Thread: Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA

Today I caught myself in a problem that might occur while trying to be "mindful" of the present moment; you can get too caught up in the concentration side, basically if you constantly feel "gotta be mindful, gotta be mindful, gotta be mindful" (not thinking that precisely, just really concerned / concentrating on it) you are in fact not being mindful, as I have observed.

Getting so caught up in what you are doing currently means you are not using the most important part of mindfulness and that is memory.

2009 – XVIII

sustained voluntary attention (samadhi) is closely related to memory, because in order to deliberately sustain one’s attention upon a chosen object, one must continue to remember to do so from moment to moment, faithfully returning back to refocus on that object whenever the mind wanders away from it. Likewise, in Buddhism, the faculty of “mindfulness” (smrti) refers not only to moment-to-moment awareness of present events. Instead, the primary connotation of this Sanskrit term (and its corresponding Pali term sati) is recollection. This includes long-term, short-term, and working memory, non-forgetful, present-centered awareness, and also prospective memory, i.e., remembering to be aware of something or to do something at a designated time in the future.

So basically, if you concentrate too hard on mindfulness you're not leaving any room for actual mindfulness.

This may be one of the reasons you sometimes see the suggestion to forget about lucid dreaming for a while, take a break, actually helping to achieve lucidity.

So while doing your daily ADA / mindfulness / prospective-memory etc... try and strike a balance between being mindful and concentration, if one is too extreme the other suffers.


Take a step back, take some deep breaths, loosen up.

That's great, so when we're doing it right, we're getting a workout in both self-awareness and memory, the LD foundations!

The "relax" is really important. Stop and smell the flowers (and be mindful while you're doing it!). Before transitioning from one activity to another one, take 3 deep breaths and center yourself and (re)activate that mindfulness if it's slipped. I did this today just now after getting off the bus and before starting the walk to my destination.

Congrats, FryingMan, so great to see you getting all this success recently

This thread is throwing up so many insights, it's definitely changed the way I see awareness and mindfulness. Keep those links coming, Memm!

It might also help to think "am I forgetting anything?" while you're smelling the flowers; that could perhaps be the one and only "critical test" question that we actually need.

By the way what I mean when I said strike a balance between concentration and mindfulness is that, in the seated meditation for example you can focus really well on the breath and your mind becomes clear and doesn't wander at all, you can sit for hours like that just single-mindedly focused on the breath.

That's great for concentration, but you're not actually using mindfulness.

In fact for today's meditation session I've decided I will actually work on letting my mind wander, I feel my concentration abilities have grown to somewhat extreme levels.

Some things I have noted over the last few days of my meditation:

- focusing on tasks is easier
- switching tasks is easier
- self-awareness and awareness of environment has improved, dream recall greatly improved (well my recall has always been fairly good, but now I'm noticing more details like conversations, possibly because I have been working on being more aware while talking to people)
- prospective memory has actually suffered, it was better before my current all-day-awareness (not ADA, my own version, just not sure what else to call it) practice began this week and I'm almost certain it's because my ability to focus is outpacing my ability to recall (I'm not sure how to describe it actually, it's a sort of, feeling that you are not just taking in awareness of yourself / senses but also the whole picture, not actually sure it's something that can be put into words)

On one hand the first three are great, I'm enjoying the flexibility, on the other the last one seems the most important for lucidity, so I'm dialling it back to work on mindfulness and try to balance this issue out.


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Here are some excerpts from Mindfulness in Plain English regarding specifically this problem:

These [mindfulness and concentration] must be cultivated together in a balanced manner. Just a bit more emphasis is given to mindfulness, because mindfulness is the center of meditation.

a balance is essential. Too much awareness without calm to balance it will result in a wildly over-sensitized state similar to abusing LSD. Too much concentration without a balancing ratio of awareness will result in the “stone buddha” syndrome, where you get so tranquilized that you sit there like a rock. Both of these are to be avoided.

Put most of your effort into one-pointedness at the beginning.

This one is about how most people have the "monkey-mind" problem, an overactive mind that wanders constantly, I don't think everyone has this problem though. Point is tune your meditation to what you think is you need to work on.

Mindfulness still is the more important of the two components. It should be built as soon as you comfortably can do so. Mindfulness provides the needed foundation for the subsequent development of deeper concentration. Most blunders in this area of balance will correct themselves in time. Right concentration develops naturally in the wake of strong mindfulness. The more you develop the noticing factor, the quicker you will notice the distraction, and the quicker you will pull out of it and return to the formal object of attention. The natural result is increased concentration. And as concentration develops, it assists the development of mindfulness. The more concentration power you have, the less chance there is of launching off on a long chain of analysis about the distraction. You simply note the distraction and return your attention to where it is supposed to be.

