Pyscho Babble and Spirituality.

[dreamboat]

Ok. I am not saying I prefer the Scientific Approach by any means. In fact I am a firm believer in Spirituality. But say, if I adopt a more logical viewpoint to attaining Lucidity, would it make things easier. In other words would this Empower me more or is it better to hold onto one's beliefs be they right or wrong. I just find it a little worrying that those "Vibrations" one experiences trying to achieve an OOB are nothing more than a Natural State. You can't blame us for trying though. I would hate to believe that once we are dead that is it. It has to be a Natural Defence Mechanism after all. (A Mortality Check). Is it wise to Slam these "Comfort Beliefs". Also it worries me why so many of us are trying to "Escape' into Lucidity. A Kind of latent "Death Wish" from reality. Just a Thought. Maybe Science and Spirituality have alreadly Melded into One. C'mon, Someone say they have seen the Ghost of their long dead Granny and re-affirm my beliefs.

[dreamboat]

We Can't................Either Way.

[Leo Volont]

Remember that the Scientific Approach can have absolutely no application in areas not entirely governed by matters of simple quantity. Science is helpless when it comes to making distinctions concerning quality, values and aesthetics. In this regards there is a quasi-logic that is sometimes applied, which transcends simple quantification to the extent that names and definition are assigned to things and discrete concepts, the pretention there being that to define a Thing is somehow to have gotten to its very essense; however, when you think about for a second -- a thing without a name is still the very same thing with a name, and the name never really matters, does it. So what Science can't quantify, it deals with by assigning it a name, but the name signifies nothing. The Scientific Revolution began so many centuries ago with the observations of such as Galileo and Bacon, that empirical observation should be respected above the purely mental speculations of such as the Scholastic disciples of Aristotle who would suppose anything to be True as long as it was logically consistent within the realms of pure thought. But Empirical Observation often showed Pure Thought to be in error. So after a good rocky start the Intelligencia soon celebrated an Age of Empiricism, where observation of real phenomena mattered for something. But it so happened that with material things, observation could be reduced to quantification. and this is where Science jumped track and descended back toward the Dogmaticism of Aristotle. Spiritual Things are observable, even if only subjectively, and in being observable are indeed Empirical, but because they are impossible to quantify, they are denied their status of being Real Phenomena and Science dogmatically refuses to even consider them. So we are told by Scientists who cannot fashion a simple qualitative or aesthetic thought that our most meaningful Dreams are the results of entirely random firings between nerve cells. Why such a shallow explanation? Well, it seems they have a machine that can detect random firings of nerve cells. So science is only as good as its instruments of quantification. It is a popular assumption that Scientists are smart; however, when one looks at actual science, it is all quite a bit of druggery -- collecting data into different columns. The numbers mostly have to speak for themselves, since the scientists are often too stupid to see what they really have to say. Take the American NACA Space Program for instance. When they were ready to launch the Challenger, the Doomed Space Ship back in the Eighties, a few of the Scientists pointed out that it was very cold outside and that at even higher temperatures than what then prevailed, the sealing o-rings would fail and the Mission would end in catastrophe, But the Head Scientist looked at the same information and explained that the tests of the o-rings were done at a higher temperature and so it was by no means proven that the o-rings would not somehow magically work at an even colder temperature than where the tests had been conducted... and so those who would delay the Lauch were doing so without any documented proof. That was NACA's Head Scientist. he was still Head Scientist when the next Space Ship exploded. So, anyway, I would recommend that we all as a Collective discontinue the unreflective Worship of Science. We need to appreciate Empiricism again. We need to acknowledge what Science refuses to acknowledge, that our Subjective Experiences are Real.

[dreamboat]

Thank's Leo. Ps.......Have you ever seen a Ghost. I did do a Sociology Degree but fell towards Post-Modernism. (Foucault of the Dream World).

[donbowyerson]

Oh, surely science can ferret out even the most arcane spiritual element! I believe we should use the tool of science, Leo, like a magnifying glass - to illuminate every aspect of our own reality. Worship science? Of course not! Science is not religion, even though it may seem that way at times. The Buddha approached religion scientifically. His suggestion was to start walking the path - the same path that all true religions call upon us to walk - and to see for ouselves the difference it makes in our lives. A very scientific approach to a very subjective situation! As for your ghost, Dreamboat, I can say that I have seen him. It was the ghost of a long lost friend, and I met him in a lucid dream! It was a truly profound experience for me, knowing that my friend was there for me at such a difficult time. I can certainly say that I believe in ghosts today - without question. Was my ghost simply a memory, congured from the soup of my unconciousness? Or did he come to me from the outside? I doubt that I will know for sure in this life. Even so, I will always subject my experiences to the magnifying glass of objective scrutiny. I have been "slamming" my "comfort beliefs" now for over a year (since the loss of another very close friend), with nearly devastating results for me, personally. I almost went off the deep end, but I emerged with a new set of beliefs. No doubt, my beliefs will continue to change. I feel this is good, however. After all, the only thing we can depend on is change...

