If you hold your breath in lucid, do you stop physicaly breathing as well?

[Nfri]

I was thinking about this and I'm curious if it's true. LaBerge in the bible says that since breathing system and eyes are not paralysed, you normally control it in the REM phase. So If I hold breath for few minutes in a lucid dream, would my body stopped breathing as well? I'm not talking about subtle breathing changes, but about completely stopping.

[LDman]

I'm not sure, that would mean people with sleep apnea suffocate in their dreams, not?

[ThreeCat]

I think this is true, nfri. I've meditated while lucid and found my "breath" to correspond with my body's breathing. It would not be hard to hold that breath . Also, same reason why the nose punch RC works. EDIT: Ahem, nose pinch RC?

[~Dreamer~]

I don't think you'd be able to hold your breath for minutes in a dream. I taught my previous partner to lucid dream, and I was often able to tell when he was lucid in his sleep because I'd hear his breathing pattern change, and there'd be a spike at the moment he attained lucidity. I also accidentally fell asleep while voice recording a DJ entry once, and became lucid during that period of sleep. I did a nose plug RC in the dream, and listened back to the recording afterwards and heard a sharp inhalation that corresponded with the RC. I'm definitely convinced that your breathing in waking life matches your breathing in dreams, or at least closely resembles it. (I get a bit self conscious during lucid sex for that reason sometimes, haha.)

[sparkley]

They're the same breathing patterns in real life, and like the time is different I heard. So I wouldn't do it, because there's no reason to, you're always breathing no matter what in your lucid dream You can change it also.

[Erik112]

Short answer: yes. Long answer: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees. Seriously now, yes, your breathing in dream is actually real. That's why you are able to breathe underwater and also as someone mentioned, that's why the nose plug RC works. Yes, you can hold your breath in a lucid dream and I believe that you will do that in reality as well.

[Sageous]

Oh my. So then, if you breathe underwater in a dream your waking life lungs will fill with water? If you scream at someone in a dream, your neighbors will call the police for all the noise? No, unless you are practically awake, if you hold your breath in a dream, your body will go right along breathing on its own, mostly disinterested in your dream body's actions. Your breath might sputter a bit, but it won't stop. Yes, there are minor exceptions to this. Things like strong emotions, meditations, or even occasional conversations will effect your breathing, but that effect will be slight -- sort of a distant reflection of what's going on in the dream. Keep in mind also that these exceptions tend to be unconscious reactions to what's going on in your dream/meditation, and not a result of your direct conscious input in the dream. Even extreme moments, like nightmares, barely change your breathing rates -- you might be running madly and screaming your head off in the dream, but your physical body is doing little more than murmuring a bit, with perhaps a little panting added to the regular breathing rate (the "big screams" from nightmares that I'm sure we've all experienced come as you are waking yourself up from your terror -- in a sense it is an unconscious reaction by your body to get you up, and not your screams filtering through from the dream -- if that makes any sense). And no, 3Cat (and Erik), the nose-plug RC works specifically because what you do with your breath in a dream does not correspond with waking life (you plug your nose and discover that you can still breathe, meaning that your breathing is going right along its merry way, regardless of your action). Also, Nfri, if I remember correctly, the results of LaBerge's experiments with controlling breath during dreams were spotty at best. Yes, you had input into your breathing, but you can't change it dramatically (like adding clear speech, or stopping it completely). I believe all he managed were subtle changes, even though the subject was trying very hard. The only warning I can think of is if you think you are in a dream but are really awake or almost awake, and you are literally holding your breath in waking life because, well, you are awake. But even here your autonomic systems are keeping track of things, and won't let you hold your breath for any dangerous length of time. For instance: that breath you drew, Dreamer, was likely more a result of your being almost as awake as asleep, so your instructions were still being followed as if you were awake. I'm sure there will be a chorus of objections to this, and a bunch of "well this happened to me" stories, but be assured that if you hold your breath in a dream, your sleeping body will continue breathing.... and even if it does stop, it will only stop for as long as it normally would, before resuming breathing as necessary. So, though your breathing is (obviously) not shut off during sleep, your conscious access to it is quite limited, and you will not stop breathing if you hold your breath.

