Thread: Lucid or Lucidish: Integration of Waking Self and Dream Self

Lucid or Lucidish: Integration of Waking Self and Dream Self

The other night in a Dream an older lady offered me a ride in her car and I accepted her offer. Soon a car ahead of us went out of control and this sweet little old lady did not react quickly enough to avoid a head-on collision with the careening out of control auto. The first of the impact sent us off the main road down an access road that was nearly straight down for miles. Being worried for the little old lady, I instantly spread my arms and intoned an AUM which slowed our diving wreckage of a car to a halt. I motioned some office workers – the side of this mountain was covered with office cubicles – to give me a hand with the old lady and we pulled her from the wreckage and delivered her to safety, whereupon I clapped my hands to allow the wreckage of her car to finish plunging to its fate.

Ordinarily I would have said that this was a Lucid Dream, because I used lucid powers. One would suppose that one can only use Lucid Powers after having become Lucid; however, we need to wonder whether Lucid Powers can simply be used from out of habit and customary use.

What is Lucidity but the temporary conjunction and integration of Waking Consciousness with Dreaming Consciousness, or, maybe more exactly, the possession of the Dream Self by Waking Consciousness. This Invasion of the Dreaming Self by the Consciousness of the Waking Self can bring a new perspective to the Dreaming Self. The Dream Self can be awakened to a sense of Morality (the Waking Self is never as morally decadent as the usual primitive dream self) well as being given a taste for the Miraculous, along with the virtue of fearless bravery that comes with repeatedly meeting and thwarting Death. When eventually all of these lessons are learned, the Waking Self no longer is required to completely take possession of the Dreaming Self, as the Dreaming Self learns to automatically do, in each situation, as the Waking Self would have done. So it was, as in my dream of the other night, that my Dream Self did exactly what ‘I’ would have done had I gone Lucid.

Well, in fact, my Dream Self may have taken my Lucid Skills to a more refined level. I cannot recall that I had ever before spread my arms to intone an AUM in order to evoke a Miraculous Event. It seems to be a skill that I learned from dreams of which I have no conscious recall. And then the suspension of the Miracle by a dismissive clapping of my hands… I don’t recall ever having learned that either.

Anyway, let us return to the distinction between actually being Lucid and simply engaging in Lucid Activities. Remember, True Lucidity implies that Waking Consciousness has taken total possession of the Dream Self. We know it is our Waking Self because all of our Waking Memory References are in play – the Guy who has the 9 to 5 Job at the Cement Plant, or whatever, is in a Strange Dream World and looks about in awe and wonder. But a Lucid-ish Dream is one in which the Dreaming Self reproduces skills that were first learned in the State of Lucidity, from contact with the Waking Self.

There is the matter of eventual Integration of the Two Selves – the Waking Self and the Dreaming Self, which may not be entirely healthy, as I would suppose psychotic individuals are those in which the Dreaming Self has risen to the Waking Surface. But I suppose the pathological Psychotic is one whose Waking Self has lost out and not been truly Integrated into the working combination.

I don't consider a dream I've had an LD unless I consciously understand that I am dreaming. It doesn't matter what activities I've undergone in the dream if I am not consciously connecting it to a dream. When we spend time during the day thinking about LDing, and the activities associated with LDing, and also having done Lucid Activities in dreams previously, it would only be natural for some of those activities to be integrated in normal dreams. However, the nature of those dreams tend to be, at least for me, more vivid than the average dream.

Originally posted by Matchbook
I don't consider a dream I've had an LD unless I consciously understand that I am dreaming. It doesn't matter what activities I've undergone in the dream if I am not consciously connecting it to a dream. When we spend time during the day thinking about LDing, and the activities associated with LDing, and also having done Lucid Activities in dreams previously, it would only be natural for some of those activities to be integrated in normal dreams. However, the nature of those dreams tend to be, at least for me, more vivid than the average dream.

One of the first really interesting books I read about dreaming was Dr. Ann Faraday's "Dream Power". Only a few pages were dedicated to Lucid Dreaming, but the overall premise of her book was that dreaming could be personally evolutionary -- that dreaming could transform the Character. So, certainly, the indication that Transformation would indeed be occurring would be that the quality of Dreaming would be improving.