After that [monkey mind has decreased], emphasize mindfulness. If you find yourself getting frantic, emphasize concentration. If you find yourself going into a stupor, emphasize mindfulness. Overall, mindfulness is the one to emphasize.

Mindfulness in Plain English is a really excellent text Mindfulness is definitely the one to focus on, that's why Ron Crouch (on the alohadharma site) says to go to vippasana as soon as you can count to ten without distraction, and I certainly find vipasanna the more enjoyable practice. Of course, all Buddhist schools will differ in their approach, for instance, in Zen there is not really the divide between shamatha and vippasana, you simply progress from zazen with an object to zazen without an object - there is a similar progression in Tibetan Zhine.

I'll take this opportunity to recount my experiences in the last few days. Namely, exhaustion. I find this every time I take up ADA: a short term spike in recall and lucidity, followed by a crash. I've been too tired to practice ADA, and my recall has even suffered from the mental strain. I've even let my meditation slip up. I just don't think ADA is sustainable. I think Puffin's DILD Guide - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views is a far more stable approach. We definitely need a more healthy, more mindful approach. Have either of you come across lucid living on the LD4all forums?

On the meditation side, it's starting to have some real waking benefits for me, too! I had initially run into serious problems with it. My anxiety was preventing me from practising it with any effectiveness, even though that was my very reason for meditating in the first place! I've been at it for more than a month, and while I did notice differences in terms of feeling calmer, and an overall greater feeling of wellbeing, when I was actually sat down doing it it was hell. I was so tense that it was leading me controlling my breath and assuming a forced posture in a completely unnatural way, making deep, diaphragmatic breathing impossible. But I knew that this tension was just the physical symptom of the psychological tensions I was trying to undo in the first place, so I stuck with it. Yesterday I finally managed to sit and breathe naturally and the mixture of stillness and awareness was just incredible.

Now that I've overcome this difficulty I think meditation will begin to have even more of an effect on my dreams.

When I practiced meditation briefly last year it only took 10 minutes of meditation, 5 SAT episodes and WBTB combined with SSILD to have lucids - I even had my first WILD: http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/ctha...d-chain-43960/

I actually haven't read about SSILD before, it sounds very interesting, I think I'll try it tonight.

Also it's very good to know how much of a positive effect meditation has had on you. =]

And I agree that ADA is too exhausting, I feel that if a technique causes you to burn out and give up then that in itself is a problem, perhaps more advanced lucid dreamers that have plenty of time on their hands can do it but especially for newbies it might just turn them away from LDs when they feel it takes too much effort.

On top of that the effect on our minds and general well being shouldn't be underestimated, LDs themselves are harmless but if we take our practice in trying to achieve them too far we may actually hurt ourselves.

SSILD can be thought of as intensive meditation to quickly increase your awareness directly before entering a dream.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

SSILD can be thought of as intensive meditation to quickly increase your awareness directly before entering a dream.

I was just about to post that SSILD sounds a lot like a form of meditation, a bit like "breath, sound, body" meditation.

We just can't seem to get away from the topic of meditations can we. =P

Maybe one of these days we'll just be able to condense this to just "want to LD? Here is your day time meditation, here is your night time meditation, do this for a while and you'll get LDs".

Well if it's good enough for the dream yogis...

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Well if it's good enough for the dream yogis...

True, we sometimes think that LDing is some new trend when really we seem to just be re-discovering things that have already been known for thousands of years and all the techniques we have written up are just pieces of meditations and philosophies that have already been around forever.

How far do these things stretch back I wonder, did the first cavemen lucid dream?

What if it was easy and natural and everybody did it to improve their hunting strategies / skills. Better to dream about hunting that tiger before you actually do it, you only get one shot in real life....

I've been reading lots of things tonight about SSILD, it sounds very much like meditation and the creator himself even says it's "mental conditioning" which sounds on par with the basic goal of meditation which is to simply change the brain for the better through a specific practice.

With all the success stories I'm quite excited to try this and it follows almost exactly all the things we've been talking about in this thread.

Changing your mental state to one which lucid dreams seems to be the key strategy in the more successful techniques, rather than learning new habits.

Originally Posted by Memm

How far do these things stretch back I wonder, did the first cavemen lucid dream?

I often wonder this myself; either the anthropological discussion on dreams is scarce, or I haven't found the lot of it yet. I would imagine the mind's eye of the caveman is something not easily accessed... But it speaks to the question: is dream recall completely unnecessary, or have we just lot our ability to recall over time due to a social neglect?

