Thread: (Prove Me Wrong) No One Has Literally Ever Talked to Their Subconscious. Ever.

Why do you believe the subconscious and you are different beings? You are both one and the same, in many parts but one as a sum.

That doesn't answer anything I've asked, and you clearly didn't read what I wrote.

"You'd think people would jump at the chance to learn everything about themselves, essentially from themselves." The subconscious is your own brain, just a different part of it. I don't know how you concluded I "believed" people and their subconscious minds were two different things.

Good point, I can't recall anyone ever talking about having a conversation with their subconscious mind either. This might sound mean but maybe most people are just kind of selfish and they just want to have fun in their dreams? Maybe they don't care about stuff like that, and only use LDing as a playground and an answering machine.

Originally Posted by Screen

If anything, attempt to communicate with it not for the purposes of personal curiosity, but to learn more about how to properly lucid dream.

That's one of my most important goals when I LD. Ask what method works best for me so I can stop all this trial and error stuff and only do my ideal technique, you know one thing doesn't work for everyone, it's varies on individual. Frankly, I don't understand why more people don't do this. One would think a newbie who managed to maintain a little control over their dreams would take advantage of it and learn what works best for them.

Originally Posted by Screen

Since dreams are nothing more than environments made by your mind

Well, that's what we assume, we don't know that for sure yet, just saying. Humans are not nearly as smart as they like to think they are.

Interesting topic as I too have wondered about it and tried to directly find and speak with my subconscious. From my experience I have had a hard time doing so, maybe there is some kind of defense mechanism to prevent me from doing so, I don't know about others but when I have tried in various occasions I have found that the dream seems to crash and destabilize almost immediately as i tried to call my subconscious even when I had a stable dream.

The most success I have had was when I expected my subconscious to come in through the door to me and lifted my hands towards the door and found it start opening and in comes a clone of myself. As soon as he got near me the dream ended.

What I have been doing instead is communicating with my inner self during the day and before going to sleep and just letting myself know that I am open to hear from it in whatever way it wishes to communicate, whether through dreams, or even in waking life. It is proving helpful, as i feel more in tune with my instincts and sometimes have the feeling that the way something happened was a direct message.

As for improving my lucid dreams, before I go to sleep or when i wake during the night, I ask myself in a kind way to allow me to have a lucid dream that night, not demanding but asking myself as if it's entirely up to my inner self's decision whether I do or not and that I do not wish to take shortcuts and progress with it at the right pace. This has been working for me, I get at least one lucid dream every week and it also depends on how determined I want that lucid dream too, as sometimes i just ask for a lucid dream automatically, but when i have genuine intent i seem to get results.

Now instead of trying to speak with myself in those lucid dreams I go on about the dream and see what any dc may have in store for me rather than having to be my clone dc.

Hope this helped you somehow, just a bit of how I see this now.

The subconscious mind consists of thoughts and feelings that you have no direct access to in waking life.
That's the very reason why people can learn lots of things by talking to their subconscious self - they find out things about themselves that are inaccessible in the waking world.

It's like getting superhuman sight and hearing that allows you to see in ultraviolet and infrared, and hear extremely low and high frequencies - you technically "see" and "hear" them in waking life, but you cannot actually notice them.
It's the same with your subconscious mind - you have no direct access to it in waking life, but in dreams it finally manifests itself in a a way that you can notice it.

Originally Posted by Screen

if we can have some people to try out this method, I only see all the things we have to benefit from doing so, and I'd personally appreciate it a great deal.

Couldn't quite understand - what exactly is the method to try?

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Couldn't quite understand - what exactly is the method to try?

Attempt to contact the subconscious and converse with it. Ask it what exactly it is, how to be a better lucid dreamer, things like that.

Originally Posted by Screen

Since dreams are nothing more than environments made by your mind, and the subconscious is this largely unexplored part of your mind which plays a vital role to the creation of your dreams, doesn't it make sense to try and learn more about your subconscious? It's not like you have to debate whether it exists, and communicating with it is very possible. And yet, there's so little information on it regarding personal experiences in communicating with it.

This is why people keep a dream journal and record the symbols, associations and signs.

