Thread: Limits????

I heard there are limits to what you can do in the dream world, for instance you can't turn off a light, or you can't read a book, or tell the time consistantly. Is there any truth in this and if there is truth, are there any other limits.


Also, I stopped recording my dreams a while back and now I cannot remember any of them, is there a faster way to get them back and start remembering them then training myself all over again?


Also, I noticed that some ppl here have a rating of ,like lucid master, ect.. how do you get that?

Peace

You can change your rating in your profile. I find that alot of people find those limits, but you can defy them and become limitless with a bit of work at control. I know I can. To regain your recall without having to work with dream journals all over again, you'd probably have to work with some self-hypnosis, like in my HILD method in the tutorials section. Just replace the suggestions for LDing with suggestions to enhance dream recall. Another quick trick is to write on a peice of paper near your bed, "I will remember all of my dreams tonight." Hope that helps.

Originally posted by Lucid_im_home
I heard there are limits to what you can do in the dream world, for instance you can't turn off a light, or you can't read a book, or tell the time consistantly. Is there any truth in this and if there is truth, are there any other limits.


Also, I stopped recording my dreams a while back and now I cannot remember any of them, is there a faster way to get them back and start remembering them then training myself all over again?


Peace

Your first question is just the limit of your imagination.
If you can wake in the morning stay up for an hour and go back to sleep for a few hours you may start to remember dreams.

Like dreamtamer said, I believe the limits are inposed by each person's ability to control his or her own dream. It would probably be a lot easier to make the light turn on by focusing on that, instead of expecting the light to turn on simply because you flipped the switch.

In one of my first lucid dreams, I was in a room surrounded by glass windows instead of walls. It was a huge party and the building was by the beach. I thought it would look a lot nicer if it was sunny instead of night time... so I put myself into it (even moved my arms as if I was pulling the sun from below the horizon), and surely enough the sun started coming up giving in light to the entire room. I was (and still am) a lucid beginner. Thus, if I was able to move the sun back then, I'm sure its possible to turn on the light of you concentrate on it.

As for your question about dream recall, I currently have the same problem. Half a year ago, I recalled an average of one or two dreams per night. Nowadays its much worse (partly because of the ganja I believe). I'm starting back with my dream journals, and today is the second day without mary jane. I will let you know if my recall gets back to normal with the dream journals, but it may simply be because of the THC absence. (I plan on staying off for sometime).

Originally posted by Lucid_im_home
I heard there are limits to what you can do in the dream world, for instance you can't turn off a light, or you can't read a book, or tell the time consistantly. Is there any truth in this and if there is truth, are there any other limits.


Also, I stopped recording my dreams a while back and now I cannot remember any of them, is there a faster way to get them back and start remembering them then training myself all over again?


Also, I noticed that some ppl here have a rating of ,like lucid master, ect.. how do you get that?

Peace

They say everything is both a blessing and a curse. You think it is not a good thing that Dreaming should have limits. But it is. If Dreams have no limits, it means they are unreal -- that they have no substance, no connection, no truth. Having Limits shows that they are connected, and that subjectivity is ultimately objective.

Yes, some of the people here brag about having broken through all limits. But notice they do not go into very much detail. They are right about having broken things. The only way they were able to destroy the limits of Dreaming was by breaking the connection to the Higher Mind, by cutting themselves off from the Collective Consciousness. That is why they cannot go into much detail. Their dreams have become vapid -- like bad animation. You know how they say that we only use 10% of our Brains, but that our subconscious takes up the other 90%. Well, when somebody has assaulted their Dreaming mind with control attack after attack, and finally has destroyed the Dreaming Mind's ability to maintain any integrity of Dream Content, then what in effect happens is that the 90% of the brain simply goes off and minds its own business. These Dreamers who have Total Control can be compared to masterbaters. Yes, they have complete control. But not over very much.

Dreaming is only important if the Connection to a Higher Realm is maintained. Lucidity is intended only as a remedial practice -- if the Dreaming Self is stuck at some lower level, then Lucidity can bring some Waking Conscious insight in to bear upon whatever the problem is. But Lucidity is a tool like Fire is a tool, or a weapon -- a means to destroy in extreme what can be helped only by intelligent measure.

