Thread: Re-exploring the world of non-lucid dreaming

Can we highly trained dreamers choose to relinquish control and somehow get back to true non-lucids?

Do you mean to choose to lose lucidity while you are dreaming?

Yes, I mean can I experience highly vivid dreams with good recall, but not be even semi-lucid. I want to get engrossed in a virtual experience that seems 100% not of my creation. The kind of dream that may reveal deep things about my subconcious mind, yet still have high levels of vividness and recall.

That´s how i feel when i can recall a good vivid nLD, there´s so much information there about my subconscious. Sometimes i wonder what can be more beneficial in terms of mind exploration: a tight, controlled LD or a wild, misterious nLD. I like both, and fortunately i can have them.

I can only suggest that one stops to put any effort towards lucidity and more effort towards sleep and recall ( specially recall of the last dream, so as not to perform an involuntary LD ).

Soo happy, I'm speachless

Yippee eeeee!!!



I'm beside MySelf

NonLucids Rock

Interesting thread idea, Sivason! I'm looking forward to seeing what direction it takes.

As a matter of fact, I spent some time attempting to release or avoid semi-lucidity a while back, but didn't make any headway. It seems that this subtle awareness that I am dreaming is simply too ingrained to do much about. Overall I see that as a good thing, because it implies that I've formed a sort of bond with my unconscious, one in which we're always connected -- or at least the lines of communication are always slightly open. This sense has also helped during higher-level lucids too, because it seems to make it a little easier to view the dream from a much-desired non-dual perspective. Indeed, that perspective carries over nicely into waking life, too, so I guess I'm not complaining.

However, this self-inflicted "condition" has been annoying at times, like when I'm in a particularly vivid or adventurous dream that would be so much better if, say, I could know, just for a moment, that the magical car I'm flying through the Grand Canyon is real, and that my high-speed maneuvers are truly dangerous. That the built-in novelty of NLD's is generally missing (more in a sec) is troubling, I think on balance I'm content with the constant semi-lucidity.

Did I say constant, and always? Not quite: I must mention that I do have three (very) rarely recurring exceptions to this rule: when my NLD's include family, my former workplace or the commute to it, or "going back to school." I have no idea why, but whenever I dream about this stuff I haven't a trace of lucidity (I also cannot form dreams in any of these three subjects when lucid, BTW). I've wondered if, because I rarely see my family these days, left work a decade ago, and school three decades ago, if there's not some part of my brain that clings to the past, and takes me there occasionally, in the context of my state of mind then rather than now. Or it's just some mental condition, I suppose...

Regardless of my experience, though, I do find NLD's quite valuable, and many of my most interesting times in The Dreaming were non-lucid (or at least close to it). Sometimes the reality of a dreamscape is just more real when your disbelief can be fully suspended by non-lucidity. Sometimes, even, I will choose to abandon self-awareness just to enjoy the stuff my dreaming mind has to offer all by itself.

Though I'm very bad at convincing my brain ahead of time to do anything (I'm a "here & now" sort of soul, and things like autosuggestion have never worked for me), you've inspired me to have another look at this; thanks!

Haha, well, I'll call you all in a few decades and after a few thousand long, vivid, stable LDs (if I make it there) to ask how it's going and maybe join you then . For right now at the beginning I have my fill of NDs and want LDs. I absolutely do value my NDs, they're usually kind of bizarre and wild/wacky, fun and funny, and sometimes touching/emotional.

I can sympathize with this condition, though. Absolute control of a dream is sort of like in the Dune books, absolute prediction of the future is not a gift, it is rather a curse that results in a life where nothing is ever new, no experience ever delights or surprises again because the prescient person knows about it before it happens.

I have a suggestion, or two actually. If you already are lucid, and in good standing with whatever generates dreams in your mind, then you might be successful if asking the "dream maker" to create a non-lucid dream for you. If it is mighty enough, it should be able to knock you unconscious from the inside.

You might, alternatively, be able to convince it to generate a dream, "which it feels is important to you at the present time" (or something similar), and thereby obtain the valuable interaction you seem to be seeking.

Well from what I have experienced in the few lucids I have had, not everything is in my control. I can control my body and maybe some other things. I can make a conscious effort to change or create anything but if I don't, it is generated subconsciously. But non-lucids can be awesome too.