[Loegaire]

Is lucid dreaming against the teachings of the Catholic Church? A friend of mine who'd tried astral projection once told me that his mom told him not to because it was, and that astral projection was a variation of lucid dreaming. I'm a devout Catholic and lucid dreaming is not going to make me change my beliefs, so- is it considered "wrong" in the same way that some New Age stuff is considered wrong?

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Loegaire Is lucid dreaming against the teachings of the Catholic Church? A friend of mine who'd tried astral projection once told me that his mom told him not to because it was, and that astral projection was a variation of lucid dreaming. I'm a devout Catholic and lucid dreaming is not going to make me change my beliefs, so- is it considered \"wrong\" in the same way that some New Age stuff is considered wrong? I do not know much about astral projection, however, Lucid Dreaming is a very natural thing, it is simply the state of knowing that you are having a dream. What you do with your dream at that point is up to you and in my humble opinion is subject to your waking morals. Most people have a lucid dream at least once in their lives. I am not Catholic, but I double the act of lucid dreaming in itself is against Catholic beliefs.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by dreamboat Thank's Leo. Ps.......Have you ever seen a Ghost. I did do a Sociology Degree but fell towards Post-Modernism. (Foucault of the Dream World). I've never been awake and seen a ghost. As far as University Degrees go, I think it does not matter so much what one Studied as where one studied. If one is an American than I suppose that no College in a Red State should be allowed to hold any credentials. If one cannot go to school in the East Coast Ivy League or somewhere in California, than one should simply save the money for something useful, like buying surfboards or getting high. You see, the great rural heart of America has been bought up by conservative businessmen and corporations who have paid off the Universities to give tenure to extreme Rightwing Ideologues. It must be a great place to buy good books very cheaply, since they won't be needing them anymore. The rest of the World's Universities must be in good order, as the rest of the World did not seem to have much difficulty in detecting the stupidity and the dangers of the American Bush administration. But then again, the common American is up against alot of pressure to be patriotic, and hollywood has recently bombarded the American Public with movies correlating War with Patriotism. and a Famous American Anchorman has recently published a Bestsellar "The Glorious Generation" in which it was asserted as the primary premise that a Generation is Great in proportion as it marches with discipline into the meatgrinder to absolute war. It expects alot of independent thinking to suppose that a people with absolutely no outside support can decide against every external influence. The small voice that whispers of goodness and morality can hardly be heard over the roar of the Bush juggernaut.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by donbowyerson Science is not religion, even though it may seem that way at times. ... Oh yeah? Any scientist that even contemplates saying a favorable word about either Spirituality or Extraterrestrials will immediately have his funding pulled. Have you noticed that Scientists insist upon saying that no CREDIBLE Scientist ever found evidence for Spirituality or Extraterrestrials. Convenient, since the instantly define as NON-CREDIBLE any of their fellow Scientists who break ranks with their DOGMATIC Belief Systems. anyway, after the Lawyers, next the Scientists. You know, after they started dropping Atomic Bombs on us we should have seen which way those guys were going with it all.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Loegaire Is lucid dreaming against the teachings of the Catholic Church? A friend of mine who'd tried astral projection once told me that his mom told him not to because it was, and that astral projection was a variation of lucid dreaming. I'm a devout Catholic and lucid dreaming is not going to make me change my beliefs, so- is it considered \"wrong\" in the same way that some New Age stuff is considered wrong? As a Devout Catholic one needs to understand just how Big the Catholic Church is. There is the Catholicism of the Bishops, but they have typically been the least devout of any Catholic, using the doctrines of Paul to grant them forgiveness for their corrupt and selfish lifestyles, their quest for power, and their ambitions for wealth. We, as Catholics, should understand that the Catholic Church is foremost a Collective of the many Exemplary Ascetic and Contemplative Religious Orders, as well as the Orders dedicated to Humanitarian Service. If one reads certain old Catholic Treatises, particularly of Saint Therese of Avila (made Doctor of the Church) than it becomes entirely clear that the Catholic Church is against no means for pursuing Spirituality. When I was still into Oriental Practices I was taken by surprise several times when I discovered that various Catholic Orders where participating in Exchange Programs with the Contemplative Monks of the other Higher Religions. It seems that Sufi Mystics, Buddhist Monks and the Catholic Brothers and Sisters are one big happy family. Indeed, I am a Catholic, and so far none of my Angels have warned me away from any of these practices.

