Thread: We only "think" we're lucid

I disagree. I know I experiance dreams in real time, because I've felt myself awakening and tried to prevent it in lucid and nonlucid dreams. Trying to stop yourself from waking doesn't do much good after the fact.

I defininetly think it feels like it is just a memory. Sometimes I feel like the people in the movie the Manchurian Candidate. (short synopsis if you haven't seen the movie)

The man remembers that he was on a routine mission in Kuwait, but it's like it never happens, it is a memory, that he has never experienced. It should not really exsist but it does. This is how I feel often when I try to access my dreams, I know it happened, but I just can't put myself in the experience of it.

This is how most normal dreams work. I think that when we finally cross the line into "real time" "real experience" dreams that we have a truly real amazing dream.

To experience a dream in this way, one must be so conciously aware, to really just be able to experience the dream world, like one experiences every day life. This is an tough feat to achieve. I've probably only experienced approxamitely three seconds of this, once after an intense M.I.L.D session, I'm pretty sure it exsist, based on other peoples testimonies, and posts here.

The only problem I have believing it is that, often times you can have the memory of having a lucid dreaming that was extremely vivid, but since you had not yet crossed into the threshold of "real time" "real experience" dream world it does not really count as a "full blast" LD. This happens to me every lucid dream I have. I think people post about this, but only post about the memory, so it is not a true "experienced" dream. It's true, the memory is there, but I think if a person has had a lucid dream experience, he or she will know for sure.

Some of the work LaBerge did in his labs were to have people move their eyes in patterns while lucid dreaming. These were recorded IN REAL TIME while they were in REM sleep.

Seems pretty conclusive to me.

Originally posted by Froggy618157725
Trying to stop yourself from waking doesn't do much good after the fact.

Good point! Alternatively, trying to wake yourself up from a nightmare doesn't work after the fact either.

Seeker's right. This theory has been proven wrong.

Tell your dad I'd like to have a talk with him. I've had so many dreams where in the dream I actually stand there in the dream thinking to myself "Ok, I'm in a dream, this is great"... and I will bend over and inspect the ground close up to see how real everything is in a dream. If I were not aware of the dream at the time, how could I be thinking and doing those things? And how can he explain how WILDs happen? I just had 5 last night where I went right from waking consciousness, intending to have a lucid dream, and then there I was, fully aware. Obviously your pa is not too knowledgeable about the world of lucid dreaming. Can I email him? I want to

How could you even consider the possibility of lucidly dreaming if real-time were not a factor? If what your dad says is right, might as well not enter the word "lucid" or "control" during it.

I know you've had LD's, and I have too, and during it, surely you are aware of the difference between waking and sleeping life, right? I think that's proof enough, subjectively.

And he only thinks he is consious now He cannot prove it nor can any of us but it dosent stop us from actually being consious now does it.

what IS consciousness? woooooooah. are we just memory banks? how are we, WE? man there must be a god because theres no way we could ever answer this, i think

Seeker's right about the LaBerge thing.

Jay Dawg's right about the questioning of real-time consciousness vs. "memory-banks" (after all, we don't really Know.)

And I just want to add that I disagree with Opehlia's dad also. Think about sleep paralysis. The transition from sleep paralysis to full-functioning waking life can take place fluidly, without re-entering/exiting the sleep state. But sleep paralysis is often plagued by vivid, real-time, hypnogogic images and sound, some of which have melted right in from a rather deep dream.

I think the "real time" thing and the "we only THINK we're LDing" are two different issues. The "Real Time" issue has been proven by LaBerge, as mentioned earlier. But the second one is interesting, in that it doesn't actually make a difference. In the same way that the "Five minute theory" doesn't actually make a difference (5 min theory = theory that the entire universe was created 5 minutes ago, in its current state... so, all our memories, etc. - just to point out that there's nothing that can possibly prove that this isn't the case; but it makes no difference what so ever).

Now why couldn't I think up any of this stuff on my own when my dad and I were arguing over this?

I'm taking you ALL with me next time

and thanks for all the input y'all

I like the 5 min theory. It kinda reminds me of how I feel when I wake up in the dream world.

Originally posted by Serinanth
I like the 5 min theory. It kinda reminds me of how I feel when I wake up in the dream world.

I really liked it when I first read about it. It's "agnostic fodder", in a way, but it stands logically, despite the apparent absurdity.

