Thread: Dangers of lucid dreaming? (A response to the Arizona shooting)

Originally Posted by r2d2651

Of course I'm joking...

Please don't make posts the could misinform members... It really doesn't help to further the discussion. And for members coming here because of inception, it could be misleading.

Originally Posted by Ayanizz

Could you please point out to me where you got the idea that he seems like a clever guy? Because, honestly, all I see is the rants of a madman...

This is/was the introduction on his youtube channel:



Either I'm seeing this wrong, or there really isn't much sense to make out of this.

Weird, I seem to remember already posting this reply, guess I closed the tab by mistake and never did. Yeah after reading through that I completely retract my statement haha, I was basing what I said on a couple of quotes I read, which weren't crazy like those - the news site I read completely forgot to include that whole section hah.

Originally Posted by Zebrah

Please don't make posts the could misinform members... It really doesn't help to further the discussion. And for members coming here because of inception, it could be misleading.

Originally Posted by r2d2651

Of course I'm joking...

Originally Posted by r2d2651

These people are why limbo exists..

Originally Posted by Zebrah

I hope you are joking.......Inception is fiction and only should ever be viewed as fiction.

En zebrah lighten up. It was a joke. This forum isn't that stiff... Hopefully.

That's like telling someone from beyond draming to not post there ideas. (although I do tell the BD people to ad "in my opinion"

Please don't take this as being rude but if you think about it the statements quoted above did not help the OP at all. Thus is in the same category as r2d2651.

Yet again I'm trying to put this in perspective, in a non rude way.

It's okay to go a bit off topic and make little jokes

I can't see any cause-and-effect link, here. There are tons of mentally unstable people who pose no danger whatsoever. It is the way he directed his energy that is the problem. He made the choice to do what he did. It doesn't matter if lucid dreaming made him crazy, or even if he was crazy. I can't remember the last time my dream guide passed me a web link to a hate blog.

I saw this thread when it first started but only just now got around to looking at the madman's YouTube channel. I noticed that he said he was interested in "conscience dreaming". The OP quotes him accurately as saying so, even though the OP wrote "conscious dreaming."

Given that Jared Loughner's YouTube videos are full of bizarre ramblings that don't make any sense to any sane person, he could have invented the phrase "conscience dreaming" and it might mean something totally different to him than "conscious dreaming". For example, if he meant "conscience" then maybe he is talking about issues of morality - how morals affect our goals/dreams.

Or maybe it was just a simple spelling error, though he did repeat it several times.

Even if he meant to write "conscious dreaming", I didn't see any indication that he was talking about "lucid dreaming". To me, it looked like he was using "dream" in the metaphorical sense- as if he were motivated to achieve a goal. He talks about sleepwalking too, and about mind control and brainwashing and the restraints of a government controlled system of grammar and a corrupt system of currency. None of it makes any sense really, but it is clear that he thinks we are all suffering from a delusion that he is conscious of. I took it to mean that he is consciously dreaming - taking control - while we are all sleeping in a brainwashed state.

Anyway, the dude is clearly nuts and there probably isn't anything good that can come from me or any other person who is not his personal psychiatrist thinking any more about what he intended or what he meant. But I don't see any evidence that lucid dreaming had anything whatsoever to do with any of this. Sleep deprivation, maybe.

Originally Posted by lucyoncolorado

I saw this thread when it first started but only just now got around to looking at the madman's YouTube channel. I noticed that he said he was interested in "conscience dreaming". The OP quotes him accurately as saying so, even though the OP wrote "conscious dreaming."

Given that Jared Loughner's YouTube videos are full of bizarre ramblings that don't make any sense to any sane person, he could have invented the phrase "conscience dreaming" and it might mean something totally different to him than "conscious dreaming". For example, if he meant "conscience" then maybe he is talking about issues of morality - how morals affect our goals/dreams.

Or maybe it was just a simple spelling error, though he did repeat it several times.

Even if he meant to write "conscious dreaming", I didn't see any indication that he was talking about "lucid dreaming". To me, it looked like he was using "dream" in the metaphorical sense- as if he were motivated to achieve a goal. He talks about sleepwalking too, and about mind control and brainwashing and the restraints of a government controlled system of grammar and a corrupt system of currency. None of it makes any sense really, but it is clear that he thinks we are all suffering from a delusion that he is conscious of. I took it to mean that he is consciously dreaming - taking control - while we are all sleeping in a brainwashed state.

