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No no, it isn't the same. Bird is how we describe them, but dreaming is kind of personal no? For example, when people say OBE/AP, I think of a normal dream, not lucid, because they know it is an "AP/OBE". So an animal that doesn't knows what the human term for "dream" is, wouldn't be able to lucid dream. Pretty much semantics, and the fact that people don't study dreams of other animals so that saying they can do it or can't would be silly of me.
You are presenting some assumptions, Hukif, with which I have some trouble, and with which actual science hasn't even approached seriously considering, much less proving. Yes, science is coming to terms with the probably correct notion that many animals are far more intelligent than was originally (and arrogantly) thought. And yes some animals communicate in very complex manners, but -- as far as we know, and as much as the animals have cared to tell us, I suppose -- communication is far different from self-awareness (aka sentience). Hell, lots of human people communicate on a regular basis without even a notion of self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukif
Odd, I thought that was what this thread was about. Did I misunderstand the OP? And I must disagree one last time, in that though "lucid dreaming" may be a human term, I have to believe than any being who can bring their self-awareness into a dream will be lucid, regardless of the term the critter attaches to it.Quote:
Also when did we say they have lucid dreams? In fact I said that they can't because its a human term and thus can't be applied to them.
Wait, but if they realize that they are dreaming, then they are lucid dreaming. They won't know what it is called, but they know that they are dreaming and that's it.
Sageous: Language has been proven at least, so does conciousness for dolphins and some primates using the mirror thingy that is also used for human self-awareness.
Ofc, the mirror experiment is not going to work for lots of animals because sight isn't as important to them (Except birds) as it is for us, but you are right, Science is a bit behind on that because of antropomorphism, because the experiments are done with the mindset of "animals can't think".
Lets go a bit personal here sageous, you are a spiritual person no? If someone were to tell you that all your spiritual experiences are nothing more than BS would you really believe that? What if they use the example of a experiment where the scientist is with the mindset of it being false? Having a set mind before doing an experiment won't get you anywhere and trying to shot down the idea because of human self-holy-thought won't either. If you are interested, I can provide links to the language and self-awareness experiments too.
Solarflare: As I said, I am playing with semantics here. Its the same as why I don't consider AP or OBE to be in the same level as LDing, so you could be right. I said it previously in the thread, people that sleep-walk will get scared if they suddenly wake up in a different location. Think of that as a non-lucid then waking up and being frightened because you are now in a different location. Do animals wake up from dreams that same way? I think the fact that they don't, shows some (maybe primitive, don't know) difference they make between what we call dream and reality.
First, the presence of language and consciousness in a creature simply does not prove self-awareness. Every living thing has some level of consciousness, even plants, and communication is necessary in many (if not all) species of animals, so the higher ones would certainly develop complex methods to do so, including of the vocal variety.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukif
That aside, I believe that I mentioned that sentience may be possible in some animals, like whales, dolphins (basically dolphins are whales more interested in holding still for testing), and many other higher animals. Hell, I'm willing to say (and have, in print) that ant colonies could be sentient beings, when considering each ant as an independent brain cell. There are most likely other self-aware folks on this earth, but my point was that they are not our pets.
That said, if a species were self-aware, you'd think that by now they would have chosen to tell us about it -- which would have been most helpful for the whales (and gorillas, and elephants, etc, etc) if they shared that info, wouldn't it? Perhaps we would have been nicer to them?
I had no idea that language in animals other than us had been proven, and aside from asking who's proven it, given that scientists have little interest in the subject, why does that matter? Language is a complex method of communication, yes, but are those birds' or dolphins' complex songs filled with metaphor, introspection, hope, fiction, individuality, verse, and all the other things that elevate communication from a simple transfer of information (ie, "I'm over here," or "there is food") to a tool for questioning, establishing, and sharing the nature of our very existence? Don't get me wrong, complex communication -- language -- is an impressive thing for some animals to be doing, but it does not necessarily imply sentience.
Not sure I understand this bit -- is this mirror experiment the only test for sentience available? Can't we just ask them?Quote:
Ofc, the mirror experiment is not going to work for lots of animals because sight isn't as important to them (Except birds) as it is for us, but you are right, Science is a bit behind on that because of antropomorphism, because the experiments are done with the mindset of "animals can't think".
In truth I might, because I tell myself that at least once a week; it keeps me honest. Seriously, though, if someone were to tell me that, I would ask them why they thought it to be true, and perhaps, as I've done many times, have an interesting conversation about the source of the "BS." Are you saying that I should agree with folks who believe that their dog can LD simply because they believe it can do so? That doesn't seem very fair to me, or to a person who might hold a belief that could need a slight dose of reality injected. Remember, we're not talking about a person's spiritual beliefs here; we're talking about their pets' night life.Quote:
Lets go a bit personal here sageous, you are a spiritual person no? If someone were to tell you that all your spiritual experiences are nothing more than BS would you really believe that?
If a scientist has that mindset, then he should not be doing the experiment, as it will likely fail. But on the other side of that coin, since proving that, say, dolphins are sentient and can reason would be a very major, Einstein-level, discovery, shouldn't there be plenty of scientists actively trying to do that? Actually, I believe this was the case in the 1970's, though vast amounts of very positive research achieved very little results.Quote:
What if they use the example of a experiment where the scientist is with the mindset of it being false? Having a set mind before doing an experiment won't get you anywhere and trying to shot down the idea because of human self-holy-thought won't either. If you are interested, I can provide links to the language and self-awareness experiments too.
And yes, certainly if providing those links isn't too difficult, I'd appreciate a look at them. Perhaps I'll learn something.