The problem of Over Control follows throughout Lucid Culture. Original Anthropological research into Dreaming Cultures had hypothesized Control, but ran off before their research was complete. If they had stayed in the Field, they would have found that over-control is a pathology, a dysfunction. But Lucid Culture had formed around the premise of Total Control. The Delusions of Lucifer. Lucid Culture needs to forget the foolishness of its youth and go back to research and discover that the value of Dreaming recides in fostering its Integrity, and not by destroying it with a total Control that despises a Higher Wisdom for the sake of parlor tricks -- pulling dream rabbits out of dream hats for the sake of bragging about it.

Wow. Smack down. A bit pragmatic, but poignant.

I agree with most of what you say, but as a matter of self-fulfilment, don't you think that challenging one's ability to control dream elements, even to the extremes, can be a positive exercise in mentation and creativity? And by sharing these experiences with others, couldn't it encourage them to try for themselves, find out what they're capable of, and learn to ask their own questions about the limits of the mind? The only way to push the envelope is to shoot for the stars. Sure, maybe it's still a pursuit of spiritual onanism, but at least it's social!

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

They say everything is both a blessing and a curse. You think it is not a good thing that Dreaming should have limits. But it is. If Dreams have no limits, it means they are unreal -- that they have no substance, no connection, no truth. Having Limits shows that they are connected, and that subjectivity is ultimately objective.[/b]

I'm sorry, but something just doesn't sound right on that paragraph. What are these limits that you say are good for connection, substance and truth? Reading and turning on the lights as Lucid_im_home suggested? If so, what is so substantial about not being able to read in your dream? Does being able to fly - but not turn on the lights - really make dreams much more substantial?

If there are limits that would maintain the integrity and truth of dreams, not being able to fly and conjure up things would do a much better job at keeping the truth as you say it.

Originally posted by Leo Volont@
Yes, some of the people here brag about having broken through all limits. But notice they do not go into very much detail. They are right about having broken things. The only way they were able to destroy the limits of Dreaming was by breaking the connection to the Higher Mind, by cutting themselves off from the Collective Consciousness. That is why they cannot go into much detail. Their dreams have become vapid -- like bad animation. You know how they say that we only use 10% of our Brains, but that our subconscious takes up the other 90%. Well, when somebody has assaulted their Dreaming mind with control attack after attack, and finally has destroyed the Dreaming Mind's ability to maintain any integrity of Dream Content, then what in effect happens is that the 90% of the brain simply goes off and minds its own business. These Dreamers who have Total Control can be compared to masterbaters. Yes, they have complete control. But not over very much.

I have yet to meet anyone in this forum who claims to have complete control. I am positive to say that even Seeker has been surprised by his dreamworld when trying to accomplish something. As for those members in here who are able to break the barriers to read in dreams, tell time, or turn on the light switch, how about you ask them how vivid and detailed their dreams really are, instead of assuming something? I don't claim to have broken barriers, but I do claim to have moved the sun in one of my dreams which seems to you is one of those important barriers. Sometimes I list few details not for lack of vividness, but because there are parts of my dream which are redundant to write about. I'm not a fan of boring others with 500 words on how I positioned my arms to move the sun, simply because my dream was extremelly vivid. If my dream vividness or recall gets worse, its not because I'm moving suns or turning lights. Its simply because I need to work on my dream recall (write journals), or vividness (pay extra attention to objects during my waking state), or simply quit the ganja (3rd day thus far and counting).

As for the whole 90% of the brain not being used, you should probably check your sources. I recall of a thread about this very myth you talk about.

*searches for thread*

ahh, here you go... to sum it up,

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
The myth that humans only use 10% of their brain arises from this fact:

If you calculate all the possible neural connections that our brain is capable of making (ie. each single neuron connecting to every other single neuron in every possible way) we only actually have about 10-15% of those connections actually taking place. This is mostly for the purpose of efficiency and cognitive maintenance and the fact that we just don't need all of those connections.