Anyway, the dude is clearly nuts and there probably isn't anything good that can come from me or any other person who is not his personal psychiatrist thinking any more about what he intended or what he meant. But I don't see any evidence that lucid dreaming had anything whatsoever to do with any of this. Sleep deprivation, maybe.

Actually, no, they were talking about lucid dreaming. One of the things staff has to do is remove unrelated articles from the "Lucid Dreaming News" forum. In going through them, lately, there have been dozens of articles related to this incident that were posted. They were added because they specifically talk about Jared being a "lucid dreamer," which was also confirmed by a close friend of Jared, who says that Jared kept a dream journal, which his friend is saying that the investigators should definitely be looking into.

[Edit:]
Here is one of the articles we kept:

http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonor...ng-connection/
[/Edit]

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Actually, no, they were talking about lucid dreaming. One of the things staff has to do is remove unrelated articles from the "Lucid Dreaming News" forum. In going through them, lately, there have been dozens of articles related to this incident that were posted. They were added because they specifically talk about Jared being a "lucid dreamer," which was also confirmed by a close friend of Jared, who says that Jared kept a dream journal, which his friend is saying that the investigators should definitely be looking into.

I saw the guy's mugshot today, and it must be said: I wouldn't want to be the investigator having to go through that. If you see the look in his eyes, I don't think you can imagine the horrid stuff they are going to find in something as personal as the guy's DJ:s

Originally Posted by Ayanizz

I saw the guy's mugshot today, and it must be said: I wouldn't want to be the investigator having to go through that. If you see the look in his eyes, I don't think you can imagine the horrid stuff they are going to find in something as personal as the guy's DJ:s

Haha. Agreed. I couldn't even begin to imagine what that kid's dreams must be like.

Oi oi, dream content has nothing to do with his crazy behaviour, I have done billions of killing in dreams, but am not going to start mass murdering in waking <.<

btw, don't take that seriously.

Originally Posted by mazillion

Aren't there people on this forum who have been lucid dreaming for many years? They seem like normal functioning people to me..?

Well, I am for many years and my relatives do think I'm in danger of loosing contact with "reality". And sometimes I do start to feel a bit crazy
But seriously... this guy might have been a bit confused about dreams and awaken life, but from his writings it's obvious that he was totally deranged and incoherent and I'm sure from much deeper mental problems than mixing dreams and RL.

He is already very mentally unstable as it is. Lucid dreaming had nothing to do with his problems or the shooting. I think that what he did just makes lucid dreaming look bad, honestly.

It's not bad or dangerous. It's natural. He's the one with the problems.

Holy Crap, just saw the story Diane Sawyer did (ABC World News) on this lucid dreaming connection with this kid! What great publicity for the LDing community... <-- insert sarcastic icon here.

Been away for a while but had to sign in and see the reaction here. All I can say is... well- we should probably be careful what we say. No doubt big bro will be monitoring this 'behavior'...

-------------------------------------

I've noticed that entertainment tends to attract the mentally unstable not create them. It draws them in, giving them another reality with more freedom and less social constraints. Hell any video gaming type whether it be causal or hardcore seems to attract crazies. Look up the farmville incident, the one where the woman killed her baby that's my proof along with the kid who killed his mother and then himself because she wouldn't do something for him in an online game. Dreaming is another escape that is more easily compatible with life because it will not take up your free time. So it makes sense as to why lucid dreaming would appeal to that man.

Anyways that was my two cents

Originally Posted by Xovern

I've noticed that entertainment tends to attract the mentally unstable not create them.

Well said.

Originally Posted by Ayanizz

Then again, for 97%ish something of the world's population LD's are perfectly safe , and the other 3% has no reason at all to even know what it is.
This is indeed a matter of speculation ofcourse, but: my 2 cents

Where did you even get these statistics from....

Originally Posted by Somii

Where did you even get these statistics from....

That's where the -ish comes in I don't know what the percentage of insane people is in this world, and no doubt it's gonna be more than 3%, what this point was meant to say was that perfectly sane people can LD all they want. If you're already insane, bad things can (and with high probability will) happen.