The Mindfulness in Plain English excerpts are yet another great distinction I have gotten from this thread! I have slacked for the last few months on my meditation practice and it has had a drastic effect on my dream recall. Whenever I am stuck in a rut it usually takes roughly just a week of daily meditations to notice at least a slight increase in recall, and then I think it's back, slack on the meditation, and the recall fades. You'd think I would catch on...
This thread's info (and enthusiasm) is a big motivator. Thanks!

Yes, ADA is exhausting, so don't do it! I just notice the world around, more than I used to, it's not tiring. Instead of walking with your eyes on the pavement, look around. Don't try to notice the shadows produced by the hairs on the legs of flies, etc., just notice....more. The clouds, that guy in the park fixing his bike's flat tire, the funny tall weeds growing. And be mindful of what you're doing in this looking around .

Small victory today, I had an actual tuned-in moment in my (otherwise completely zoned out) weekly meeting at work!

Originally Posted by Memm

I've been reading lots of things tonight about SSILD, it sounds very much like meditation and the creator himself even says it's "mental conditioning" which sounds on par with the basic goal of meditation which is to simply change the brain for the better through a specific practice.

With all the success stories I'm quite excited to try this and it follows almost exactly all the things we've been talking about in this thread.

Changing your mental state to one which lucid dreams seems to be the key strategy in the more successful techniques, rather than learning new habits.

Meh, I'm not a huge fan on SSILD, there's a big thread on it here on DV, I'd suggest taking further SSILD talk there. I do it from time to time to help focus when falling asleep, sometimes, when my normal "sleep relaxation kung fu" is not proving effective. Frankly I haven't been having trouble sleeping recently, for which I'm very grateful!

So many great resources listed here! Let's get them organized into a reference bibliography so that nothing is lost:

• Mindfulness in Plain English | Bhante Gunaratana
• How to Meditate | Aloha Dharma
• TIBETAN YOGAS OF DREAM AND SLEEP | Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

Mindfulness in Plain English is going right to the top of my reading list.

You've listed few good examples of difference between WL and dreaming also know as dream sings. These are almost all external things in dreams. I cover it up by not observing the external dream factors, but only focusing on my feeling being SURPRISED (having the feeling that you get when something unexpected happens).

Mindfulness of Breathing | Wildmind Buddhist Meditation

I would actually recommend the above followed by Mindfulness in Plain English, the reason is that I feel Mindfulness in Plain English is actually poorly structured as a book, it just feels all over the place sometimes, it has a lot of great insights and it is definitely a must-read, you will be referring to it a lot but it can also be confusing and in my opinion can come off as somewhat cynical (I don't think that's the intention and once you start meditating you realise what it's talking about, but at first it might seem very critical of human nature and quite spiritual).

I read MiPE first and found it a lot easier to get my head around certain aspects of it after going through Wildmind and http://viewonbuddhism.org/

The rest is practice, practice, practice! Some things can't be put into words, once you meditate for a decent amount of time often a lot of questions you might have get answered through experience.

Either that or find a meditation teacher. (Disclaimer: I experimented until I felt I figured it out, but that is probably not for everyone)

In the end the only person that knows you best is you, so follow the path you feel is the right one. =]



PS: by "figured it out" I don't want to come off as someone that understands it thoroughly, I am definitely NOT a meditation expert or even qualified to teach, I'm still constantly learning things myself. I'm also not a Buddhist, although I agree with a lot of it as a human being. I'm just a guy that has "been there done that" for a bit of it and done a decent amount of research into the subject. So please take everything I say with a grain of salt, Buddha said to test things and work them out for yourself, he was right. I'm just recommending certain things I feel would make the journey a little easier and wish I knew back when I started.

I'm also interested in developing brain health and function, as I think these are critical to lucid dreaming as well. I don't do logic puzzles frequently but with the new practice of mindfulness, I've found that concentrating on solving logic puzzles while staying mindful is a real workout! This will help I think my major zone-out time, which is when concentrating on work. The "Flow Colors" game (google it) is not very hard to do (if you're decent at visualisation and simple logic like the process of elimination), I try to solve the entire puzzle in my head before making any moves, and the added dimension of remaining mindful while doing makes it all the more interesting!

Any other favorite puzzles or logic/memory/visualization games that people find good for a brain workout? I don't play shooting or fantasy games or anything like that as I consider them a waste of life and time. Come to think of it they're pretty contradictory to the goal of being present in the here and now as well.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Any other favorite puzzles or logic/memory/visualization games that people find good for a brain workout? I don't play shooting or fantasy games or anything like that as I consider them a waste of life and time. Come to think of it they're pretty contradictory to the goal of being present in the here and now as well.