I had pretty good success last night! Not there yet, but I am loosening my control and letting the dream take its course. 30 minutes or so of adventure with high recall and good vividness, but on 4 tiny flashes of semi-lucidity. Here it is, non(ish) lucid Long Buffy and the End - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

A Wonderful Success!!!!

WoooHoooo!!! More than I could have asked for, and after only about 1 week of trying!!!

Here it is, Non-lucid psychic contact Very awesome!!! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Please check it out. I think it turned out very interesting.

Congratulations on the breakthrough! The suggestion of a psychic link between the two of you is really fascinating.

Also, thanks for sharing the suggestion of how to tell someone else - apparently not involved with lucid dreaming - that you had a psychic/precognitive/warning dream about them.

Wow. I just had another and it creeps me out! I am getting what I asked for, but have become spoiled by never having bad dreams. I kind of forgot how horrible bad dreams are! I still think it is somehow a valuable experiment. Read this next part and tell me if there is something I can get out of this, other than chills...

"""12/04/13 I really did have a fully non-lucid and was shocked. I have really had basically no bad dreams in years, due to always being semi-lucid. This was very uncomfortable. I am in a house and my sister is telling my wife about things that make me so angry. The things she is talking about did happen to my father and his sister, but in the dream they happened to us, and I want it kept a secret. My father had kept it secret his whole life, and his sister just recently told my sister the details. I got so angry that I told my sister I would beat her up if she were a man. My wife said what happened to me as a child did not in any way hurt how she felt about me. I grabbed the sprayer on the sink and sprayed it full into my sisters face, but even then she kept talking about it.

Well, I asked for some truly vivid fully non-lucids, so I guess I got that. I am not used to this, and it makes me cringe a little. I am not sure what to make out of it."""

I love my non-lucid dreams. They give me a second chance to deal with problems that I am simply not dealing with in my daily life. I believe that they are very useful and sometimes necessary for maintaining a balanced mind. Especially nightmares, when I am truly terrified of something or just upset by something in my dreams, I find that I can discover a lot more about myself. About the things that are too close for me to see normally. It's sort of like being forced to confront them, so I think it's a great idea to try to regain the non-lucid dreams more.

Yet I also find that some of the most healing dreams are nightmares in which I am somewhat aware, so that I can turn lucid and confront the source of my disturbance, charge headfirst into the problem and resolve it. While being non-lucid is great for realizing what some of your latent problems are, I believe that being lucid during a nightmare and not running from it is a great way to resolve some of these problems.

Por ejemplo, I used to have nightmares all the time of zombies trying to bite me and turn me into one of them. I realized upon waking up that it was a reflection of my own troubles with being attacked and ridiculed for being different than other people. I eventually had a dream in which I was aware during a zombie dream and I let them bite me, and I turned into one of them - No more fear, never had a zombie dream since.

But this led to another dream in which I was running down a desert highway, racing with other people my age. All along the sides of the road were snakes that would bite us as we ran along. This venom did not kill us, it turned us into snakes. As I noticed my competition turning into snakes, and I noticed that I too was turning into a snake, I stopped running and walked into a cave that was in a cliffside. There was an old sage in there that gave me a remedy to the poison. He taught me that I don't have to turn into a snake to become immune to other peoples' attacks, but that I only need to learn to love them and to love myself.

As for your dream on 12/04/13, I can't specifically interpret your dream because it has a meaning that is specific to you. But if I had that dream, I would interpret it as my own shame and embarrassment about something that happened with my father. And how I really didn't want anybody to know because I would feel as though it would reflect upon me, as being his son. Especially it would show me how much I am trying to keep this thing bottled up, but there is a part of me that really wants to get it out because it is eating me up inside, not being able to share this trauma with the people that I love the most. But I feel as though I can't tell anybody because I don't want it to hurt how they feel about my father. It's a very difficult situation with no easy answers, I hope you the best in resolving it

edit: Also, I think another option is channeling your unconscious mind. I don't know if you have any experience with this, but it's basically connecting your conscious mind with this other aspect of yourself (it sounds like, from your posts that you are always connected) and then just stepping aside and letting this other part of you speak.