Take an Intro Psych course, this isn't very complicated stuff.

here is the full thread, which contains more links to other threads about this belief.
http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....t=brain+percent

Originally posted by Lucid_im_home+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lucid_im_home)</div>

I heard there are limits to what you can do in the dream world, for instance you can't turn off a light, or you can't read a book, or tell the time consistantly. Is there any truth in this and if there is truth, are there any other limits...[/b]

I try not to look at them as limits, but look at them like there just things you can't do, or in a more positive way as dream signs . This is what they talk about in a part of the movie Waking Life, after he talks to the guy he jokes about turning a light on and off to see if he's dreaming and he really is. Well i think you've all seen it.

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont

Yes, some of the people here brag about having broken through all limits. But notice they do not go into very much detail. They are right about having broken things. The only way they were able to destroy the limits of Dreaming was by breaking the connection to the Higher Mind, by cutting themselves off from the Collective Consciousness. That is why they cannot go into much detail. Their dreams have become vapid -- like bad animation. You know how they say that we only use 10% of our Brains, but that our subconscious takes up the other 90%. Well, when somebody has assaulted their Dreaming mind with control attack after attack, and finally has destroyed the Dreaming Mind's ability to maintain any integrity of Dream Content, then what in effect happens is that the 90% of the brain simply goes off and minds its own business. These Dreamers who have Total Control can be compared to masterbaters. Yes, they have complete control. But not over very much...

Thats seems like something I wouldn't do, but im not really sure about it.

Originally posted by tyrantt23

I have yet to meet anyone in this forum who claims to have complete control. I am positive to say that even Seeker has been surprised by his dreamworld when trying to accomplish something. As for those members in here who are able to break the barriers to read in dreams, tell time, or turn on the light switch, how about you ask them how vivid and detailed their dreams really are, instead of assuming something? I don't claim to have broken barriers, but I do claim to have moved the sun in one of my dreams which seems to you is one of those important barriers. Sometimes I list few details not for lack of vividness, but because there are parts of my dream which are redundant to write about. I'm not a fan of boring others with 500 words on how I positioned my arms to move the sun, simply because my dream was extremelly vivid. If my dream vividness or recall gets worse, its not because I'm moving suns or turning lights. Its simply because I need to work on my dream recall (write journals), or vividness (pay extra attention to objects during my waking state), or simply quit the ganja (3rd day thus far and counting).

I do control them(& I can have complete control if I feel like it), as I can enhance VG difficulty, change the scenery, & more, but I usually just play VGs, b/c I feel like doing that the majority of the time. At times, I have been able to tell the time, usually close to when I need to awaken, but reading real time books & clocks?! That cannot be done through an ordinary LD. I am able to do that, but I do know that they are not ordinary LDs at all, b/c I am more aware than in a regular LD!

Let me clear up what my definition of complete control is in a dream; every time that you have a lucid dream you should:

do whatever you want
whenever you want
only wake up when you want
never have an unexpected incident in your dream (i.e. you try to summon someone of the opposite sex, but instead, a swarm of people of the same sex come running after you)
never lose lucidity

By those definitions, I believe its not possible to have complete control, and that is what I was trying to explain to Leo Volont.

As for reading/telling time, I meant in the dream-world. I think its very neat for anyone who can do that (so far, I can't). I just tried to explain my personal belief that being able to do those things does not dampen the quality of lucid dreams nor its connection with your sub-conscious.

Originally posted by O'Nieronaut

Wow. Smack down. A bit pragmatic, but poignant.

I agree with most of what you say, but as a matter of self-fulfilment, don't you think that challenging one's ability to control dream elements, even to the extremes, can be a positive exercise in mentation and creativity? And by sharing these experiences with others, couldn't it encourage them to try for themselves, find out what they're capable of, and learn to ask their own questions about the limits of the mind? The only way to push the envelope is to shoot for the stars. Sure, maybe it's still a pursuit of spiritual onanism, but at least it's social!

But the LIMITS OF THE MIND are exactly what is cut off when the Dream Controller begins to erradicate Dream Content for the sake of an all destroying Dream Control.