[Laurelindo]

According to Stephen LaBerge, your breathing in a dream corresponds to your waking life breathing, just like your eye movements. This might make some people wonder how it is possible to feel like you suffocate or drown in a dream - I recently had a dream myself about drowning, I was standing on the bottom of a pool and couldn't get away, and suddenly started getting that uncomfortable feeling of not being able to breathe, and this made me panic a bit, (it wasn't that terrible, though) - and I woke up completely unscathed. I think this is different from actually breathing because it is more about a feeling, rather than an action. You can imagine pain while daydreaming, but this won't make you actually feel any pain in your physical body.

[ThreeCat]

.And no, 3Cat (and Erik), the nose-plug RC works specifically because what you do with your breath in a dream does not correspond with waking life (you plug your nose and discover that you can still breathe, meaning that your breathing is going right along its merry way, regardless of your action). Yep, disagree, thought not entirely. First of all, breathing is largely unconscious until our awareness is drawn to the process itself. During that time, it is understandable that the breath does as it pleases. On the other hand, if the breath is always erratic, and always unconscious, and never within our control, how is it that when I perform a nose pinch, an tell myself to breath, a breath begins at that moment?. Why not in the middle of a breath, or during a pause in breathing, if I do not have control over the breath? This should at least happen sometimes and yet it has occurred for me exactly never. . So then, if you breathe underwater in a dream your waking life lungs will fill with water? If you scream at someone in a dream, your neighbors will call the police for all the noise? This seems a bit dramatic, as claiming control over a physiological process is not the same as claiming you can "bring something back from the dreaming," even if it is just water in your lungs. That being said, I am always interested in learning more and plan to test this as soon as possible.

[Sageous]

^^ Who said breath was always erratic? If anything, it is always regular and automatic, and can be made erratic by your input. Telling yourself to breathe at the moment of a nose pinch, and then dreaming that you are breathing (that your breath begins at that moment), is, again, the whole point of the RC: if your breathing seems "artificial" then perhaps you are dreaming... you are not changing your physical body's breathing patterns during a nose-pinch RC, but recognizing that you cannot change it during a dream -- that is its entire purpose. Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other? My point was that the nose-pinch RC was meant to let you know that, during a dream, your physical body is still breathing back in your bed while your dream body is doing something that clearly should prevent that breathing (like it does in waking life). In other words, the nose-pinch RC literally confirms that your dream-body DC does not control your physical sleeping body's breathing. Sure, with effort or strong unconscious emotion you will influence your physical breath, but you'll never fatally stop it. What am I missing here?

[Sensei]

I would say that generally it doesn't correspond. I once jumped into a lake and held my breath for over 2 minutes due to low awareness and then realized that I didn't need to worry about it. I can hold my breath for this long, but I doubt I was holding my breath in waking. Sometimes when talking in a dream, you will talk in real life, those would be the times that your breathing is the same as waking. Not every time I talk does it come out though. As Sageous said though, it doesn't matter because your body won't let you hold your breath for long enough to cause damage. It would matter if you think that your heart beating faster or you getting excited will wake you up, but I am pretty excited all the time in dreams.

[ThreeCat]