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

I love my non-lucid dreams. They give me a second chance to deal with problems that I am simply not dealing with in my daily life. I believe that they are very useful and sometimes necessary for maintaining a balanced mind. Especially nightmares, when I am truly terrified of something or just upset by something in my dreams, I find that I can discover a lot more about myself. About the things that are too close for me to see normally. It's sort of like being forced to confront them, so I think it's a great idea to try to regain the non-lucid dreams more.

Yet I also find that some of the most healing dreams are nightmares in which I am somewhat aware, so that I can turn lucid and confront the source of my disturbance, charge headfirst into the problem and resolve it. While being non-lucid is great for realizing what some of your latent problems are, I believe that being lucid during a nightmare and not running from it is a great way to resolve some of these problems.

Por ejemplo, I used to have nightmares all the time of zombies trying to bite me and turn me into one of them. I realized upon waking up that it was a reflection of my own troubles with being attacked and ridiculed for being different than other people. I eventually had a dream in which I was aware during a zombie dream and I let them bite me, and I turned into one of them - No more fear, never had a zombie dream since.

But this led to another dream in which I was running down a desert highway, racing with other people my age. All along the sides of the road were snakes that would bite us as we ran along. This venom did not kill us, it turned us into snakes. As I noticed my competition turning into snakes, and I noticed that I too was turning into a snake, I stopped running and walked into a cave that was in a cliffside. There was an old sage in there that gave me a remedy to the poison. He taught me that I don't have to turn into a snake to become immune to other peoples' attacks, but that I only need to learn to love them and to love myself.

As for your dream on 12/04/13, I can't specifically interpret your dream because it has a meaning that is specific to you. But if I had that dream, I would interpret it as my own shame and embarrassment about something that happened with my father. And how I really didn't want anybody to know because I would feel as though it would reflect upon me, as being his son. Especially it would show me how much I am trying to keep this thing bottled up, but there is a part of me that really wants to get it out because it is eating me up inside, not being able to share this trauma with the people that I love the most. But I feel as though I can't tell anybody because I don't want it to hurt how they feel about my father. It's a very difficult situation with no easy answers, I hope you the best in resolving it

edit: Also, I think another option is channeling your unconscious mind. I don't know if you have any experience with this, but it's basically connecting your conscious mind with this other aspect of yourself (it sounds like, from your posts that you are always connected) and then just stepping aside and letting this other part of you speak.

That sounds very reasonable. I think you may be reading correctly. It involved child abuse and I think I just put it aside without dealing with the concept. I guess sort of a "nothing I do now will change it, so why think about it." It seems some part of me has some anger to get out.

Originally Posted by sivason

Wow. I just had another and it creeps me out! I am getting what I asked for, but have become spoiled by never having bad dreams. I kind of forgot how horrible bad dreams are! I still think it is somehow a valuable experiment. Read this next part and tell me if there is something I can get out of this, other than chills...

"""12/04/13 I really did have a fully non-lucid and was shocked. I have really had basically no bad dreams in years, due to always being semi-lucid. This was very uncomfortable. I am in a house and my sister is telling my wife about things that make me so angry. The things she is talking about did happen to my father and his sister, but in the dream they happened to us, and I want it kept a secret. My father had kept it secret his whole life, and his sister just recently told my sister the details. I got so angry that I told my sister I would beat her up if she were a man. My wife said what happened to me as a child did not in any way hurt how she felt about me. I grabbed the sprayer on the sink and sprayed it full into my sisters face, but even then she kept talking about it.

Well, I asked for some truly vivid fully non-lucids, so I guess I got that. I am not used to this, and it makes me cringe a little. I am not sure what to make out of it."""

It almost sounds like you may be hiding or keeping certain information about yourself, from yourself. Something I have had to become extremely careful with is the term "secret." I honestly believe (whether its waking or dreaming) having secrets will be one of your biggest down falls. If you have a secret of any kind, it will end up being used against you. Don't hold secrets, don't keep them, don't hid anything from yourself or others.