In Religious-Mythological Terms (the language of the Subconscious Mind) the Dream Controller is setting himself up against God, to be his own Creator. Rejecting Dream Content in order to superimpose an imaginary and artificial Self Content is then essentially a Luciferian act of Rebellion against Heaven.

The Dreaming Mind tries to protect dreamers from themselves by implementing tactics to defeat Lucidity, such as False Awakenings. But if a person insists, then eventually the Higher Self surrenders and the person is then allowed the Freedom to cut himself off from all Divine Influence. Then the Dreamer can have complete Control, but it becomes a false, imaginary, and baseless, incipid, meaningless world. Dreams become pointless because they trace to no influence beyond the small self of the waking personality. One has cut himself off from God, Heaven and the Angels of Ordinary Dream Content.

Leo,

Isn't all you say just your own speculation? Who do you know that has achieved no limits in dreaming? Did they say that their connection to their Higher Mind had been broken? Who says it has been?

Although you go into great detail, you speak as if everything you say is factual. You rarely say "I believe" or "As I see it" in your statements. You state everything as if it's fact, which surprises me. The true nature and abilities of the mind are relatively unknown by mankind and many theories abound. I suggest you at least open a door of possibility that there may be other variables other than what you have mentioned.

Personally I don't know what to say on this issue, though. I don't know much about it.

Their dreams have become vapid -- like bad animation.[/b]

How do you know, did you go to a private screening of their dreams?

I do no know anyone who has achieved absoloute total control of LDing, i think it may be imposible, i think total control would mean that if you chose to you did not wake up. As i am an agnostic im not sure what to believe about all this shutting out god and declaration of rebelion against heaven is all about... bit extreme me thinks, if you can achieve total control it does not necessarily mean you are shuting god out, rebelling agaisnt heaven etc... (providing there is one) it shows dedication and extrodinary self disipline nd i aplaud ny 1 who has done it and encourage the rest to seek it.

Originally posted by Leo Volont

The Dreaming Mind tries to protect dreamers from themselves by implementing tactics to defeat Lucidity, such as False Awakenings. But if a person insists, then eventually the Higher Self surrenders and the person is then allowed the Freedom to cut himself off from all Divine Influence. Then the Dreamer can have complete Control, but it becomes a false, imaginary, and baseless, incipid, meaningless world. Dreams become pointless because they trace to no influence beyond the small self of the waking personality. One has cut himself off from God, Heaven and the Angels of Ordinary Dream Content.

By your statements, wouldn't the very act of lucid dreaming cause this separation? By what you are implying, it seems that you go against the very idea of LDing. After all, being able to control your own dreams to an extent would be the first step to having complete freedom in one's dream world.

I imagine you have an interest in LDing, otherwise you wouldn't be in active on these forums. Aren't you trying to break limits yourself by trying to have lucid dreams in the first place? You seem to be contradicting yourself, unless you go against the idea of lucid dreaming, in which case, why would you be an active member of such forums?

Originally posted by Matchbook
Leo,

Isn't all you say just your own speculation? Who do you know that has achieved no limits in dreaming? Did they say that their connection to their Higher Mind had been broken? Who says it has been?

Although you go into great detail, you speak as if everything you say is factual. You rarely say \"I believe\" or \"As I see it\" in your statements. You state everything as if it's fact, which surprises me. The true nature and abilities of the mind are relatively unknown by mankind and many theories abound. I suggest you at least open a door of possibility that there may be other variables other than what you have mentioned.

Personally I don't know what to say on this issue, though. I don't know much about it.

Their dreams have become vapid -- like bad animation.

How do you know, did you go to a private screening of their dreams?[/b]

I love the people here. So Charitable. As soon as somebody comes along who knows something, the Torches and the Pitchforks come out and they want to lynch him for not being as admittedly stupid as everybody else.

What if you ever become smart and discerning. Will you then want to hide it and apologize for it, like you are asking me to do.

I suggest that people stop being small, bitter and jealous.

