remembering succeeds, though, there should be no need to do any subsequent remembering for as long as you maintain your waking-life self-awareness.]

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As explained before, someone could disconnect from the dream and wake up, or the memory itself could suffer alteration, bringing forth a false memory of the event. Still, perhaps it's a matter of perspective, and solution to these issues may lie in a difference of it. That is, recognizing that the meaning behind the

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Again, consciously remembering is not the only thing that memory does for us. What matters -- at least in terms of what I'm talking about here -- is the presence of that part of your mind, of your identity, that is memory, and reconnecting that part with waking-life awareness in the dream. Though they certainly have a better chance of surviving into waking-life if memory is present during the dream, specific memories are really not the priory here.

So it isn't so much recognizing the meaning of memory's presence, I think, as much as it simply to allow that presence to be, well, present.

Now, time, at last, to set aside my annoying and ever redundant disagreement:

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With all this in mind, I thought, since challenges may arise, could one improve the overall result by use of memorization? What I mean is that, we strive to access memory without falling into any of these pitfalls, but, even if we do (and we will), we can still benefit from our mistakes by taking advantage of the situation. That is, if we were to mistakenly fall into using an episodic memory, and if that memory has been successfully consolidated in memory, then we could (theoretically) use that memory (which would remain unaltered and easy to access) to reconnect with waking self-awareness, and thus reach a fully lucid state. Therefore, even if we were to fail initially, we might still succeed in the long run.

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Sure; if I understand you correctly, that could work.

If what you're saying is that the very act of memorization tends to create access to memory, then we could -- instead of struggling to remember that sleeping body, or being non-lucidly fooled by a false memory -- simply commit to memory something in the dream, and the commission of that memory (aka, memorization) fires up memory in the dream. That seems like a good idea, and might deserve some testing. Who knows? with a little experimentation you might just introduce a new technique for powering up lucidity during the dream -- a technique that could be easily practiced in waking-life, which is important.

If I've completely misunderstood that paragraph, as I fear I may have, let me know.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Instead of telling you why I disagree, I offer you a test: Run the top ten memories you possess through your mind (okay; just run ten vivid memories, but be sure to go back a few years, and be honest with yourself), and then ask yourself how many of those memories were preserved through memorization. I have a feeling that you will find most or all of them became accurate, vivid, and above all stable memories all by themselves, with no conscious input from you necessary. It's probably not wise to underestimate the power your mind has for accurately storing information; since our our identities and occasionally our lives depend on efficient memory storage, our "given" hard-wiring for the process is pretty good.

Again, yes, if what you are trying to remember is dull or not critical in a long-term sense (i.e., dates for a history test), then memorization might be necessary. But, given that LD's -- especially in the beginning -- tend to be far from dull and, I believe at least, tend to have real long-term value to you personally, they really do not fit into that mundane experience that doesn't get remembered well.

This holds true, I think for the quality of lucid moments being recalled upon waking, As well.

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I know this is going to be long and unrelated but, I felt the need to comment:

Fair enough, those examples were all memorable without use of memorization. Still, I can’t help but argue that sometimes, we do take our memory for granted, even for those vivid memories. For example, as I did the test, I remembered an event that occurred a year ago, when my soccer team had won our very first cup after years of trying. It was a very memorable experience; the match was close and it got decided during the last 10 minutes. We even organized a party after it. We celebrated, we drank and laughed, and all over an incredible night.

Several months ago, I was talking with my friends about it, and I was surprised to know I had ignored some of what had happened that night. Sure, the instances where I was personally involved in were easy to recall, like who scored the winning goal, or the final score, or the general occurrence of events. However, if I wanted to remember more than that, then it gets complicated. For example, when talking with my friends, we had to dig a little bit to find out who else ended up scoring, or who made the final pass to the last goal, or how was the natural flow of the game. Where we below score all the time? Did D. score first, or was it J. who did that? Oh yeah! I remembered E. scored that awesome goal against three players. No! that was during the semifinals, remember? Oh, I see, so how was E.’s goal in the final? You see, we ended up remembering more together than what I could by myself. The memories were still there, but I needed a little help to access them. Who knows in how much detail I can remember the game after a couple more years.