As for the path you have taken with dreaming, this is what I did after I began understanding LDing. It is the perfect way to dig into what you really desire/fear, I became a complete observer within my dreams. If you become semi-lucid during these events, it is completely fine, you can actually dig in deeper to the meaning of the dream. Instead of doing reality checks, stabilizing and controlling the dream, you can start to ask yourself questions about the dream, or basically guide yourself through what is happening. To me, they become almost like out of body experiences. I exercise control, but only to the point of navigating the maze/ trap/information/etc. Literally ask yourself (within the dream) what the dream means and why certain things are happening. Or look for signs (similar to dream signs) as to why or what is really on your mind. Observe the environment to see if there is anything left as clues or hints. Is anything out of place? things missing? maybe the tree's talk, etc.. There will always be something out of place in a dream, but the key is to observe it, and then understand what it is actually telling you.

Hi,

I too am extremely interested in this tread as for the last couple of years I have been experimenting with exactly the same thing. I too have been trying to find something new to experience and have been experimenting with inducing non-lucid dreams. I have always been able to fully control all of my dreams and have always realised I was dreaming including being able to wake myself up, repeating dreams I enjoy and expanding a dream plot on over several different periods of sleep. To try and induce non-lucid dreams I initially attempted to convince myself in my dream that this is not a dream with no success, in fact all it ever really did was wake me up because i was getting frustrated in my dreams. Then I decided to take another approach. I adopted a very strict bedtime ritual and introduced relaxation methods prior to falling asleep (takes me about 30-45 mins to fall to sleep) and then whilst dreaming I further kept consciously inducing relaxation in my mind in order to allow myself to get relaxed enough to let my subconscious mind fill my dreams with the content and plot etc rather than me consciously manipulating them. This has been very successful and I can now experience dreams that I do not manipulate or create and still be aware that I am dreaming and that my body is fast asleep lol. It doesn't always happen and sometimes I experience unwanted thoughts or nightmares so I manipulate them or just wake myself up but generally speaking I feel this method works for me. I am actually very new to this site and joined to hear about peoples experiences and opinions in order to further my little experiment so I can one day have a dream where I have absolutely no idea I am dreaming. I am sorry if this doesn't completely make sense or I use the wrong terminology but this is my first attempt at describing what I experience in dreams.

Thank you

^^ That is very interesting, Laniburger, mostly because your "final" approach is very similar to mine, as I try to allow my dreaming mind its moment of reality, regardless of my own knowledge of its non-reality -- damn, that sounded a lot better in my head.

I find it very hard to discuss how to "lucidly" experience a dream without being lucid, especially without wandering into eye-bleeding terms like non-dualism... I'm glad you did it for me! Oh, and welcome to DV's, BTW!

I'm not sure if this would be any help to you, Sivason, but I think Laniburger makes a good point: Just like so many of us wander through waking life without one wit of self-awareness, perhaps you can experience dreams in a non-lucid way even while being aware that you are in a dream. In a sense, you need only stop paying attention during the dream, and let your dreaming mind have its way with you -- given enough leeway, the reality your dreaming mind would create would be unavoidable.

Of course, none of this will get you to a non-lucid dreaming point of "perfect surprise" that comes with knowing that the place you are in is real -- even though it is just a dream. So why the hell did I just write all of this? Oh, well, it's there now...

Welcome, BTW!

Hey Sivason, I know this thread is getting a bit old, but I thought I'd tell you about my experience with this.

I have been inducing lucid dreams for 7+ years... not quite decades like you and Sageous, but I have been pretty diligent with my incubation practices at various times throughout the years.
A couple of years ago, I was at the point where all of my dreams were at least semi-lucid. I wondered if I missed a lot of lucid opportunities because it was just so normal to know that I was dreaming, so there often wasn't a 'moment of realisation' that would lead me to take control of the dream. I would often have thoughts like, "Oh, I must remember to tell my housemate about this dream," while still just going along with the storyline and not becoming 'fully' lucid.

In 2011, I began working on pre-production for a lucid dreaming documentary that I'm directing. It requires a lot of research and trials, comparing various induction techniques and weighing up the suitability of each technique for different lifestyles. I wanted to explore both natural induction methods, and external aids such as electronic devices, supplements and herbs. I had never used any external aids at the time (I had no need), but I wanted to try them myself to gain a better understanding of how they worked before designing the formal studies. For the trials, I will be recruiting people who have no prior experience with lucid dream induction. I realised that, to get a more accurate idea of the effect of the supplements, I would have to attempt to wipe out my natural dream recognition.