Lucid Dreaming may only be a Catalyst. The Integration of the Waking Self to the Dreaming Self, and the Dreaming Self to the Waking Self may only require some limited regimen of Lucid Dreaming until the Dreaming Self has personalized and integrated all of those Lucid Skills that were originally the suggestions of the Waking Self. Of course, the next step in a Total Integration would be for the Waking Self to appreciate the Suggestions from the Dreaming Self. For this to occur, the Waking Self must in part relax its desire to totally dominate the Dreaming Self. We can see how Lucid Dreamers resent a too stubborn defense that the Dreaming Self asserts toward the wish of the Waking Self to achieve Lucidity -- false awakenings being the primary strategy of defense. Between the Waking Self and the Dreaming Self, there needs to be a certain amount of give and take... a balance needs to be struck.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Lucid or Lucidish: Integration of Waking Self and Dream Self

Ordinarily I would have said that this was a Lucid Dream, because I used lucid powers. One would suppose that one can only use Lucid Powers after having become Lucid; however, we need to wonder whether Lucid Powers can simply be used from out of habit and customary use.

Daa, lucid powers There is no such thing

It's just like being able to fly in dreams.
You can still be flying and not knowing that you're dreaming.

Originally posted by Crystalblue


Daa, lucid powers There is no such thing

Lucid Powers are what separates us from the ordinary Dream Characters -- the ability to levitate and fly is perhaps the foremost Lucid Power, but all of the other abilities, that if we were to do such things in waking life would be considered Miraculous -- those are Lucid Powers. And, of course there are such things. I suspect you only wish to quibble with words, or that you haven't dream enough to know, and suspect everybody else of lying about our dreams. You certainly didn't say enough to get any better notion of what you might be talking about.

It sheds a little more light on how dreams actually work.
When you dream 'lucid' and develop abilitys. And then these experiences after having done them, become integrated into your dream without lucidity. Its as if these experiences
are something you day dream about unknowninly. Disregarding awareness altogether.There is a TOTAL lack of awareness in this state. For these impossible things to be allowed and still it does not induce a lucid dream. So how effective then would Rcs really be and what is it about them that really makes you lucid?

I dont think there is 2 separate selves to intergrate, but that you are not connected to yourself and not in control or aware of everything you think. So unconsiously you may or may not have these lucid experiences. Depending on your ability to make some consious connection with that which you are unknowinly thinking about. If you gain to any degree some control over this thinking, by intention. In this amazing state where dreams happen,
you will be able to get some lucid experiences and control it somewhat.

Notice how RCs dont always work. Oftern they are not effective. Oftern we become lucid without RCs at all and just know. Perhaps the main reason why they work at all has to do with the fact they get you thinking about it, more than the actual logical test. If the test fails, maybe it just helps to boost your awareness slightly in a way we dont really think about.

The reason I am saying this is because I have had several examples where I said something, talked about having a dream about finding gold.Or seeing a tornado. Then that night I dreamt of finding gold. or seeing a tornado. Even though I did not at all consiously realize and place alot of thought into it.Or even think about it alot. To me that was in the very back of my mind. Yet somehow when I went to sleep, it chose that thought out of everything and produced an entire dream around it. So it just shows that you are never completely aware what you are really thinking. but there is definetely a connection and a way t control that connection and that must be the key to controlling dreams.
with this comes the subject of. Gettting 'in' them. And experiencing them fully. Which would be the next step?

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed


I dont think there is 2 separate selves to intergrate, but that you are not connected to yourself and not in control or aware of everything you think.

Well, I suppose I do see some separation between the Dream Self and the Waking Self if I later go on, as I do, supposing that the two Selves need to be integrated. Yes, there is some connection, as we recognize both Selves as having the common thread of being personic representations of our 'selves' -- one in the Waking World and the other in the Dream World.

I have accessed my memories when I have been dreaming, and it is startling how much of a life we have independent of our Waking Life. This entire coherent existence, once it is perceived, can no longer be ignored. It IS a separate Life. That Dream Self really get around. See for yourself... the next time you have a Lucid Dream, ask yourself a question in the vein of "Where exactly is this Dream Scene, and what do I know that happens to be close by, and how often am I in this area". The memories will flood on up.