Originally Posted by Screen

So, please, if you can prove me wrong, please do. Or if you know a story I managed to miss, please share it. What little stories I found were far from enlightening, and frankly, just plain boring.

I'm not here to prove anybody wrong but there is plenty of inspiration out there.
Check out Ewold, Ewoid, Surrealism, etc...

If you find that 'boring' then...?

Originally Posted by Screen

I not only browsed this site, but also the Internet, and cannot--for the life of me--find one person's account of ever talking to their subconscious. What little I could find, I can condense into a few points.

Maybe it was because the Shaman, the Yogi, Nikola Tesla, Franz Mesmer, Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, Salvador Dalí, etc. etc. never used the Internet?


The Shaman relied on Psychedelic plants to communicate with the ancestors and to bring back knowledge.

The Yogi via meditation in the attempt to reach enlightenment.

Freud and his work as a psychoanalyst, inc. free association, sexual symbolism, repression, libido, ego, etc.

Jung on the collective unconscious, archetypes, extraversion and intraversion, etc.

Red Book

In 1913, at the age of thirty-eight, Jung experienced a horrible "confrontation with the unconscious". He saw visions and heard voices. He worried at times that he was "menaced by a psychosis" or was "doing a schizophrenia". He decided that it was valuable experience and, in private, he induced hallucinations or, in his words, "active imaginations". He recorded everything he felt in small journals. Jung began to transcribe his notes into a large red leather-bound book, on which he worked intermittently for sixteen years.[13]

[13] ^ Jump up to: a b c d Corbett, Sara (16 September 2009). "The Holy Grail of the Unconscious". The New York Times. Retrieved 2009-09-20.


Dalí - The paranoiac-critical method is a surrealist technique developed by Salvador Dalí in the early 1930s. He employed it in the production of paintings and other artworks, especially those that involved optical illusions and other multiple images. (Source: via Wikipedia.)


The subconscious language is symbolic, as in made up of pictures and metaphor. That's how the unconscious 'talks' to us.
We are all prone to using left-brain language methods and descriptions (I.e. words!)
Dreaming (and specifically) lucid dreaming gives us all a chance to interact with our inner-selves which is normally occluded.

TL;DR: I don't think your method is anything 'new.'

Originally Posted by Screen

Attempt to contact the subconscious and converse with it. Ask it what exactly it is, how to be a better lucid dreamer, things like that.

Well, I'm totally for finding ways to be a better lucid dreamer one way or another. It may be a bit difficult to get a straight answer from a DC though, as people who have participated in some of the "ask a DC" totms might have already noticed.

Highlander made a number of excellent points above, which leads me to the the following thoughts and question: We are indeed interacting with the subconscious but just the means of communication are different. Do we necessary have to personalize the subconscious as a DC and ask it direct questions or are there other ways to access it?

Something to think about.

Highlander, I appreciate you trying to share information, but you completely missed my entire point. Using lucid dreaming to converse with the subconscious, to inquire about dreams and the subconscious itself. Symbols are one way it allegedly speaks to us, but it leaves too much room for interpretation and doesn't offer concise, clear answers. With lucid dreaming, that doesn't have to be the only method. None of the people you mentioned did what I specifically asked about. Use lucid dreaming to clearly converse and inquire about the subconscious and dreams. It's obviously nothing new and I don't know why you think I claimed it was. It's the most optimum way I can think of to learn more about lucid dreaming, and despite it's proven possibility, hardly anyone has tried, and fewer have succeeded, but I can't find their experiences. It's probably like mimihigurashi said, people in general don't care about it and have their priorities elsewhere.


Now, as for NyxCC, the solution to your question is simple: change the method. Characters offer too many varied responses. Sometimes they don't know, they have to "think" about it, they offer unclear answers, or they dismiss you altogether. I've seen accounts of people using alternatives methods for gathering information, without using characters. One is a man had a drawer, and when he opened it, there would be a piece of paper with his answers.

You could use a book, receive a text message, watch it as a movie, whatever you choose. I think the only reason using dream characters are so common is because that's the main--and for some people, only--method that's referenced in books, videos, etc. From the experiences I've read, people have had more success using inanimate objects for gathering information than they did with characters. At least with the former, when it generally didn't work, they merely "refreshed" it or tried again and got their answers.