Hehe, I actually do play video games. I find that after a meditation session, once you have reached a very mindful state that reaction times, decisions, clarity etc... are all at amazingly high levels. You also don't feel "attachment" to the game or to what is happening within the game, you actually have a much more enjoyable experience playing, it's somewhat difficult to describe. I suppose in the Buddhist sense they are a waste of time, on the other hand if you play a fast paced shoot'em'up after a meditation session you can 1) experience a very clear and very "practical" showcasing of just how important and even powerful the mindful state can be and 2) the game does try to really draw you in which is why it's a great workout for resisting that temptation and staying mindful.

There's plenty of warning not to get caught up in how "useful" mindfulness can be, since that can degrade your mindfulness; I feel that has more to do with not getting attached to the feeling, like you would be to being "high", regardless I don't think there is a problem with appreciating how amazing it is and seeing its usefulness for life and skill development.

You might like the Myst series, very good for problem solving abilities and imagination in general.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Any other favorite puzzles or logic/memory/visualization games that people find good for a brain workout?

I tried one of those popular "brain training" applications, call Lumosity, for only one a few days. I am sure that I was supposed to use it more than that, but they are expensive to use regularly! Anyways, I was doing the memory games to increase my dream recall, and I did have a lucid dream after a few days of playing it.
Of course the possibility of placebo effect is there, but it seemed to help. I would like to try using it regularly, but I am just not a fan of staring at a game on my phone...though maybe I should start.

Interesting article on Buddhist '4 power bases' applied to lucidity. The Four Bases Of Power And Using Vipassana Meditation To Become Aware 24/7

Hmm I don't quite get how it is proposed to play this mindfulness? Could you elaborate a bit more on that?

Originally Posted by Hukif

Hmm I don't quite get how it is proposed to play this mindfulness? Could you elaborate a bit more on that?

Do you mean how to play the game with mindfulness?

Well for me, it means not zoning out into total concentration on the game to the expense of mindfulness. Trying to avoid that feeling that you've zoned out and haven't been aware of what's going on around you, generally not losing that "mindful" feeling that you're aware of yourself and your surroundings. Instead of finishing the game and realizing, "oh wow, I was totally zoned out on that game while playing it, but now I'm back," try to stay "tuned in" while playing it so that mindfulness is continuous: it's there before you play, while you play, and after you play.

It seems a good exercise in simultaneous focus. sivason says that dream stability is all about simultaneous focus: on your dream body, on the dream scene, and your dream goals/actions. This rings true with me because my dreams almost always end ONLY when I withdraw focus from dream body and/or dream scene into an experience I'm having (usually with a DC female ), or into reviewing goals or performing dream control that takes some concentration, like summoning.

Being mindful feels very much like a simultaneous focus dream yoga exercise.

To me it's difficult to put into words, I feel it's one of those things that needs to be experienced, mindfulness goes beyond simple "multitasking" or paying attention to multiple things at the same time. I feel it's a state of mind, much like lucidity in a dream.

It's almost like being focused single mindedly and at the time unfocused and relaxed. It's something of a delicate balance and so far I've only been able to achieve to for short periods of time through meditation, or at least such a high level of it (who really knows how high it goes?).

If you imagine you have peripheral vision of the mind, this basically removes it and turns into clarity all around.

Seriously though I can't put it into words, you'll know it when you feel it.

No sure if it will work or not since it seems it's uncertain if habits actually make their way into dreams but I think remembering to check things out will certainly train mindfulness.

Actually back when I started LDing all I really did was keep a lookout for electronics; light switches, screens, TVs etc.... and kept noting if they worked because I was convinced "electricity" doesn't work in dreams (back then LD4ALL had this theory that the brain couldn't quite simulate electricity). I got quite a few DILDs just by noticing something electronic.

Well fryingman/memm, thats what I mean. It seems like it hasn't been defined yet and can be loosely attached to awareness?

I think of it as something more related to "understanding" than "awareness" but not sure, so thats why I asked.

Example, gravity RC is based on a dual understanding of what "normal/abnormal" gravity is, and which reality it puts you into rather than just being aware of it or doing questions about the state, I mean... lazy and all so that was the simplest way I could think of at the time.

And on that note, instead of items lacking in dreams have you guys tried finding items that exist in reality and might persist in dreams? Gravity = weight check, so I will often feel extra heavy everything because my body is lying down in the real bed.
By the same token, temperature in the place you are sleeping at =/= dream temperature/feeling, same for stuff you are touching and maybe light-levels, so wonder if that could be used too.

I think the only thing persistent in my dreams is the way I make decisions, as in my "logic" is the same one I would use in real life if under the effects of the emotions in the dream. It's a bit warped since it's applied to situations that would never happen, but how I generally act in real life is how I act in my dreams, sometimes infuriatingly so.

This only goes for the way I make decisions though, I don't think any of my daily habits are in my dreams.