The memories that stay with us after all those years end up being the most important, the most memorable. Nonetheless, those moments take part overall in a bigger memory of the experience, where the rest of details might be left ignored.

So, I offer to you a counter test to your test: relive those 10 memories, just this time, bring with you someone who was also present in them. Then, compare both memories and see if you missed anything. And that’s the thing, you’ll end up having a better memory together than by yourself. Sometimes, you may end up including people or events inside that never happened! And this is how false memories work, the important event is included, but the rest of the story that surrounds it changes.

Memory is like a muscle, the more you use it, the better you get at it. For the rest of our lives, the skewing of our memories is to be expected and not of concern, as we can still remember the general gist of events that occurred in reasonable detail. But, during a dream, where an alteration of a memory can suppress our awareness, then it could become an issue.

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This may be true, but I have something for you to consider: Focusing your attention to memorization -- say, repeatedly exercising a memory for the sake of being sure it is accurately recording (though, again, you might be underestimating your brain's ability to be accurate on its own) -- seems to be an action that would do a lot to draw your attention away from the dream itself, as well as your state of mind. So sure, you might perfectly memorize the dream snippet on which you are focused, but you might be doing so at the expense of your lucidity, thanks to the distraction of that focus on something other than your dream, and your presence in it. I'm not sure if that trade would be worth making.

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Well, I meant it more as an exercise when one is awake. You make sure the memory is successfully consolidated before you sleep, and then, (theoretically) the mind alone would have an easier time accessing the same memory without too much hassle on our part during the dream. Then again, if it were to fall on our hands, because we have practiced beforehand, then it would also become a lot easier to remember during the dream. So, losing lucidity shouldn’t be a problem. Also, we’re talking about an exercise that could take you mere seconds, a minute to do at most, so it isn’t too much work the way I see it.

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I may be a bit dense here, but I've never quite gotten why people have trouble understanding that, once its been accessed*, the presence of memory does not necessarily equal remembering specific things.

I think people might be trying to look for more meaning in what is, to me at least, very simple: that the presence of your memory serves to complete "You" in the dream, and it does so on its own by allowing memory to help define/contextualize your surroundings, your presence, and your Self, as it does in waking-life. Just as there is no need to intentionally remember things to navigate waking-life (i.e., your best friend's name, who your mother is, where the bathroom is, what foods taste best, how to brush your teeth, etc.), once you have accessed memory in your LD, there really is no need to remember things in order for memory to function helpfully.

*[Perhaps the confusion lies right there? I think I've said pretty frequently on this thread that you do need to initiate your access to memory with an episodic memory; preferably a recent, simple one, like remembering that your actual body is where you left it, asleep in bed. Once that bit of remembering succeeds, though, there should be no need to do any subsequent remembering for as long as you maintain your waking-life self-awareness.]

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I think the issue is not that it’s difficult to understand, like you said, the idea is very simple, the problem lies during memory access, not after it. I could be wrong. I can only speak for myself here, but as a beginner I end up falling into this type of errors more times than I would like to admit. It’s as if I say the word elephant but ask you not to think about an elephant. Sometimes you can’t help it, it’s natural. I know in my case when I tried it, I intended to remember that I had my real body asleep and what that means. But, as I did, I got distracted and ended up thinking about or visualizing/feeling my actual body in bed, and ended waking up. Then again, maybe I’ll get better at ignoring this the more I do it in my dreams. Or maybe it really is that simple to do, and everyone here is having fully lucid dreams left and right, and I’m just here overcomplicating my life over nothing.