The problem with that idea is that the subconscious doesn't work the same way the conscious mind does. The conscious mind is linear, focused, and thinks in terms of language, but the subconscious is holistic, unfocused, and thinks in images and symbols. When people 'talk to the subconscious' what they're really doing is as someone said above, trying to manifest it as a DC that they can talk to, expecting to get straight answers in simple straightforward terms. But that's like expecting a great poet to explain his deeply symbolic, ambiguous works in straightforward English - or asking somebody to explain a joke. The medium is the message.

You're always communicating with the subconscious, especially when dreaming. It's still running on the backchannel when you're awake, but the conscious is so much 'louder' and in your face so to speak, that it's hard to pick up the subtle quiet stuff going on in the background. Meditation helps with this. Quiet the monkey mind. But I think trying to force it to manifest artificially as a DC and talk to you is a strange and very unlikely approach. It's sort of like trying to talk with a foreigner and angrily demanding that they just talk to you in plain English, making no effort to understand through body language and subtle clues what they're trying earnestly to express. The subconscious is talking to you all the time, you just need to learn to hear it in its native language.

I think the above explanations are more than enough, so I won't be bringing more arguments to support them. Instead, I would like to quote Jung himself, which I think gives a direct answer to the question asked in OP.

About the Red Book, Jung said:

The years… when I pursued the inner images, were the most important time of my life. Everything else is to be derived from this. It began at that time, and the later details hardly matter anymore. My entire life consisted in elaborating what had burst forth from the unconscious and flooded me like an enigmatic stream and threatened to break me. That was the stuff and material for more than only one life. Everything later was merely the outer classification, scientific elaboration, and the integration into life. But the numinous beginning, which contained everything, was then.

So, basically, the entire work of Jung is based on his direct and indirect interaction (verbal and non-verbal) with the subconscious.

Darkmatters, have you actually ever tried what I'm suggesting? You're already assuming it will fail. And what about the other method I mentioned about using inanimate objects as opposed to characters? It would be different if you had some experiences to relate to it, but you're discounting it on the personal idea it sounds unlikely, even though there's still a great deal to learn about it.

Regardless of that, you and NyxCC are still missing my point. I'm not talking about just finding any form of communicating with the subconscious. I already know people have found ways to "talk" to it in the past mostly through imagery or cryptic answers. I'm talking about using lucid dreaming to inquire about the subconscious and lucid dreaming itself. And neither you, NyxCC, or Highlander, made that distinction in your posts.

Not trying to sound mean, for what it's worth. But you're neglecting that key point. Have you used lucid dreaming to inquire about the aforementioned? No, none of you have. And that's the point I'm making. If anyone has, they're not talking.

Ok, since there was no reply, I decided to delete my previous comment, because I think I have indeed missed the key point.

We got carried away arguing about things because we might have different definitions and understanding of how things work. I think there might have been some confusion coming from the title too.

We have looked at your suggestions as we do have a little bit of experience that it's not easy to get a meaningful logical answer in an ld, no matter what kind of question you ask.

Still, the process of exploration and discovery during lds enables each one to actually try and obtain such answers. No matter what the result, it may make for an interesting dream. So, do by all means try to find the answers you are looking for. If someone else decides to give your method a try, then they will post back here.

Most importantly, if you do need any help about ways to get lucid, we can start another thread where people can give you some nice tips. Or I can pm you some links or other info.

Hope this helps!

Originally Posted by Screen

But has anyone ever had a proper conversation with their subconscious? As far as all the accounts I can find, the answer is no.

You and I have a very different view of what the subconscious mind consists of. In my opinion the idea of trying to have a proper conversation with it makes about as much sense as trying to have a conversation with a fire hydrant.

The subconscious mind is just a collection of held out of view mental stuff. Lot's of luck looking for somebody there to have a conversation with because there's nobody home... let alone anyone that knows something about lucid dreaming.

"KNOCK KNOCK"
"Who's there?"
"Subconscious"
"Subconscious who?"
"How would I know? I'm subconscious."

There's nothing stopping us from doing a sock puppet act on the subject and thereby tricking ourselves into seeing some things we've long since pushed out of our own view, but that's about it.