Originally posted by Badger
I do no know anyone who has achieved absoloute total control of LDing, i think it may be imposible, i think total control would mean that if you chose to you did not wake up. As i am an agnostic im not sure what to believe about all this shutting out god and declaration of rebelion against heaven is all about... bit extreme me thinks, if you can achieve total control it does not necessarily mean you are shuting god out, rebelling agaisnt heaven etc... (providing there is one) it shows dedication and extrodinary self disipline nd i aplaud ny 1 who has done it and encourage the rest to seek it.

Yes, it may be impossible to achieve total control in dreams, but I didn't want to go so far as to call these people liars. Are you?

And YES it does take extraordinary discipline to break a Connection to the Higher Mind and the Collective Consciousness. It is like destroying Rome with a sledgehammer. It takes a great deal of work but eventually one can look up and see nothing but ruins.

Also, as you are an admitted Atheist, we can only suppose you have some admiration for the Luciferian Character and Personality. Have you ever read "Paradise Lost" by Milton. The most compelling Character IS Lucifer. The Puritans investigated Milton time and time again because they felt Milton was making Lucifer too attractive. Milton had to explain a million times that the Luciferian Character IS attractive. Freedom, Independence, Self-Sufficiency, even the overwhelming Pride seems admirable until one is burned by it. Indeed, many people would like nothing better than to grow up and be Lucifer. In todays culture, who could be more successful or approved of? We praise and fight for "Freedom" and we commend and reward "Greed". It is a Luciferian World we live in now.

But then Milton reminded his accusers that Lucifer was a predator.

Now, when your Total Control Dreamers have totally cultivated their Absolute Selfishness, are you not the least bit concerned that they will be just as predatory as lucifer. When they have learned to despise every external influence, I would certainly keep an eye on the silverware and my younger sister whenever such a character would come around.

The Higher Mind and the Collective Consciousness keep us honest and accountable to our Moral Conscience. These people who turn that off... I would not trust them any longer.

theres no such thing as limits in the dreamworld, only expectations that come true.

thus, if you actually realize that your dreaming and anything is possible you can override all previous expectations of whats possible and whats not... (if you think somethings impossible then it will be)

although of course you cant never wake up from an ld.... that isnt actually a control factor

Originally posted by SantaDreamsToo
theres no such thing as limits in the dreamworld, only expectations that come true.

But of course there are limits. yes, many of the children who write into this Page insist that there shouldn't be limits, but they are talking from theory and wishful thinking. Everyone who actually dreams KNOWS that they have confronted limitations.

Children think in terms of absolutes. When I was a child, it just seemed logical that a falling object would achieve some absolute speed. Kids would talk about pennies being dropped from the Empire State Building as falling at 'a million miles per hour'. We were stupid kids. What did we know.

But now we have people who insist that Dreaming has no Limitations because that is what occurs to their uninformed imaginations. But Reality is often very different from uninformed expectations. Practice very rarely supports the conjectures of Theory.

Dreaming is real. There are Subjective Realities involved in Dreaming. Our Minds are not entirely subject to our Wills, or would we not all be able to be anybody we choose? But that is not so, is it? If it were... if we each had a total control over our Subjectivity... over our Minds, then we would all be intelligent and charming, no? But look around. We live in societies chock full of Dysfunction. People go to Psychiatrists in order to amend personality traits with which they feel helpless to confront without professional help. This must certainly mean that The Mind offers up impediments and obstacles.

But children take no notice and suppose that anything is possible. Get real.

Leo

What school of thought do you generaly subsribe to? It seems a bit dogmatic to me. I do respect your views on lucid dreaming, the mind, and higher sptrituality, but I have to disagree with you on several key pooints. I'm not trying to attack, but I will aggressively speculate and consider several alternate possibilities here; keep up the intelligent dialogue and try not to disregard too many peoples' defensive stances as Lucifarian stigmas. You never know when you might learn something new.