Nice Mandelbrot set by the way.

Here's my opinion on this:

Well ima noob but i think ( Hey if ur having an LD and it feels real enough) screw it just have fun! Forget all the science behind it, if it feels like real time the better it is! As long as u have expirenced it u know?

haha i know ima get critisized for thh but o well

i think its kinda like dreaming that your lucid dreaming its all weird and stuff this has happend to me all to many times and i dont like it ... i have been real ld deprived for to long im going to get back in the swing of things go me!!!

Originally posted by wannabelucid
Here's my opinion on this:

Well ima noob but i think ( Hey if ur having an LD and it feels real enough) screw it just have fun! Forget all the science behind it, if it feels like real time the better it is! As long as u have expirenced it u know?

haha i know ima get critisized for thh but o well *

nah man im not gonna critisize cus thats what its rewally about. im not LDing to prove something. im doing it for experience of it. cause its like: i know im doing it, and thats all that matters. in our OWN reality, it is real no matter what anybody else says. so them!

so does your dad LD ophelia? if he does and he still thinks that then obviously hes never had a true fully lucid LD....

Personally, I don't think that "Dreaming that you're lucid dreaming" is possible. I've seen a few people bring it up all over the forum, but I simply don't understand the concept of "dreaming that you're lucid dreaming." To be Lucid, you have to be oriented, you have to be conscious of yourself and your surroundings. When you are lucid dreaming, it doesn't matter if you're using powers, or aware that you can fully manipulate everything around you, it's just required that you're aware of "Hey. I'm dreaming, and everything I'm seeing right now is a dream." What you Do with that knowledge, or don't do, is up to the dreamer. So, with this in mind, how can someone "Dream they're lucid, but not really be lucid?" I think it's been proven well enough that lucid dreaming is infact relative to waking-life consciousness, as concluded in the Leberge Eye-Movement experiments. (I'd like to hear someone say "They weren't really conscious when they moved their eyelids in predetermined patterens to signal their lucidity, it was just their minds playing tricks on them." But they'd have one hell of a burden of proof forcing them to explain why they think this. To me, lucid dreaming has much in common with the parts of the innerbody that we are only conscious off through study, like the heart, and even the brain, which is a little more relative. Day by Day, increasingly as we get older and such involuntary things fade out of our consciousness and are taken for granted, we loose a conscious connection with different bodily functions. We take them for granted. Someone who doesn't put too much stock into their hearing, or eyesight, or breathing, or any other bodily functions, are still able to Do them, and Use them, but they are also able to become more Conscious of them, and learn to use them better than they even though possible, with a little practice and dedication. Dreaming is the same way.
In my opinion, lucid dreams are so elusive because, all our lives, we are conditioned to pay more attention to the physical, waking world. It's hard for some people to believe you can speed and slow your own heart rate just by consciously practicing on it. In a more extreme example, it is possible for both men and women to have full body orgasms by simply thinking about sex, if the thought is given enough conviction. But through our mainstream sources of information, many people go a full life's span without knowing these to be true, and when first told they are, quickly access their own memories and find reasons to contest that this just can't be. Ophelia's dad is simply another casualty of this "....mental manufacturing," if you will. (Not insulting his intelligence at all, Ophelia. We are all victims of this, because that is the way society is designed.) Lucid dreaming is no different. Ultimately, behind all of the respect we give to the power of our brains, our Consciousness is what controls it. I think that is what makes placebos so effective. Much eastern medicine is based on the knowledge that, if accessed the right way, the brain can send its natural amino-acids and enzymes all throughout the body, healing many of the same ailments that western "medicine" does. I'm not saying whether or not this is true, but it puts up a compelling question, don't you think? After all, there are billions of people all over the world without the aid of modern medicine that live to see more than one full century.

The long winded point I'm getting it (forgive me for rambling) is that dreaming is usually a Subconscious event. It's a function of the brain (if not believed to be something more astral, which I can accept) that we sometimes lose any Complete and Undivided interest in. (especially after growing out of "Normal" interest in it) But once your interest is peaked, and you actually Try to take notice, you usually end up having your first lucid dream sooner or later.