My guess is that you're confusing the subconscious mind with some kind of all-knowing entity or higher power. Whether or not such an entity or being exists, and whether or not we can communicate with same, is another subject altogether.

All this is just my opinion of course, and if your mileage varies, that's okay by me.

I think this is a great idea. One of those things that is so obvious once I see it, that I am kicking myself for not thinking of it on my own. Taking into account the proposition that the subconscious communicates in a completely non-straightforward english method, I have a plan for my next LD:

Step 1: Stabilize it by rubbing my hands together or something
Step 2: Openly ask my subconscious in general to show me the most effective method for communicating with it in order to receive definite, clear responses that can be communicated with others in waking life.
Step 3: Use whatever method that is to ask my subconscious to reveal itself to me, in particular, what I need to know to have more lucid dreams.

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Unfortunately, my track record for lucid dreams is on the order of 12 per year, often all in groups of 3 or 4 at a time, so it may be a while before I report back. But the good news is that they do in fact happen, and it's only a matter of time :-)

If anyone has any ideas or tweaks to this plan, a better plan, or another idea, let us know.

I've talked to my sub-conscious before... I think I just mentioned it in an earlier post. Basically, I kind of wasted my time with it... I asked stupid questions that I already knew the answer to, to make sure he was real. He was... but still no closer to unlocking it...

@ Screen.

I'm sorry if I have missed your point in your posts where it is specific to lucid dreaming. Even so I couldn't discount the pioneering work on research into the subconscious from the last Century, etc; hence my original post.

- I thought that all roads might lead to Rome?

Originally Posted by Screen

Or if you know a story I managed to miss, please share it. What little stories I found were far from enlightening, and frankly, just plain boring. And lastly, if we can have some people to try out this method, I only see all the things we have to benefit from doing so, and I'd personally appreciate it a great deal.

You are quite free to read my dream journal entries. I'm pretty sure you will find examples of me interacting with my subconscious, athough I'm not sure if it relates to your specific model?

I hope I haven't wasted the last 3 years of my life with my stories?

Stories are for tabloid newspapers!


In my eyes having a 'proper' lucid dream is like a dog trying to chase its own tail.
There are difficulties even when you have mastered the basics. The schema is very fluid and challenging for example.

For me accurate recall is of prime importance as it is no good in 'communicating' with your subconscious (however 'way' you do it) if you cannot remember the experience clearly, or in most cases, not at all.


Edit:
Talking to the subconscious reminds me of a José Mourinho press interview...

Well, we're working on it. Lots of us are. Keep reading.

So, I have a question. When asking questions to the subconscious, what do you expect the subconscious to be? Do you want it to manifest as a singular, specific object/character, or are you open to the idea that the entirety of your dreamworld is your manifested subconscious? If the latter, I think there are many examples of what you're looking for, just not in the specific form you want it to be delivered in.

I recently read a book about LDing that talks about testing the limits of self-awareness within the dream. Some of it you may find interesting, other parts maybe not so much. I suggest giving it a read, it's a pretty quick read in my opinion: Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self. I did a quick review below if you want to see if you might be interested:

Spoiler for Book Review:

Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self by Robert Waggoner was my most recent read for this blog. Though I finished it some weeks ago, I’ve neglected to write up my review.

Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed this book. It wasn’t particularly dense, so if you’re not willing to chew through a lot, this is a good pick. I read through it pretty quickly, and was pleased to find that it expanded on my already broad knowledge of lucid dreaming. For the first time I was introduced to the concept of bricoleur or “dream-maker” (a force behind the dream which generates all the little details that you did not specify), which I’m interested in exploring further.

The book is divided into two parts. Part I focuses primarily on the basics of lucid dreaming and quickly works its way into the author’s experiences in testing the limits of LDing. Part II focuses on using LDs as a tool for exploring the self, the psyche, and the limits of our consciousness.

Not only does this book further explore questions that I’ve recently been thinking about myself, it gave me some ideas for interesting LD experiments. For example: when you are lucid, ask the dream what different elements of the dream mean or symbolize. I’ve always had dreams about these crazy personified tornado beings, and I’d love to find out what the hell those are supposed to be.

The second part goes pretty deep into explorations of the consciousness, which I think I’ll have to revisit once I’m able to start lucid dreaming again.