The Important Thing to understand is that the Dreaming Self is not just some helpless zombie staggering around that is entirely useless until it is infused with Waking Consciousness during Lucidity. Yes, Lucidity does give the Dreaming Self some new perspectives, just as the Dreaming Self can give the Waking Self some new perspectives. Each Self CAN bring a new perspective to the other. That is what I mean by the term Integration.

Often in my dreams I think and I have all sorts of memories (not from real life) of the past. Now, I was just thinking these were faux memories my head had created, but now that you mention the above, maybe I am just having memories of other dreams, long and far gone? My problem is, I don't recall ever having the same memory in one dream as I had in another, so I'm not sure, but it could also just be due to my poor dream recall...

Originally posted by Leo Volont


Lucid Powers are what separates us from the ordinary Dream Characters -- the ability to levitate and fly is perhaps the foremost Lucid Power, but all of the other abilities, that if we were to do such things in waking life would be considered Miraculous -- those are Lucid Powers. And, of course there are such things. I suspect you only wish to quibble with words, or that you haven't dream enough to know, and suspect everybody else of lying about our dreams. You certainly didn't say enough to get any better notion of what you might be talking about.

You don't know what you are talking about. I’ve read books on lucid dreaming. Many books, and lucid dreaming is simply being aware you are dreaming. You can fly and do all the things you are talking about in a regular dream.

Like I said, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Lol, Crystalblue, you base your views on books? Other people's experience?
A lot of people on this forum are good lucid dreamers, they been doing this kind of stuff for years. I belive they are free to have their own opinions about dreaming


As for Leo's and Nirvana's ideas - they are very good. I've been thinking about this problem for quite a while now. I believe dreams are just another part of our life, and our dream personality is quite different from our everyday's one.
Lucid dreaming allows both parts of your personality to contact. It is obvious that some ideas will be shared.

Another idea that I particularly cherish is that our dream personality lies dormant during waking hours. It doesnt interfere much, but when it does, it is spectacular. At the same time our waking self often lies dormant during dreams. It is always there, but it rarely acts.


Integration or at least a dialog between both parts of me is my current goal. In the past 2 monts I've achieved some success: now I have the ability many kids supposedly have: on some level I know that I'm dreaming and I can wake up at will at any given time....

Crystalblue doesn't know what she is talking about...how long has she been here...2 days....wow....good job honey, keep it up!! lol RIIGHT

Im not even gonna bother saying DREAM LUCID to her...cuz it might start another discussion...or she just may not know what that means...so all you DV *represents* DREAM fucking LUCID

DJ jones

Originally posted by Ev
Lol, Crystalblue, you base your views on books? Other people's experience?
....

I’ve had enough lucid dreams. Not just reading books and your little Dream View membership. Leo has you kids in the palm of his hand. He talks like he is from a book out of the 17th century and you kids are falling for it. He is probably an old man with nothing better to do then to try to impress kids. You poor pathetic pee brains

Originally posted by themindsi
Often in my dreams I think and I have all sorts of memories (not from real life) of the past. Now, I was just thinking these were faux memories my head had created, but now that you mention the above, maybe I am just having memories of other dreams, long and far gone? My problem is, I don't recall ever having the same memory in one dream as I had in another, so I'm not sure, but it could also just be due to my poor dream recall...

In real life, it is difficult to summons up all of one's memories in one shot. Usually we are able to bring up a cluster of memories regarding one set of associations. The Waking like may be very much more confined than the Dream Life, and so Waking Associations regarding time and place may be throwing a wider net over a greater part of our life, but the Dreaming Self may have associations all over the dream world, where one set of associations may have hardly anything to do with the next. Or perhaps the memories of one dream location are confined to that dream location. The Waking Self may be able to gather memories from one place to the next, but perhaps the Dreaming Self must keep its memories confined to the area of the dream, as though that location represents an area of the mind in which the Dream Self is then traveling. To have other Memories, the Dreaming Self would have to relocate to another area of the mind.