Oh boy...
I hope the moderators realize there might be a big shitstorm incoming to DV now.

EDIT: On a different note, this happens all the time. I know this phenomenon all too well as a metalhead:s As soon as anyone goes on a killing spree, and he's even remooooootely connectable to metal (say for example, he's got one mp3 on his computer that can be seen as metal), they're all gonna go: it's the music! And then people look at all of us as if we're insane and can start killing at any time. We've had it here in Belgium a few times and I'm sure it happens in other places as well, same with games.

It's just because they need to be able to point the finger to something and at the same time take their hands off it. As in "We're not to blame, even though our system failed to get this person mentally evaluated/placed in an institution, after repeated signs that his mental stability was less than desired, and after repeated displays of behavior on the verge of dangerous. It's not the fault of the people around him/his parents/his schoolmates who have seen the signs more than enough without doing anything. Nooooooooo, it's the music/games/lucid dreaming."

wow....
when i get back to school if anyone mentions this at school boy will i have something to say

Originally Posted by onelucid

Shame on you ABC for misrepresenting lucid dreaming.:

"It takes a high degree of awareness to lucid dream. An insane person is not likely to be able to LD with any frequency, if at all. Dr. LaBerge (not Lebarge) is an accomplished scientist and would never claim that lucid dreamers can speak a real foreign language that they do not know in their dreams. That's hearsay, or at worst, made up. Presuming that Dr. Schwartz is not also being misrepresented by ABC, it is obvious that he is a not a clear thinker. I would not suggest that he try lucid dreaming, as is it doubtful that he could become cognizant enough to achieve lucidity."

Jared Lee Loughner and Lucid Dreams: Did Alleged Arizona Shooter Think he was Dreaming During the Attack? - ABC News

Mass media... The last place where you can find the truth and reliablity...

Thanks for the effort

Crazy people are going to be crazy. Big fucking news! I would love to see anyone attempt to take lucid dreaming away from the dreamers, lol. Maybe they'll start drugging our water supply...oh wait...they already do...

Oh and HEY TJ!! Stick around man.

I think many things can be dangerous to people who are psychologically vulnerable.
The average person won't be adversely affected by cannabis, for example, but it can be terrible for a certain few people, leading on to even worse things.

So, I think if the potential for madness is there, lots of things can bring it out. This guy seems like a nutcase to be honest, so I wouldn't put too much blame on something like lucid dreaming.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Actually, no, they were talking about lucid dreaming. One of the things staff has to do is remove unrelated articles from the "Lucid Dreaming News" forum. In going through them, lately, there have been dozens of articles related to this incident that were posted. They were added because they specifically talk about Jared being a "lucid dreamer," which was also confirmed by a close friend of Jared, who says that Jared kept a dream journal, which his friend is saying that the investigators should definitely be looking into.

[Edit:]
Here is one of the articles we kept:

VIDEO: Alex Jones and Waking Life – Jared Loughner’s lucid dreaming connection? - Desert, Science and Hot Dogs: The Three Sonorans
[/Edit]

No doubt all that is true. Sorry- the only thing I've read about him is from his own YouTube page (mad ramblings) and honestly it didn't occur to me to read anything elze before I made my post, which in retrospect was a bit silly of me. I'll blame time constraints and apologize!

But the good news (for me) is having discovered that there is a section here that keeps news articles about dreaming. Fun!

"This video is my introduction to you! My favorite activity is conscience dreaming; the greatest inspiration for my political business information. Some of you don't dream — sadly."

This sentence is VERY disturbing for me. I always thought lucid dreaming by it's nature must lead to a good place for a person's mind.

Originally Posted by Nikola

"This video is my introduction to you! My favorite activity is conscience dreaming; the greatest inspiration for my political business information. Some of you don't dream — sadly."

This sentence is VERY disturbing for me. I always thought lucid dreaming by it's nature must lead to a good place for a person's mind.

Some people spend their lucid dreams murdering everyone. Some people make themselves god and have their dream characters worship them. I can understand how someone who is severely unhinged can allow this stuff to manifest in their real lives. Personally I think it is wrong to murder or rape other dream characters...but that's a whole other discussion about lucid dream morality. We have no idea how this guy spent his lucid dreams, so it would all just be speculation at this point.