Thread: Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I sort of made this point earlier

That you did, and your post is helpful. I didn't see it exactly in that light, but now that you mention it I do. The mention of vigilance feels very relevant to me.

The goal of ADA is a challenging, yet fun endeavor; we are essentially aiming to naturally defy a large part of our "modern" definition of a dream (the lack of self-reflection). Just like the new Voss study, we are trying to 'ramp up' our (frontal) brain activity, though through awareness rather than external stimulation. Even though it can be frustrating, the fun part about lucidity for me is the success that comes from achieving it naturally...I like the idea of grabbing the reigns of my mind.

Which has a stronger effect from ADA: are we increasing awareness just to look for cues, or rather are we increasing our level of waking consciousness to the point where we don't lose as much of it when we dream? It seems to me the second, since no matter how much I can know that gravity only exists in a dream, a non-lucid dream constitutes a lack of self-reflection so I'll never notice. Even if I was aware in the day, the typical 'loss of self-reflection' by decreased frontal cortex activity in dreaming would not allow me to take note. I need that "frontal power" of my brain to self-reflect and make the observation, and as Ctharlhie has pointed out elsewhere, by using the above-mentioned practices we are making physical changes in our brain. So I feel like it is those changes, that come with practice, that allow you to carry that awareness into your dream state. And though it seems like it would take forever for those changes to occur, in my experience I was amazed at how quickly meditation seemed to take its effect on both my waking and dream life.

Originally Posted by sleepingSYNAPSE

Which has a stronger effect from ADA: are we increasing awareness just to look for cues, or rather are we increasing our level of waking consciousness to the point where we don't lose as much of it when we dream? It seems to me the second, since no matter how much I can know that gravity only exists in a dream, a non-lucid dream constitutes a lack of self-reflection so I'll never notice. Even if I was aware in the day, the typical 'loss of self-reflection' by decreased frontal cortex activity in dreaming would not allow me to take note. I need that "frontal power" of my brain to self-reflect and make the observation, and as Ctharlhie has pointed out elsewhere, by using the above-mentioned practices we are making physical changes in our brain. So I feel like it is those changes, that come with practice, that allow you to carry that awareness into your dream state. And though it seems like it would take forever for those changes to occur, in my experience I was amazed at how quickly meditation seemed to take its effect on both my waking and dream life.

I'm not sure that "loss of self-reflection" is quite correct, at least in my dreams I have noticed that what I lose is mindfulness. Basically when you start talking to somebody and then 20 minutes later you "come back to your senses" and realise you've just zoned out for 20 minutes and lost track of what was going on in the outside and the inside world. Same with dreams, I have quite clear recall, often I even recall the very beginning of my dreams all the way to the end, when I wake up it's not that I've realised that "oh that was a dream" but more like "oh crap I got lost in a dream", it is exactly the same feeling as getting lost in thought, at least for me, but I doubt I'm any different from anybody else in that regard.

Next time you wake up from a dream, try to really get the feeling of that dream, not what you did in the dream but what it felt like to be in a dream, the dream experience, I think you might find the same thing; it's a "I have just zoned out" effect, the same one you get while awake when you stop paying attention and just let your mind wander.

I believe dreams have more in common with the notion of daydreaming or being lost in thought than shutting down of brain parts during sleep, or at least they would be the same parts that are affected by not paying attention and wandering off into lala land while awake. So if you can learn to keep from losing yourself during mental wanderings then being lucid wouldn't be any different.

I'm currently working on a specific training methods to not stay mindful all day long per se but rather I have this notion that what is important is to notice when you have lost awareness while it is actually happening, since afterwards it's too late, you've already woken up (in wakefulness or in sleep), I think concentrating on just this would be enough (and it seems to correlate with some high-frequency lucid dreamer's habits of, for example, asking "what was I just doing", which I'm theorising has more to do with them trying not to doze off during the day than anything else, same with those that become natural LDers because of nightmares, they don't want to lose awareness because they're afraid, so they become good at catching themselves in the act of losing themselves), anyway this is a quick theory of mine at the moment, will post more thorough info after I attain results, but if anybody wants more info you can PM me and I'll explain my training routine if you want to try it with me. =]

Originally Posted by Memm

it's a "I have just zoned out" effect

Wow, never really thought of it that way. That sounds very cool, very interesting, and very possible. It also helps in viewing the sleep/wake cycle on a thinner continuum, which of course we as lucid dreamers are all about!

Thanks for the insight and that thought will stay with me.

(BTW I love the analogy)

Originally Posted by Memm

I'm not sure that "loss of self-reflection" is quite correct, at least in my dreams I have noticed that what I lose is mindfulness. Basically when you start talking to somebody and then 20 minutes later you "come back to your senses" and realise you've just zoned out for 20 minutes and lost track of what was going on in the outside and the inside world. Same with dreams, I have quite clear recall, often I even recall the very beginning of my dreams all the way to the end, when I wake up it's not that I've realised that "oh that was a dream" but more like "oh crap I got lost in a dream", it is exactly the same feeling as getting lost in thought, at least for me, but I doubt I'm any different from anybody else in that regard.

Next time you wake up from a dream, try to really get the feeling of that dream, not what you did in the dream but what it felt like to be in a dream, the dream experience, I think you might find the same thing; it's a "I have just zoned out" effect, the same one you get while awake when you stop paying attention and just let your mind wander.

Yes, this. When I experience a dream with vivid awareness, where I really feel like I was there, I will often wake confused, thinking, "wait, that was a dream!?". It is like coming back from a zoned-out moment, as you said.

I believe dreams have more in common with the notion of daydreaming or being lost in thought than shutting down of brain parts during sleep, or at least they would be the same parts that are affected by not paying attention and wandering off into lala land while awake. So if you can learn to keep from losing yourself during mental wanderings then being lucid wouldn't be any different.

I'm currently working on a specific training methods to not stay mindful all day long per se but rather I have this notion that what is important is to notice when you have lost awareness while it is actually happening, since afterwards it's too late, you've already woken up (in wakefulness or in sleep), I think concentrating on just this would be enough (and it seems to correlate with some high-frequency lucid dreamer's habits of, for example, asking "what was I just doing", which I'm theorising has more to do with them trying not to doze off during the day than anything else, same with those that become natural LDers because of nightmares, they don't want to lose awareness because they're afraid, so they become good at catching themselves in the act of losing themselves), anyway this is a quick theory of mine at the moment, will post more thorough info after I attain results, but if anybody wants more info you can PM me and I'll explain my training routine if you want to try it with me. =]

Very well put. I had the idea recently that I need to be aware of my awareness . Since I think of dreaming much of the day, and almost never while dreaming, I just need to realize when I've stopped thinking about dreaming, and that means I'm probably dreaming! Generalizing that, being aware that I'm aware (or, as you say, being aware that I've lost awareness).

Another way of thinking about this is do practice "slowing down." Take a moment, and just stop what you're doing, and just reflect for a moment about what you're doing, what you're thinking. Just a short pause. Doing this frequently enough I think would have a great impact on lucidity.

Two more phenomena lacking in dreams:

Sense of posture
(IRL I try to keep my back straight and my head up)

Sense of balance
(In dreams I perform sort of acrobatic actions and never fear to lose my balance)