You should tell you father to humor you, and to take you seriously just long enough to research LD'd for maybe a week or two. If he tries it without a skeptical approach, there is a very good chance in having one himself, and experiencing the truely Conscious feeling of "HOLY SHIT I'm Conscious and this is all a DREAM!!!"


That is a pretty damn unforgettable sensation. Wouldn't you agree?

But then again, if he hasn't put too much stock in his own dreaming, and only remembers maybe 1-2 dreams a month, anyway, he might be a harder target, and I don't think I can help you in that case. 8)

But I'm willing to try so let me know what he says. lol.

oneir, i deffinitely have had dreams where i was thinking to myself that i was dreaming at the time, but i know i was not full on lucid. i know this for a fact. if i was lucid i would have gotten too excited and then woken up. in this example i was flying and thought i was dreaming but was not lucid, it lasted for a long time but not the whole thinking i was dreaming part. ive had this happen a bunch of times and i know others have too. it makes sense that we could dream about dreaming since dreaming has now become a dreamable object in our memory in which to dream upon. that calling upon dream related memory is far from being consciously alert and lucid, although it is surprising, it happens.

But that is a completely different situation entirely, Jay.
There is a grey area between subconsciously dreaming, and lucid dreaming. What you were doing is Questioning your lucidity. You know you were not fully lucid because you were asking yourself whether or not you were lucid, but you weren't just subconsciously dreaming, because your conscious was begining to say "Wait a minute.....is this.....hmmm...could this be...?" This is "consciously questioning whether or not you're dreaming" not "consciously Aware that you Are dreaming." It happens to me all the time. But it doesn't mean you're dreaming you're lucid.

Here is a good example from my dream journal:

08/01/2005
“Staring down the barrel of lucidity…and too afraid to embrace it.”

Things started off at a sort of get-together with a few friends, lounging around and watching T.V. for the most part. The house looked like my old home in Canterbury, without all the furniture. (People were pretty much just sitting on the floor.) But as the dream went on, the scenery became more and more erratic. If I can remember correctly, I asked about someone, a female, and someone answered with; “Oh, she’s right over there.” And as I turned, there was a big ugly monster in the living room also. I wish I could remember who this was representing, (and that I would have realized this as a dream sign) but I have my suspicions of who it was. Suddenly, the scenery changed.
Most of us were now outside, and the house was on a hill. (I need to note this, as I’ve seen this same house/hill/street combination in about three dreams, but don’t recognize them from waking life.) As people were leaving, only about three of us remained. (Though it was night, and I can’t remember which of my friends were there.) We were standing outside the house talking, when a van drove by slowly and started to continue on down the hill. All of a sudden, it threw itself in reverse, and we all had just enough time to see a pistol stick out through the passenger side window before we all scattered. Shots range out while we ran, the neighborhood beginning to look more like Canterbury (the neighborhood I used to live in) as we sprinted through it. Though we came to a picket fence connected to a house that, strangely, reminded me of an old neighbor’s house who’s fence we were constantly climbing over while playing when I was little. (this house was in a completely different neighborhood, and I haven’t even thought about this house since I was a child.) While running toward it, I noticed that one of my friends were still behind me, keeping up. As we approached the tall fence, still running full speed, I began to worry that taking the time to climb over it would get me shot. Then, for one fleeting moment, I questioned: “What if…..?” Without a second thought, I jumped into the air, placing my hands on the top of the 8’+ tall fence and vaulted over it without the rest of my body touching it at all. I paused on the other side after landing just as my friend landed beside me, having done the same. I was shocked and amazed at how easily we’d gotten over the obstacle. I believe that if I would have sat there for a moment longer, I would have recognized this as a dream and become lucid. But the gunfire started again, closing in from the other side of the fence. Wasting no more time, we continued running. (Missed Major Dream Sign #2)
Seeing headlights as we emerged on a parallel street, I dove to the grass, my friend jumping behind a tree that seemed to small to hide his body. The headlights and more stray gunfire passed over me, and when I could get away with it, I jumped up and ran to the tree to grab my friend and keep running. But he refused to move and said: “No, I hear them coming,” and opted to stay behind the ridiculously slender tree. But he was right, as I heard footsteps in the grass. I ducked into a nearby porch, sliding as much into the shadows as I could. Through the holes in the patchwork fence, I saw two pairs of legs coming closer, one of the men holding a sawed-off shotgun down by one thigh. They happened to stop right near the opening of the porch, right in my line of sight, though they weren’t looking toward me. Instead, they were looking in the direction of the tree my friend was behind. It was at this point that I knew I had to do something before they either shot @ the tree or turned and looked into the porch and saw me. With my attention on the shotgun, I suddenly ran out of the shadows, prepared to grab the gun as quick as I could and try to take both men down before the second man got a shot off. One hand grabbed the shotgun, pushing the barrel away to the surprise of the enemy. Almost simultaneously, my other hand flew toward the side of the man’s face to blind-side him and start a desperate combination with the intention of disarming him. But before impact, I met the invisible wall of lag that usually hinders my fighting when I’m dreaming but not lucid. (G’damnit I hate that.) Forgetting the gun for a moment, I tried to hit him over and over, each time meeting the subconscious barrier that felt like trying to punch through water. (Probably because, subconsciously, part of me never wants to have to clock someone, even when I know its necessary.)
It was Then, that I finally realized I was dreaming, complete lucidity hitting me for a fraction of a second. Though, I was still in such a state of survival instinct, that when the two men laughed sinisterly because I couldn’t fight them, and the first raised the shotgun barrel up toward my chest, my momentary lucidity caused my reflexes to respond to the threat by exiting the dream and waking myself up, before I could think of anything else to do. (Hey…I had a shotgun aimed at me…shut up. Neutral )
But, I woke up, staring at the ceiling. Knowing that there were so Many other ways I could have kept the lucidity going if I hadn’t pulled the plug. And of course there is only one thing to say when something like this happens:
“………..DAMNIT!!!” [/b]