Originally posted by Crystalblue


I’ve had enough lucid dreams. Not just reading books and your little Dream View membership. Leo has you kids in the palm of his hand. He talks like he is from a book out of the 17th century and you kids are falling for it. He is probably an old man with nothing better to do then to try to impress kids. You poor pathetic pee brains

Actually, my writing style does not go back further than a hundred years, but I am glad that you have noticed my attention to careful writing, even if you don't particularly approve.

Yes, you do have a point that the books on Lucid Dreaming have stopped off before beginning to examine the issues we are now looking at. This is not a Web Page exclusively for beginners -- though 'Newbies' are certainly welcome, there is also room for the advanced crowd.

You only need to look at Ev's response, see above, to realize that I was indeed writing for the benefit of somebody who has noticed a similar model for understanding Waking Self and Dreaming Self interaction and relationship. And then we find that other people have noticed extensive memories in their Dreaming Selves. Where have any of the Books ever addressed that issue. Are we all 'stupid' for daring to cover ground that the popular authors were hesitant to go? Perhaps they thought becoming too abstruse would scare away much of their desired audience, the kind of people who are afraid of 'big words' and such.

Oh, and it gives me great pleasure to hear you say that I am almost universally loved and admired around here, but I am not so subject to flattery as to suppose that your opinion in that regards even approaches anywhere near the truth. Yes, I have some friends, but I must have at least as many enemies. I would rather guess that you could start a sizeable club of people who in fact hate me. Maybe you could get something going... you could be the first Chapter President of the 'Leo Must Die' Club.

Oh, Crystal Blue did bring up one good point.... there was so much venom, that it was difficult to notice anything in all of that hate and disgust that could have been a valid intellectual issue, but the point was raised that all of the Dream Powers are independent of Lucid Dreaming.

Yes, technically, that is so. The old books on Dreams hardly mention Lucidity, and yet we still hear of Dream levitation and so on and so forth. However, all such Dream Skills are ordinarily primitive and unrefined. The Way Lucidity was even discovered was by people who wished to improve their Dreaming Skills. They would make a program out of giving themselves Auto-Suggestions in order to improve this or that in their Dreams. This inevitably lead to the realization that they were dreaming. The most typical scenario is of those who when found levitating become afraid that they will fall. So they make a great many affirmations or whatever, that the next time they fly in a dream, they will not be afraid. What happens when the Dreamer is then found Flying and this Waking Affirmation is remembered. This was virtually how Lucidity was invented.

Now, we can simply ask the people of this Page whether or not Lucidity is a great tool for refining the Dream Skills and Powers. My favorite example is to claim the benefits of the research I had done on Dream Levitation, all conducted while Lucid. I found that the Superman flight pose was prone to be low and slow, and that the preferred method for flying would be more like the Magic Carpet style -- that one can fly best by first assuming the lotus position, that is the yoga posture of sitting with legs crossed. So it is in most cases, that Lucidity almost inevitably leads to a refinement in Dream Skill and Ability.

Maybe "Lucid Powers" is perhaps a bit misleading as a term. Non-lucid dreams very often involve impossible and unnatural occurances which can include flying. I must say that Leo makes quite a bit of sense with his suggestion of seperate selves, hypothetically at least. The Dream Self looks upon these abstact and fantastic occurances without batting an eye, so to speak. When the Waking Self becomes active in a dream, suddenly it takes priority and we feel like explorers in a strange new world. The waking self can then take advantage of the abstractness of a dream, and manipulate it with conscious discretion.

Crystal Blue, you can just go run off and be a blonde...you must not have much time on your hand if you gotta come here and run your lil mouth about the Dream Views people..its kind of funny how you diss Us, but yet, you took the time to sign up and even write on the boards...so if you think your MIND and Dreaming is so good...then run off, go tuck your tail inbetween your legs...cuz if you do recall, under your name..it says LUCID BEGINNER.....So until you become Like Seeker or Aquanina or even Leo, some of the great people here on DV..then i suggest you take your attitude and go somewhere else, cuz quite frankly it just seems you are talking--to hear yourself talk..

Instead of dissing, why dont you for once...enlighten us...if so possible...?