I began my reversal process by making a rule that I would not actively participate in any daytime activities that would strengthen the neural pathways associated with dream recognition. That meant not reading, writing, or talking about dreams/lucidity, and not doing reality checks or practising awareness with dreaming in mind. I also stopped keeping a dream journal and stopped my morning recall practices.
It didn't take long before I started to have less lucid, and completely non-lucid dreams, but I still had residual awareness and occasional DILDs for about 6 months after that. By that point, I was rarely even remembering my dreams, and the ones I did remember were consistently non-lucid, so I was satisfied that I could begin to trial the supplements and get closer results to that of a novice.

In your situation, it sounds like you're not wanting to cut out lucid dreams entirely, but just have the occasional non-lucid dream where you can be completely absorbed and convinced of the fantastical elements and virtual reality. Based on my experience, perhaps if you chose to have a break for a week for example, where you didn't actively engage in any form of dream incubation, you might find that you have a few fully non-lucid dreams, and then you can return to your regular practices.

How have you been going with this? Did you decide it was still something you wanted to pursue?

Originally Posted by ~ Dreamer ~

Hey Sivason, I know this thread is getting a bit old, but I thought I'd tell you about my experience with this.

I have been inducing lucid dreams for 7+ years... not quite decades like you and Sageous, but I have been pretty diligent with my incubation practices at various times throughout the years.
A couple of years ago, I was at the point where all of my dreams were at least semi-lucid. I wondered if I missed a lot of lucid opportunities because it was just so normal to know that I was dreaming, so there often wasn't a 'moment of realisation' that would lead me to take control of the dream. I would often have thoughts like, "Oh, I must remember to tell my housemate about this dream," while still just going along with the storyline and not becoming 'fully' lucid.

In 2011, I began working on pre-production for a lucid dreaming documentary that I'm directing. It requires a lot of research and trials, comparing various induction techniques and weighing up the suitability of each technique for different lifestyles. I wanted to explore both natural induction methods, and external aids such as electronic devices, supplements and herbs. I had never used any external aids at the time (I had no need), but I wanted to try them myself to gain a better understanding of how they worked before designing the formal studies. For the trials, I will be recruiting people who have no prior experience with lucid dream induction. I realised that, to get a more accurate idea of the effect of the supplements, I would have to attempt to wipe out my natural dream recognition.

I began my reversal process by making a rule that I would not actively participate in any daytime activities that would strengthen the neural pathways associated with dream recognition. That meant not reading, writing, or talking about dreams/lucidity, and not doing reality checks or practising awareness with dreaming in mind. I also stopped keeping a dream journal and stopped my morning recall practices.
It didn't take long before I started to have less lucid, and completely non-lucid dreams, but I still had residual awareness and occasional DILDs for about 6 months after that. By that point, I was rarely even remembering my dreams, and the ones I did remember were consistently non-lucid, so I was satisfied that I could begin to trial the supplements and get closer results to that of a novice.

In your situation, it sounds like you're not wanting to cut out lucid dreams entirely, but just have the occasional non-lucid dream where you can be completely absorbed and convinced of the fantastical elements and virtual reality. Based on my experience, perhaps if you chose to have a break for a week for example, where you didn't actively engage in any form of dream incubation, you might find that you have a few fully non-lucid dreams, and then you can return to your regular practices.

How have you been going with this? Did you decide it was still something you wanted to pursue?

I got distracted from the whole dream realm due to a house fire and other issues. I fell back into semi-lucidity with perhaps 5 LDs aweek happening by chance which I rarely bothered to stabilize. I have reached a point where dreaming is again attracting my attention, but I kind of forgot about this project. I think for now I am going to involve myself with some high level LD training. I am thinking of standard stuff like chnaging day to night, make it rain, make it snow, and so on, until I have refreshed every standard task. I am feeling ready to dive back into the astral realm, but want to be at the top of my game first. I may come back to this project eventually. It did provide some interesting results.