[Nirvana Starseed]

Dream boat I have something to share that may make you feel a little better. I don't think there is any distinction between TRUE science and spiritually. They are the same thing. They are both about finding purpose and truth, gaining wisdom and knowledge. I apporach the situation not just clinging to what I want to believe, but to find the truth. And to keep to the highest I know to the best of my ability. It is only the structure of our society, manipulated by whoever. That has twisted the true meaning and purpose of spirituallity and science. My father had a near death experience. He is certain you do not need your body to exist. He told me about this cool place that he did not want to leave, but someone advised him he still had things to do so he decided to come back here. He is convinced there is life after death. I have studied many other cases of reincarnation and they seem rather convincing too. I have had other physic experiences about coming to know certain information that I should or could not have otherwise known. This reinforces my belief is the connection of all things. I also at time feel very strongly connected to things, and certain people. and events. hence my comment signature about dejavu. Personally as I continue into the journey of truth I find my increasing faith in a divine order purpose and structure in all things, and my feeling is leaning stronger and stronger towards knowing there is life after death all the time.....And not only that. But that your purpose as an infinite potential that was created of which you are one in this universe, that you will do things greater than you can currently imagine and that your purpose is perfect for you and it in inevitable that is will be fulfilled. At this point It makes much more sense to me with all I know, that there is indeed life after death. It is almost obvious. The reason for so much doubt in people I believe is the lack of connection within themself. And when we make that connection is will seem obvious and we will laugh and say ofcourse I am eternal. how could i not be? I am all of it.... Too asume we are random chemicals made up of a sort of robot lifeform that just dies when the body is dead, that idea is becoming really illogical with this new understanding. memory is not really stored in the brain at all. The brain is more like an antenna for information. this is backed by scientific evidence. Your thoughts are also proven clearly effect water..... When you begin to see the potential and the truth. It really begins to look like a joke to suggest we are only physical and what you see here is what you get. then you die. There is much much more to life.

[mattthew]

Such a philisophical thread! I'm not an atheist, yet I'm a believer in science. Dreamboat's original question as I understood it was, "is it better not to believe in things which cannot be proven by science? Are such beliefs mearly comforting escapism?" The key thing to consider is, do your spiritual beliefs require you to reject facts? There's no reason they should. Science leaves plenty of room for spirituality. First let's define science. Leo, you have a lot of good points, but you're defining "science" as "the socio-political career pursuits of self-proclaimed scientists." Of course it's true like any institution that there is a fanatical status quo to be maintained and politics to be obeyed which get in the way of progress and truth. However, the definition of "science" is simply "the study of that which can be objectively measured". You're right that many people (including some scientists who should be smarter) assume that anything which cannot be objectively measured does not exist. But the definition doesn't require that. By logic, just because A is not B, doesn't mean that B does not exist. It simply means that B is not science. By logic, to have something defined as science, there must also be not-science. Therefor one of science's limitations is it's own definition. But that doesn't mean that science isn't useful. Science tells us, for instance, that by observation of many people we know that your are more likely to have a lucid dream under certain conditions. Spirituality and science are mutually exclusive. Science is not a religion or a belief system of any kind, as people often assert. Again, some "scientists" may have strong beliefs such as Atheism or that subjective experience (spirituality) is purely imaginary. However, in having such beliefs they are not being scientific by definition! A higher power cannot be proven not to exist, since it is immeasurable. Also, just because an observation cannot be independantly confirmed does not mean it does not exist. The spiritual experience cannot be proven to be imaginary. Scientists are just people and people have beliefs and predjudices. However "science" does not have beliefs. Science is simply data. NirvanaStarseed, you are right that science serves truth and knowledge, but it is not defined as the search for truth. It is the search for facts. A lot of spiritual beliefs do conflict with science. For instance, creationism. Sorry, the fossile and genetic record disproves it. If you want to believe in it, you have to reject all of science. On the other hand, Donbowyerson's ghost came in a dream. No one can prove that wasn't really a message from a dead friend, no one can prove it was. Similarly, science cannot disprove astral projection unless you say claim that astral projectors can see distant physical objects. Then science says, "okay proove it." My question is, why shouldn't you be comforted by your beliefs? And ask yourself, if you are uncomfortable that your beliefs provide you comfort, than maybe they don't provide you comfort. Eventually you have to become comfortable with the fact that your beliefs are just your beliefs. No one can validate them for you except the higher-power you believe in. And as pointed out elsewhere, all experience is subjective. There is really only wonderful fabulous YOU. You are one in the same as the indivisible totality of the eternal present.