Interesting thread screen. I like what you put on on most threads, even if you come over a bit rude some times. you seem honest and on a hunt for knowledge.

You ask if anyone has had a proper conversation with their subconscious. I have heard this from a million people on here:
I want to LD so that I can talk to my subconscious.
I don't quite understand what they want. I am guessing a DC that has a name tag that says "hello my name is your subconscious" and they will tell them about all the things that they ever need to know. Lol. This seems ridiculous to me. How would me or a part of me know something that I dont?I am the active player in my game of life. I know more than my subconscious. People want this mystical thing inside themselves to let them know "who they are". I know who I am, and it didn't take years of meditating or lucid dreaming to find it out. Everyone has "voices" in their head always hinting at where they should go and things that they should do. Listening to this, I realized that it is just things that I already know being pulled up., and I have it in me to be the next Ghandi or the next Dahmer, depending on what I choose. So it isn't some crazy philosophical answer, but it is the truth. Yes, things like circumstances or hormonal imbalances may lean you one way or the other, but in the end, you are who you choose to be.

What talking to your subconscious is really like:
Every dream character, every dream scene, every universe you are put in is your subconscious talking to you. This may contradict what I said last, lol, but I believe that dreams are a product of our thoughts mixed with our state of mind. So if you want a quick look at your state of mind, check out your non lucids.
Every dream character.
Technically, every dream character is your subconscious, but if you think of it that way 99% of the time, especially in lucids, you will think that your subconscious is mentally challenged. It seems like their are 3 types of dream characters, when lucid you can change things with dream control, but if you are just letting it run or not exercizing power, you will run into.
1) object DCs.
These are no more than parts of the background, but since you became lucid, you wanted to talk to them. They will stare at you. They aren't really meant to be in the foreground. If you look at them a little too much, you might notice a lack of detail. You would get more of an answer from the couch. Note object. Haha.

2) purpose DCs.
This DC was originally in the dream for a purpose. He was planning on saying "Marco!" And that was it. You walk up to him and think I will have a conversation with a DC! you put out your hand for him to shake it and have a conversation.
Me: what do you represent in the dream?
Him: Marco!
maybe he didn't hear you. Or that is his name
Me: Marco, what do you represent?
"Marco": Marco!
His eyes are wide and he is looking at you strange.
"Marco": Marco!
You leave.

After they do their purpose, they may leave or repeat. They may say more or less than this and are actually very similar to object DCs in the first place. Or if you exercise dream control, you might be able to change them into:

3) character dream characters.
You know these. They are just like people. Most of the time they are douches though. They can steal lucidity, stab you in the back or just convince you of something stupid. These are the ones that people call dream guides if they find one that wants to help. They seem to have a full blown personality with a personality of their own.

My phone rings, and I try to answer it, I had been lucid for about 20 minutes already.
Receptionist: those don't work down here.
I try to slide to answer the phone anyways. It is my mother.
Receptionist: look, it is morning already anyways.
I look from the moon base and see the sun rising on the horizon
Receptionist: you should wake up now.
Me: ok
I concentrate on both sets of eyes and open my real ones.

I am now awake in my bed. The clock reads 3 AM... That B.

Now... About them telling you how to LD better.
I would post links, but I am sure that you have seen them everywhere. Lots and lots of people including me have a DC that acts as a guide to the dream world. I wouldn't be able to do much dream control if I hadn't been taught the "walk method" by the old man. This can go as "my subconscious knowing me more than i know myself", expectation, or schema dream control.

So I think that everyone "talks to their subconscious" they just dont realize that it isn't a sentient being. If it is, it gets its "sentience" from you, so it doesn't has all that much to say.

edit: oh crap! I wrote more than the OP
Oh! I am putting up a thread about dream contents tomorrow. Be sure to check it out.

As others have said before - why do you expect, your unconscious knows how to get more lucid dreams?