^^ Who said breath was always erratic? If anything, it is always regular and automatic, and can be made erratic by your input. Telling yourself to breathe at the moment of a nose pinch, and then dreaming that you are breathing (that your breath begins at that moment), is, again, the whole point of the RC: if your breathing seems "artificial" then perhaps you are dreaming... you are not changing your physical body's breathing patterns during a nose-pinch RC, but recognizing that you cannot change it during a dream -- that is its entire purpose. Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other? My point was that the nose-pinch RC was meant to let you know that, during a dream, your physical body is still breathing back in your bed while your dream body is doing something that clearly should prevent that breathing (like it does in waking life). In other words, the nose-pinch RC literally confirms that your dream-body DC does not control your physical sleeping body's breathing. Sure, with effort or strong unconscious emotion you will influence your physical breath, but you'll never fatally stop it. What am I missing here? We might be, though I think we still disagree on a certain point. First: erratic was a poor choice if words. I knew this as I typed it but am on my phone so editing is tedious. What I would have liked to have said is that (as I am understanding it) you are saying that the "breath" we are experiencing in a dream is a dream breath (you say that we are dreaming that we are breathing, as opposed to--I am interpreting here--actually controlling the waking life breath). I think this is an unnecessary contortion of what I think is more likely happening--we are experiencing our actual breath. My interpretation of the nose pinch RC (and how I use it) is to prove to me that my dream body does not obstruct the breath, yes, but not that my mind has no control over it. Thinking hard enough about the waking life body returns awareness to it, and I have found that becoming aware of my breath during a dream almost always prompts my dream body (often by tipping the scenery, or otherwise fooling with gravity) to return to the position in which my waking life body is sleeping. If I choose, I can move a waking life limb but this always disrupts the dream and returns me to hypnopompic (but I can still renter via DEILD). The point being that my "dream breath" seems uncannily tied to the state of my waking body--which makes me think it is my actual breath, and not a dream projection. I thought nfri's original question was literally whether or not the breath can be held--for several seconds, or a few minutes. As for it fatally stopping in a dream, I also think that is unlikely simply because one cannot really commit suicide via holding one's breath. I think if one is not aware of the body and simply "holds their breath," then maybe they are dreaming this and not actually influencing the sleeping body. On the other hand, it seems unreasonable to me that the breath cannot be stopped for several seconds, merely to demonstrate that it is possible. Concerning erratic though--breathing is often irregular in dreams. I am often able to recognize when my wife has entered REM based on a change in breathing pattern. It is not same deep, even breathing of NREM sleep, and can changed based on--I am assuming here--interaction with dream content.

[Sageous]

Okay, I think I can agree with most of that, and you also reminded me of something I meant to say in the first post that I left out: Lucidity, tends to work best when we are extremely close to the border of wakefulness. This is especially true with WILD. So yes, since you are on waking-life's door in many a LD, it is possible to hear your own breath in the distance. So you can acknowledge with the nose-pinch that you're dreaming because the breath you hear in the distance hasn't changed. This is not what I was saying, but it is also true.

[Nfri]

A lot of contradictory opinions here... Sageous you said that breath is controlable indirectly. Although it seems most likely, there is lot of different claims. I'm also not sure about this - if it is indirect. Do you guys think that eye control is as well indirect? In the next lucid, I'm gonna try to hold breath as long as I can... If it's direct control, I assume that I will wake up with urgent need of breath. If not, I assume that I don't have to breath in lucid at all. and about nosepinch - I think that nosepinch RC does not anything to do with stopping breathing. It's like turn off light switch - the light will still glow. You don't breath your nose holes in lucid, so If you gonna block it, you will still breath, as the light switch does not anything to do with the ligh bulb.

[Bharmo]

Search for the Omnilucidity thread, you'll find people there whose technique to becoming lucid was not breathing at all in their dreams, as a way to realize they were dreaming, and will find many people who tried this but couldn't do it because they stopped breathing IWL and woke up suffocated

[Nfri]

I tried it and this is what happened. At the end of my lucid I remember that I want to make this breathing experiment. So when the dream has started fading away. I hold my breath. I saw shiny pictures - something like HI. Suddenly I felt my body but I think that was FA body. I still hold breath until I need take a breath badly. I wake up with the urgent feeling to take a breath, but my body seems to not have this urgent need. I think that was only psychological feeling. I think what happened is that only when I returned to my body, the body stop breathing. So my psychological feeling of needing air was much stronger than my body signalized. = I was psychologically out of air for 2 minutes and my body was out of air for 10 seconds. I need to do next proper experiment in a solid lucid and not in the fading one.

[snoop]

I've not breathed in dreams both lucid and not and in neither case do I think I stopped breathing in reality because if I really held my breath that long I would be dead. Not to mention it felt like I was still receiving oxygen just the same in the dream regardless of breathing or not. Breathing can be affected by dreams or other sleep disturbances at times, but usually they aren't. Just because there are exceptions, it doesn't mean that it is common place. What about dreams in which time dilation occurs? What about dreams where you aren't even human or even a thing, just an observer? Perhaps none of you have had these dreams, but I have them quite often, in fact, as often as I dream of being me. Stephen LaBerge proved with the eyes that there are exceptions, obviously, but not that this happens 100% of the time you dream. The fact that they could control their eyes and they had the specific intent to do so suggests that in order for you to stop breathing in real life, you must stop breathing in your dream with the intent of holding your breath in your real body.