First of all, I don't think that taking control of a LD is necessarily a severing of a higher connection. I belive one should indeed be proactive in trying to investigate his higher existance, but how is that possible if one simply allows every lucid dream to take its course. There is no interaction with the ego, no chance for experimentation or exploration. True, it may be arrogant for someone to single-mindedly strive to become a demi-god, even in the dreaming state, but don't you think this might be a healthy outlet for such urges? This is much the same way masturbation is is healthy outlet for the urge to fornicate. People are imperfect; anyone who chooses to take their sin into their own world, rather than inflict it on those around them, methinks scores a point on Lucifer.

To digress, what say you of shared dream experiences. Obiously, this requires the connection to the collective consciousness, and these events are always (in my experience) quite lucid and under some degree of control. Though circumstatial, and open to easy discreditation, this seems to contradict what you profess to know. You may call me a liar, but I know. You may call me dellusional, but I belive. You may call me crazy, but that would be speculation.

If you're here to save souls, then I commend you; that is good work, and rarely appreciated. Just be careful you don't create too many adversaries. The counterproductivity of preaching has a rich history, and I think that your conviction might be comming through a little too strong. Suggest and guide. Lead by example. You seem to state things as a matter of fact, where you surely do not have the arrogance to think you know everything yourself. If you tie the horse to the trough, he just might die of thirst for spite.

Leo,

Seeing how you've ignored all my previous questions and arguments that I've made on this thread, I will give up trying to further debate with you. (unless of course, you wish me to continue)

Instead, there remains only one question which I implore you to answer. Do you believe becoming lucid in a dream-state is one of those limits which shouldn't be broken? Do you believe that becoming lucid will "break a Connection to the Higher Mind and the Collective Consciousness?"

Please answer me at least this question if you wish to disregard all others that I've presented to you. Thank you...

Your mind is what limits your dreams. Reading a book in a lucid dream is not a limit, it is an impossibility.
Of course, if you have read the book before and have a photographic memory, go ahead and read it, otherwise you are merely making up words. In dreams there is no information input, we are limited to what we know. I'm not sure if what Leo says is true, but I keep an open mind and will explore those possiblities. However, if the Higher Mind helps your dreams become more vivid and hands over most control to you, could it not take the control away and produce a dream so powerful that it forces you to believe it is real, at which time it could continue teaching you whatever lesson you need to learn. I doubt it would simply give up on you and release its connections. This is all assuming that there is a Higher Mind. Right now I only believe in the subconscious. Lastly, my beliefs about the 10% of brain "myth" is that we only use 10% of the power our brains have. I've seen people try to disprove the 10% "myth" by saying, "Have someone cut off 90% of your brain and see how you function". This is not a good point considering the power of your brain resides within all of the brain. Thats like saying, "Cut off 90% of your engine and see how well your car runs", It's not about using 10% of the parts, it's about using 10% of the power. A good example would be our cars. If we push the gas pedel down slightly, only a little of the power that it is capable of is used. I believe our brains are stuck in 1st gear.

Leo said:

I love the people here. So Charitable. As soon as somebody comes along who knows something, the Torches and the Pitchforks come out and they want to lynch him for not being as admittedly stupid as everybody else.
[/b]

Leo,

I was wielding neither torch nor pitchfork when I was approaching you. Although my last statement in my reply was a bit sarcastic, my whole post was meant to be serious.

You have a lot to say, and probably a good deal of wisdom to share, but if you wish to be a teacher to anybody, you need to drop your elitist attitude. No one wants to learn from someone who acts as if they know it all and have nothing to learn from anyone.

Also, when someone poses serious questions to you, you become defensive and sarcastic as if you are being attacked, instead of entering into a serious discussion or debate. If you wish to share knowledge, perhaps it would be wise to answer more questions. Yes, some questioners are becoming a little more aggressive, but only because you have given yourself the reputation of being someone who says what he thinks and then ignores questioners.

You have a lot of book knowledge, definitely more than the average person, but don't forget that a lot of life's wisdom is learned from discussion and debate with others. Other points of view are exposed and the spectrum is widened.

Anyway, with all of that being said, would you mind answering my questions from my previous post? I was making serious inquiries because I am interested in what you were saying, but was just slightly taken aback by your approach.

Thanks. I don't mean to come across as offensive, but I have found it hard to communicate with you, so I felt it was necessary for me to state my feelings.