Finally, Hukif, I have a feeling that we are more in agreement than you might think. I'll repeat once more that I believe there may be many beings who are not human that have self-awareness (and therefore can LD); I just don't think house pets are included in that group. I'm all for more sentient species, because the more self-aware folks we have on earth, humans included, the better this world will be. I think we might just differ slightly on what constitutes awareness, but that's okay.
Thanks for tolerating me...
Well, language is considered a high level cognitive ability of humans along with recognition of "voice" of other humans and separating each individual by this voice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Ah, then I understood you wrong... and so did you, because I didn't say it was the pets, just used them as an example and I totally thought you ruled out the probability. Well nothing to worry, always something new to learn, nice link.
There is a difference between being self-aware and plotting a whole plan to make another specie which you don't understand to stop killing you. It is like us, how long and how much technology did it take us to understand the language of some species? So even if they were self-aware, bet we are like a wolf eating a family member to them, something dangerous and not worth understanding. Though there are some animals that use humans on their favor.
That really depends really, I will be posting some links to videos/PDF of the experiments and you can draw conclusions, but for me it seems like at least they can feel empathy and anger as well as communicate it, heck monkeys have gone to war over a local fight, not because of food or anything, just to get revenge which for humans is an act that shows we are sentient and not very nice people lol
Yup, you totally got my point wrong. I was simply giving examples why "no sentience" or "can't talk" that are often posed to undermine animals (and as above used pets as examples) don't work for LDing in animals, but I did not take a stance in favor of lucidity at any point. And I was not saying you should simply believe it, but that you should not dismiss it just because, which is what many people do when it comes down to spiritual stuff.
It is the most common experiment and the one used on human babies to know when they become self-aware. We would need more technology to ask them or teach the animals how to talk/understand human language, both of these require money and interest. Not to mention if you teach them the human language, a lot of people would rule out that as sentience because that is not their normal behaviour, but something given by humans instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Agreed on that. There are two problems with the news. One: people don't like the ideea that humans aren't so special anymore. Two: It does get attention, it goes into stuff like documentals and tries to be put on public, but not many people take interest. Also, it isn't Einstein-level at all, just something that people are not accustomed to. A lot of people see signs of intelligence in their pets (Not saying there is, but what people see) so maybe they don't think much about it, some other just see animals like non-thinking creatures and give all the credit to instinct and thus it goes without attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Yeah, we were agreeing more than I thought, and apparently more than you did too lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Anyway onto links.
Crows who show signs of communication between them and next generations: CBC.ca Player
Crows that show learning skills in par with kids:
CBC.ca Player
Pigeons:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00221-0041.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...6900200223.pdf
Visual Categorization in Pigeons
Praire Dogs:
New Language Discovered: Prairiedogese : NPR
Birds again:
The Eloquent Communicators - YouTube Skip to min 35 if you want to go straight for the voice distinction.
Several animals:
Animal Minds - National Geographic Magazine
Dang this was harder than I expected it to be, I should save all the links or scan the articles I find for this. But yeah these are all good reads. And also tried to avoid anything about the big-ones (dolphins and primates).
The more I think about it, the more I believe you guys have it backwards. Awareness is the key, not language or intelligence. I think the biggest obstacle for humans becoming lucid is our penchant for daydreaming and internal dialogue. We are rarely mindful. We get distracted by our own thoughts, forget where we are. Every meditation I've ever studied strives to quiet this internal dialogue and these rambling thoughts so we can reach true awareness. Higher language, logic, and intelligence seems to hinder our ability to lucid dream. True awareness is not recognizing yourself in the mirror, it is being centered in ourselves, and witnessing our connection with our surroundings without distracting thought.
From my experience with animals, they seem to live much more "in the moment." They are constantly aware of their relationship with their surroundings. My dog knows right away if something is out of place. He freaks out if an object is misplaced, something surprises him, or somebody acts strangely. He is also very aware of his body language, the body language of others, and his place in relation to others. This seems like the mindset we try to cultivate for lucid dreaming. We increase our awareness. Pure self-awareness is not really the issue. Awareness of ourselves in relation to our surroundings and what is happening around us seems to be more important.
I think animals have us beat in this department. I was joking when I said it before, but I wouldn't be surprised if maybe animals are always lucid.
Oh, language/intelligence are my examples for how animals have greater cognitive skills than most people give them credit for. Think Sageous is in agreement with your idea and so am I, pretty much I am trying to play devils advocate for animal kingdom. Though your dog sounds really cool.
I don't think it's impossible for them to have at least some understanding of what a dream is, I mean dreams break laws. They may wonder sometimes why they have these occurrences were things aren't always "normal", especially after it gets dark. And perhaps the animal thinks to it's self "hmm, this is one of "those" times".
Hukif:
Thanks for the thoughtful response, and for the links. I think we are very much in agreement, and I especially liked your explantation for why thinking animals might not have been able to ask us to stop killing them. I'll definitely check out the links, but not tonight...
Robot_Butler:
Excellent thoughts! You have provided a nice summary of where we really need to be, fundamentally, to LD, and certainly lent us a view with which many of the Zen persuasion would tend to agree... Just be careful you don't confuse your dog's highly organized behaviors, and instinctual awareness of his surroundings, with a sense of self; there is a difference.
Nice chat guys... You wouldn't think a thread with an OP like this would yield such thoughtful conversation. But here we are!
Does it matter?
Not really, but it's interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolventity
I like to imagine that my cats are experts at lucid dreaming/OBEs.
In reality, I'm quite skeptical that they have that ability.
But maybe they can tell the difference between dreams and reality somehow. If they can, they probably dream about doing all the stuff they get in trouble for in waking life. Mostly murder though, cat's love murder.
If you ever have the time, RB, could you write out a few simple guidelines to each of the meditation types you've studied?Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
I doubt it. Most animals lack self-awareness in waking life, let alone they would gain it in their dreams...