ColdRusalka: dreams have to be--to an extent--a product of your mind that you're not consciously forming. Until becoming lucid, no one is making an active decision in what occurs in their dream. Even while lucid, they don't consciously create every single detail. I think it's similar to our bodies where some things are conscious like muscle movements, but others are not, like our hearts beating. I don't think dream characters are any more "aware" than a rock on the ground. They just give the impression. They're all just trying to fulfill a role based on our expectations. We expect the sky to be blue and objects stationary, and we expect people to talk, think, and have personalities, but by the end of the day, we know none of it is "real." What the subconscious will manifest as is up to chance. I think it's a matter of what it will be that's easiest to consult. In my case, preferably something like a book. Which sounds much easier to consult than a dream character for information.

StephL: Well, why do you expect it won't? How does it know things like your soul mate, dream job, or just plain how to perform a certain technique better? Somehow it--or whatever we're communicating with if you think the source is external--knows things about ourselves we consciously don't, and the nature of lucid dreaming. To this day, we don't even know why we dream, so there's obviously more to learn. What better place to start?

BrandonBoss: I'm not assuming to know anything about the subconscious, because it's still not a very understood topic. Is it just a library of every tiny detail we don't consciously remember like how many cracks are on a sidewalk? Or does it have a level of knowledge and understanding we've yet to access? Based on people's stories, somehow it knows things that we don't--or at the very least, don't remember as some confirmed--, and if you saw my post about Interviewing the Subconscious, you'll remember that was one of my planned questions. Who/What exactly is it, how is it different from us, etc. Since lucid dreaming allows the exploration of parts of our minds that we're normally cut off from, it invites new opportunities for learning. Now, I know, in a sense, people have "communicated' with the subconscious. But as I clarified earlier: who has used lucid dreaming to inquire about the subconscious itself, and the nature of lucid dreaming? Doing that specifically seems to be one of the best ways to start getting answers. The closest story resembling this that I've read is from a fellow member named kilham. Better to read her experiences for yourself in her posts, but in short, apparently the subconscious (or at least, the DC she talked to) considered itself and the conscious mind (her) a "team," which (in my opinion) is why it was talking in plural tenses. Suffice it to say, no one knows the full extent to what the subconscious mind truly is, or what--if possible--it identifies itself as. It doesn't make sense to me to think of it as a separate entity, but more as an unexplored part of the mind. Scientists are always learning new things about our bodies and the nature of reality that often surprise and shock them. Humans and nature still hold many secrets to discover--like the subconscious mind and dreams--and again, lucid dreaming invites an opportunity of learning we normally wouldn't have before.

But, regardless of all of that, my primary goal--as you may have read in my other posts--is to discover how I can reprogram my subconscious mind through lucid dreaming, and accomplish in a night, which may have taken days with other methods like hypnotism or affirmations. That, at the very least, is very possible and very practical.

Lastly, I wasn't trying to come off as rude to anyone. Remember our first encounter? A misunderstanding from what the other person is trying to say, or how. Honestly, it's why I don't like having many conversations online, because you always encounter this annoyance eventually. To be fair, I know maybe my title might have given a not fully positive impression. I was really just trying to make it more of an attention-grabber, since my previous posts generated little views, and thus, few replies.

This is an interesting topic. I've never focused on this aspect of dreaming. I don't think I've tried talking to my subconscious itself, but I've had people appear in my dreams to give me messages. They felt "outside" of the dream if that makes any sense? For example, there are your regular DCs, and then there are characters that seem so clear to you, like a star shining bright out of the darkness of space. There's something different about them. I had one of those people, (his name was Lucian), tell me "Trust no one but yourself." But then again it might have just been my subconscious projecting something that I have trouble with in real life (trusting people). *shrug*

I'll try focusing on speaking with my subconscious for the next couple days and report if I had any success. Granted, my dreams are always action packed and it's hard to catch a break or have a peaceful moment. As for the people who are "lucky" (which is an arguable term) and don't struggle with remembering their dreams, I suppose I'm one of those. I've done some research and experimentation to try and figure out why I lucid dream every night. Anyways, I believe those who remember their dreams most often have short REM latencies; the amount of time between REM and consciousness. If it takes less time for you to wake up after a REM cycle it makes sense the dream would be fresher in your mind. I clocked myself at falling into REM, dreaming, and waking up under 10 minutes. (It's usually from me pressing the snooze button too much ) You should look up REM latency though if you haven't already. That's the only reason I can think of that would cause lucid dreaming every night.