Originally Posted by sivason

I got distracted from the whole dream realm due to a house fire and other issues. I fell back into semi-lucidity with perhaps 5 LDs aweek happening by chance which I rarely bothered to stabilize. I have reached a point where dreaming is again attracting my attention, but I kind of forgot about this project. I think for now I am going to involve myself with some high level LD training. I am thinking of standard stuff like chnaging day to night, make it rain, make it snow, and so on, until I have refreshed every standard task. I am feeling ready to dive back into the astral realm, but want to be at the top of my game first. I may come back to this project eventually. It did provide some interesting results.

I am in the same boat of re-exploring the world of lucid dreaming. It almost feels like I'm starting from scratch after a couple of years avoiding incubation completely - my LD frequency and level of control could both do with a lot of improvement!
I'm planning to work through the DVA courses to jog my memory and inspire me to put in the time/effort required. Are you still running your dream yoga class?

Gosh, sorry to hear about your house! I hope things are looking up for you now.
I look forward to following your progress.

I am still teaching the class. It may be hard at first how the lessons relate, but they teach extreme mental skills. The stuff is very usefull, but takes perhaps years. You are welcome to participate.

I am striving to have dreams were I can not only see the worlds created by my subconscious but were I can meet them. And by meet I mean, me, my lucid self being able to realize their true beauty as I experience them, not as I remember them after I wake up. I want both my conscious and subconscious to be present in my dreams.

I may not be very experienced with LDs and thanks to my poor dream control I never had a LD doesn´t feel created by the subconscious. But do I a high level of lucidity and the surprising elements of an unfamiliar dream really have to contradict each other? Why shouldn´t there be a middle path between lucid and non-lucid?

I don´t want to devalue non-LDs. My best non-LDs have been far more fascinating than my best LDs. But diminishing your hard earned lucidity skills just to have non-LDs back. Is that really necessary? Can´t you just let the dream take control of itself again? Or am I just getting the wrong idea of your goals?

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That is very interesting, Laniburger, mostly because your "final" approach is very similar to mine, as I try to allow my dreaming mind its moment of reality, regardless of my own knowledge of its non-reality -- damn, that sounded a lot better in my head.

I find it very hard to discuss how to "lucidly" experience a dream without being lucid, especially without wandering into eye-bleeding terms like non-dualism... I'm glad you did it for me! Oh, and welcome to DV's, BTW!

I'm not sure if this would be any help to you, Sivason, but I think Laniburger makes a good point: Just like so many of us wander through waking life without one wit of self-awareness, perhaps you can experience dreams in a non-lucid way even while being aware that you are in a dream. In a sense, you need only stop paying attention during the dream, and let your dreaming mind have its way with you -- given enough leeway, the reality your dreaming mind would create would be unavoidable.

Of course, none of this will get you to a non-lucid dreaming point of "perfect surprise" that comes with knowing that the place you are in is real -- even though it is just a dream. So why the hell did I just write all of this? Oh, well, it's there now...

Welcome, BTW!

I realize this is an old one, but I remember reading a dream of Liz Levitan's (one of Stephen LaBerge's associates) where she consciously chose to "relinquish a bit of control" because she could not remember why she was in a particular dreamscape. After relaxing a bit, the dream began to "take over" again and she remembered the original dream plot. She then (I suppose) roused herself back to full lucidity.

Is this even in the same realm of what you guys are talking about? I don't have that kind of control yet--that seems like a very slippery slope to me, where eventually I would simply lose lucidity and begin "id-ing" it up. Awesome thread, btw. Very thought provoking.

^^ Actually, I think it might be the opposite of what we were talking about. It seems that Levitan was trying to increase lucidity, or control, by stepping back momentarily and letting her dream do the heavy lifting for her, thus giving her a chance to relax and reset her focus and memory; once those were reset, she was able to restore her lucidity.

What we are talking about here are ways to set aside lucidity -- or at least that almost subliminal knowledge that "this is a dream" that seems to accompany folks who have been LD'ing for a very long time -- so that we can experience NLD's as they were meant to be experienced.

So Levitan might have been stepping away from lucidity for a moment, but I think it was it was to a different purpose. Still, the idea of relinquishing control to the dream might be a good one in this context as well, because we would be elevating the importance of the dream, and maybe forgetting our selves in the process.