After I jumped over the fence, I started to question my surroundings, and wonder how I was doing what I was doing, and if I was dreaming, but then the shots started coming and I lost track of though. Questioning your surroundings is not being lucid, nor is it dreaming a fake lucid, it is the uncertain area that is used to Pull you into lucidity. But if your mind strays from this, and something happens that takes your attention off of questioning your state, you easily fall back into a subconscious dream. If you would were conscious enough to go from "Am I'm dreaming" to "I Am dreaming." You would have been completely lucid.

Maybe this is what you've meant, all along, but I just think calling it "Just dreaming you're lucid dreaming" is a little misleading.

I definitely agree it is very much a memory thing, but lucidity is definitely real-time. How else would one control it and perform reality checks, etc?

TB

I strongly believe there are at least 2 types of normal dreams: ones where we are totally unaware of what's going on - this type of dream might be recalled and reviewed after awakening.
There's also another type - "action" dream, where you are in charge and all experience is real time. These dreams are just like RL memory.
As a lucid dreamer, most of my dreams are "action" type, and I belive that most nonlucid dreamers experience the other kind of dreams...



Now about "dreaming that you are lucidly dreaming" - it is possible, at times my mind comes up with some pretty weird stuff - WILD in a dream, FAs, false evenings, semilucidity and a bunch of other stuff. At times it is so twisted, it leads me to believe that almost anything is possible in a dream.

I agree with you on "Anything being possible in a lucid dream." But on "Dreaming you're lucid dreaming without actually lucid dreaming" let's look at it this way.
If you're dreaming, whether lucid or non-lucid, and you go to sleep in your dream, with the intention to lucid dream, does this mean that you're starting from a single mind state, going to sleep, and then entering another mindstate? Or that you're simply dreaming the same scenario, with the illusion of going to sleep again?

Could you look at a dream, inside of a dream, as really a dream within a dream, or a dream, in which you've Created The Illusion of going to sleep and dreaming? (whoa. Almost confused myself with that one. LOL) My point is, if you're dreaming, and you go to sleep, and are conscious of going to sleep, you're not Really going to sleep in the dream, your mind is creating the illusion that you're going to sleep (at least in my opinion) so therefore, a dream that emerged from such a situation would simply be a Dream Scene Change, into a scene that you're taking to be a dream within a dream, but is really just your Initial Dream itself.

So you cannot Dream of lucid dreaming, without Dreaming Lucidly, because if you are Lucid in your "dream within a dream" you're aware that the dream itself is a product of the dream you were just in, and you're officially Lucid Dreaming anyway.

If you're Not lucid in your dream within a dream, then you've simply given up your lucidity by going to sleep in your dream, and spinning yourself a non-lucid secondary dream, correct?