Originally posted by Crystalblue


I’ve had enough lucid dreams. Not just reading books and your little Dream View membership. Leo has you kids in the palm of his hand. He talks like he is from a book out of the 17th century and you kids are falling for it. He is probably an old man with nothing better to do then to try to impress kids. You poor pathetic pee brains

Stfu bitch. You are attacking Leo for no reason, you are the pathetic one.

Ok guys...honestly everyone just settle down a bit. We all know what is and isn't possible in our dreams, so why should we care what someone who is completely clueless about the matter have to say?

Just ignore her...

hahaha I LOVE U CRYSTALINE!!! yes i know thats not a pic of u but thats not why. (although it would help if it was!) someone finally said what ive been thinking! (that thing about leos hands lol)

haha leo nice one. make a club for people who hate leo. hahaha genius. where do i sign. j/k leos not so bad.


BTW it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know dream powers are nothing more than just willing to do something in a dream. not sure what the big deal is. in my short LD today i flew in the air by jumping/willing to. what seems to be the problem

Originally posted by jay dawg
hahaha I LOVE U CRYSTALINE!!! yes i know thats not a pic of u but thats not why. (although it would help if it was!) someone finally said what ive been thinking! (that thing about leos hands lol)

haha leo nice one. make a club for people who hate leo. hahaha genius. where do i sign. j/k leos not so bad.


BTW it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know dream powers are nothing more than just willing to do something in a dream. not sure what the big deal is. in my short LD today i flew in the air by jumping/willing to. what seems to be the problem

I think the problem might be that you do not read topics carefully. I can fly and jump around when I'm lucid, and I'm sure most people here can. But can your dream self do things you'd normally do lucid in a non-lucid state?

Maybe you and crystal can get together and form an egotistical club where your opinion is unquestionably certain.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Maybe you could get something going... you could be the first Chapter President of the 'Leo Must Die' Club.

Sorry folks, there will be no fan clubs of that sort around here

Although Leo has butted heads with several members around here, the management of Dream Views respects his and everyone elses right to express his or her opinion.

All we ask is that you do so in a civil manner.

Originally posted by evolo


I think the problem might be that you do not read topics carefully. I can fly and jump around when I'm lucid, and I'm sure most people here can. But can your dream self do things you'd normally do lucid in a non-lucid state?

thats a brain buster. my head almost hurt when i tried to figure out what u were asking

but well the answer is obviously yes. i can fly and bend time on non lucids. i have done so in the past. SO WHAT SEEMS TO BE THE PROBLEM? hehe



ALSO: how can crystalblue know this much about leo if shes this new? someone told me "she" shares an account with 2 other accounts.... WHO ARE U DAMNIT! SHOW YOURSELF

Originally posted by evolo


But can your dream self do things you'd normally do lucid in a non-lucid state?

I remember back in the old days when there was no such thing as Lucid Dreaming. Dr. Ann Faraday, in her book "Dream Power" spoke of Lucid Dreaming over the span of less than two pages. Back in those ancient days, people worked with their Dreaming largely by Auto-Suggestion -- if you wanted to fly in your dreams, then that was the subject of all your waking affirmations, and in a few nights, or a week or two, one would have a flying dream. Nobody thought about the concept of Lucidity, and so there was no lucidity, but still, people were able to influence their dreams. Some of my most important dreams were not Lucid.

But yes, even Dr. Ann Faraday saw the promise in what was still very new when she wrote -- that Concept of Lucid Dreaming... yes, she only commented upon it in two short pages, but it was a very optimistic two pages, afterall, I remembered them (oh, wait, that was before I was such an old man and remembering things was far so less a grand accomplishment).

I still remember my first Lucid Dream. It came with great symbolism in itself. In this dream I was the leader of a Exploration Expedition. I was on top of a mountain where myself and my team had pitched a tent, and I was going over the maps. All very symbolic of higher spirituality. Suddenly, I realized that it was a Dream, and so I left the maps and walked outside and saw a Perfect mountain top with perfect pebbles under my feet, a beautifully real blue sky, and scenic valleys in all directions. It was breath-taking.

Are we all familiar with that famous Zen quandry which is "When one has climbed the flag pole, then where?" Well, when I was at the top of that Lucid Mountain, you can all guess what I did. I flew off the top of it.

But, I had already known how to fly. There WAS life before Lucidity.