[dreamboat]

Personally, I wish there were more Heretics. Isn't Lucid Dreaming by it's very nature "Post Modernist' with all it's Fragmented layers, Scenes etc. We dream the Post-Modern then try to explain it with Science. Quite Bewildering.

[Ev]

Originally posted by dreamboat Ok. I am not saying I prefer the Scientific Approach by any means. In fact I am a firm believer in Spirituality. But say, if I adopt a more logical viewpoint to attaining Lucidity, would it make things easier. In other words would this Empower me more or is it better to hold onto one's beliefs be they right or wrong. I just find it a little worrying that those \"Vibrations\" one experiences trying to achieve an OOB are nothing more than a Natural State. You can't blame us for trying though. I would hate to believe that once we are dead that is it. It has to be a Natural Defence Mechanism after all. (A Mortality Check). Is it wise to Slam these \"Comfort Beliefs\". Also it worries me why so many of us are trying to \"Escape' into Lucidity. A Kind of latent \"Death Wish\" from reality. Just a Thought. Maybe Science and Spirituality have alreadly Melded into One. C'mon, Someone say they have seen the Ghost of their long dead Granny and re-affirm my beliefs. I doubt you'll become more lucid if you adopt scientific point of view. You might feel more comfortable with your achievements knowing that there's no inner demons other worlds/realities and all this stuff. At the same time you wont be able to advance much futher. Thinking of LD in terms of science is like a creating another room in your house: You will be able to become lucid, yet you might easily dismiss the coolest phenomena. By adopting scientific point of view you instantly create boundaries and limitations that would be extremely hard to overcome if you will ever want to go deeeper.... A more "occult" or at least open minded approach to lucid dreaming gives you more possiblities (it's like creating a tunnel or your portal from your house) : you will be able to interpret endless possibilites of dreaming and possibly advance even further...

[dreamboat]

Well Yes. But is this like a Carrot to the Donkey. I agree with a more Post-Modern approach to all this but I don't wish to venture down the lanes of Anthony Crowley etc. Just because I disagree with the Holistic views of Science does not mean I wish to embrace the Occult. Now we are getting into a Very Grey Area indeed.

[Ev]

In this case I seriously suggest you should develop your own system of beliefs and apply it to lucid dreaming. It it wont work first time, change it, do it until you find something that works for you. Feel free to borrow from science or occult... That's what I used to do and still doing. It caused a tremendous success in lucid dreaming and other areas of my life After all, spirituality is something you develop on your own, not something you buy at some store

[dreamboat]

Well Yes, I agree with you on that. I have always tended to follow my Gut instinct. No matter what others may say. Sometimes met with adversity no doubt. But it worries me that once we start sharing these "Off the Wall Experiences" we venture down the lane of Cultism. Maybe we should keep our Subjective Experience to Ourselves. ie, Keep it personal rather than 'Flying the Flag".

[mattthew]

Originally posted by dreamboat Maybe we should keep our Subjective Experience to Ourselves. Agreed - art and music are another such nuisance

[Ev]

what do you mean by "Off the Wall Experiences" ?

[dreamboat]

Well why should our personal dream experiences need to be quantified into an holistic factoid to be understood by all and sundry.

[evangel]

They shouldn't need to be, but they're still interesting to discuss, postulate, and theorize about nonetheless.

[dreamboat]

Well do American Universities discuss Marxism or not within Sociology. Not that I agree with it (I am Post-Modernist) but one has to see all available angles. (This last part was for Leo). And Yes, Big Brother is Watching. Let's all Holiday in Cuba.

[evangel]

I was thinking more like Canada... There really are not a whole lot of "available angles" when it comes to lucid dreaming (as compared to something like sociology) where we have a huge time frame of history, social studies, stats, and commentary to look at.