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I would like to know your opinion on this. Do you think people with disabilities have them even in dreams or not? For example, if a blind person has a lucid dream, can he/she see in it?
Do you think that being born with a disability or gaining it later on would make a difference? If someone was paralyzed in a crash and dreamt of walking, do you think it would be the same for somebody born paralyzed?
I always wondered this too, I believe it was in a book I read that said those born blind do not dream with visuals but those that became blind later in life can dream with visuals. I would imagine the same would apply to the deaf and paralyzed, but I have no source for that.
Of course, it would depend on what disability is in question.
If someone has never moved in their lives, or never seen anything in their lives, or never heard anything in their lives, I imagine it would be difficult for them to know what it's like. But people who are born blind do claim to see in their dreams, although it's disputed how similar their visual experienecs are to ours.
I'm guessing that, in a general case, if those impaired people can imagine what it might be like to do the thing they can't, their minds will try to simulate it in the dream. But maybe a deaf person can't even imagine what this sense of 'sound' might be like. I don't know. I haven't talked with a deaf person. But blind people apparently can imagine visuals, or they claim to be able to.
Those are some really interesting points Dianeva, that really made me think. I suppose it would be similar if one of us saw what the 4th dimension looked like in a dream, we'd have no real way of explaining it to other people or to ourselves, because we have no basis to compare it to. Kind of reminds me of reading about Helen Keller, her life story is pretty fascinating.
My opinion is similar to Dianeva's. I believe that blind people claim to be able to visualize images via forming an image by touch. After all, he or she will still have brain areas for sight unless blindness was caused by brain injury. But their idea of sense will probably differ from person to person.
I was thinking the same thing as dianeva. It would be like imagining a new color. Your brain can imagine what it would be like even if there isn't a color like that. I wonder how much our perseption of our senses very even amoung normal people. Would the color blue look the same if you saw it through someone elses perseption of the color blue that they established when they were babys. Maby it is similar though, we may never know. :P
Or my favorite one: can you imagine what it's like to use echolocation like a bat? (In case anyone doesn't know, bats shoot high pitched sound waves around them, and when the sound comes back to them they're able to form an image in their mind based on how long it took for the sound to come back, sort of like man-made radar.)Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMonkey
We can imagine what it might be like. When I try to imagine it, I get an unclear 3d green image in my mind. But we really have no idea what it's like for a bat to perceive with its echolocation. Maybe what the bat experiences is nothing like what we call 'vision', and it would be as impossible to describe to us (if bats could talk) as it would be to describe what 'color' is to a completely B/W colorblind person.
Humans can use echolocation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianeva
Here is a youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpxEmD0gu0Q
And wikipedia
Human echolocation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I remember reading in my philosophy book that people who were blind since almost birth, couldn't make out any forms after having their vision repaired. They could only see lines and colors, but didn't understand what they were seeing. So I'd assume that if you're blind since birth, you would not be able to see in your dreams, since you would have no experience to draw upon. If you can't even see after your vision is repaired in the waking world, I find it impossible that you would be able to in the dream world. I'd imagine that this would be similar for other disabilities also. I suppose that if you were paralyzed, you could at least animate yourself to move in your dreams since you would have seen people walking in the real world. I doubt it would feel the same for you though, since you would have never experienced the feel of walking.
Alright, that human echolocation was pretty incredible. I've heard about blind people feeling where they are from the air pressure, but not this. I'm not sure, but from what I've heard, bats have a sophisticated system which from the bat's perspective might seem entirely different from vision. I'm guessing that in the humans' cases, they're getting a mental image in their brain like when we imagine things.
In a psychology class we learned about an experiment involving kittens, in which some kittens were born and lived for a few weeks in a room with lines on the walls. There were 2 such rooms with 2 different groups of kittens. One had horizontal stripes, the other had vertical stripes. After being removed from the rooms, the kittens from the horizontal-stripe room had difficulty seeing things that were vertical, and vice versa. When a researcher tried to play with a kitten from the vertical-stripe room, using a horizontal toy, the kitten had difficulty reacting to it.
I'm just thinking here- you say that a paralyzed person wouldn't be able to really "experience" walking in a dream because they had never walked before in real life. But, I'm assuming none of us have ever flown in a dream, or stuck a finger through our palm, or any of the other weird crap we do in dreams, but that sensation is definitely there. It might not feel the same to a disabled person as it would to anyone else, but I think there would be at least some sensation.
We have an idea of what flying would be like though. I'm sure that people who are paralyzed have an idea of what walking would be like and that is what I think they would feel in a dream. I don't think they would experience what walking really is like for a non-paralyzed person though, since they have never experienced it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SophroniaLee
our brains are pretty good at making conclusions from very limited information. A person that has never walked before may still have moved other muscles in their life and they know what gravity feels like so I bet they could recreate a fairly acurate feeling of what its like. You never know.
I would say that you can do anything your mind can simulate. The body is pretty creative, and if you have anything to base it on, you can probably do it. However if you have nothing to base it on, then you couldn't. So if you were born blind, you have nothing to base sight on. However you could have a third arm in a dream, since your body would kind of know what it would feel like. You could be taller or shorter. You could switch genders. You could be an animal, or made out of stone. Or shoot lasers out of your eyes. Who knows if any of them would feel exactly like real life, but I am sure they are fairly close.
Maybe they wouldn't be able to see, but be able to feel everything without touching it. Like, they could sense it. They could then move about there environment without sight.
I'm sure a paralyzed person could simulate walking in a dream fairly easily. After all, a lot of people can simulate flying in dreams, which seems like it'd be a bit harder to simulate than a simple act like walking. As for blind people being able to see in dreams, I don't think it'd be accurate at all unless they weren't born blind. Id imagine if they could see, it'd be some crazy ass imagery.
I am a lifelong amputee and can tell you that in all my dreams I still have my disability, one of my long term lucid dream goals is to have a dream without it, just to see what it feels like. I'm sure that this is not the same for everybody and I imagine that people born blind or deaf will probably not experience vision and sound in their dreams but that just a guess really.
What limb has been amputated?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubert
Yeah, I would think that if you could see and then became blind, you could still see in your dreams, although I imagine it would slowly deteriorate. But if you were blind your whole life then I think it's near enough impossible, as you don't even know what light is. Same would apply for paralysis, depending on the condition of it.