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Again, consciously remembering is not the only thing that memory does for us. What matters -- at least in terms of what I'm talking about here -- is the presence of that part of your mind, of your identity, that is memory, and reconnecting that part with waking-life awareness in the dream. Though they certainly have a better chance of surviving into waking-life if memory is present during the dream, specific memories are really not the priory here.

So it isn't so much recognizing the meaning of memory's presence, I think, as much as it simply to allow that presence to be, well, present.

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Yep, that’s what I was referring to about when I talked about meaning, as in the objective of the exercise we’re doing when accessing memory.

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Now, time, at last, to set aside my annoying and ever redundant disagreement:

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To save you from further annoyance, if you feel I haven’t gotten the point yet, just ignore the above responses. I’ll take it as a need to reread again and understand.

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Sure; if I understand you correctly, that could work.

If what you're saying is that the very act of memorization tends to create access to memory, then we could -- instead of struggling to remember that sleeping body, or being non-lucidly fooled by a false memory -- simply commit to memory something in the dream, and the commission of that memory (aka, memorization) fires up memory in the dream. That seems like a good idea, and might deserve some testing. Who knows? with a little experimentation you might just introduce a new technique for powering up lucidity during the dream -- a technique that could be easily practiced in waking-life, which is important.

If I've completely misunderstood that paragraph, as I fear I may have, let me know.

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I’m saying that the very act of memorization could IMPROVE access to memory. For example, if I’m being fooled into non-lucidity by a false memory (like an episodic memory of me sleeping in bed), I can memorize the memory of it before I sleep. Then, next time I’m dreaming, should I fall into that path again, it won’t matter, because the episodic memory would not be subject to alteration (theoretically). In the end, there won’t be a false memory, which in turn won’t cause lucidity to be lost (I assume), and, it could still leave one fully lucid.

Although, what you propose is something I hadn’t considered at all and may be a better idea than what I had proposed!

Also:

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instead of struggling to remember that sleeping body, or being non-lucidly fooled by a false memory

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Another idea I had. When I was reading on memory, I found an interesting fact. Our brain can determine in advance whether there is any point in searching memory for something. So, anything that is absurd won’t retrieve a memory. For example, if I were to ask you: “What is Socrates’ telephone number?” your brain would recognize such question as absurd in that no search could ever produce an answer, thus, no memory to be retrieved.

Looking back at dreams, even non-lucid ones fall into this concept. Therefore, there are times and ways for false memories to never exist, as they are absurd, even for a dream. That, I find very intriguing. So, one could (theoretically) access memory without any need to remember anything, by asking questions like these when lucid.

I read a long time ago pharos used to keep symbols above door entrances to induce reality checks (for the life of me cant find link) but will look for it

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Originally Posted by sivason

What was a powerful training routine for me, was to have only this one primary goal, and keep going this until it is not too hard.

Dream Goal: Stop and try to remember where you are sleeping. Then what were you doing at bedtime. Then what phase of your life you are in, such as retired, in summer school, recently involved in a new relationship.

It is not as shiny as flying to another planet, but as goals that lead to better LDing this is what I suggest.


I hope that is the kind of stuff you are wanting to talk about in this thread, Sageous. It seems to fit. Thanks for taking the time to bring this topic back up, before it gets buried in dust. It is important.

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Thank you! i'm all in

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Originally Posted by Sageous

tl;dr: the memory I speak of here is, I suppose, nothing more -- and nothing less -- than the memory you access during waking life. It is the experiential, foundational background that defines your individual self. That memory must be present during a LD seems to me to be a no-brainer -- while I’m awake. When I’m asleep, and memory access is turned off, the story is much different, and it can take real effort, and strong self-awareness, to access waking-life memory.

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This is such important wisdom that the whole thread deserves a little bump.

After pondering all of this for a couple of days and working diligently during those days with a somewhat personalized RRC that focuses strongly on short term memory.......I finally asked the question during a NLD. You know the question......and I knew the answer. :armflap: :nodyes:

Memory was the fundamental that I was missing and now another corner has been turned. :)