Dangers of lucid dreaming? (A response to the Arizona shooting)

Even if having a gun won't make you a killer, if you have easy access to guns (as in the USA everybody seems to have) this will make easier for mad people to kill. Just sayin'.
In Europe and Japan, just to name some examples, there has been gun control for ages and that has been more good than bad. People in my country overthrew a dictatorship only 30 years ago, although people had no guns. Only a handful of people were killed in the process. Although times have changed, I still believe we don't need guns to defend our rights and our freedoms. Violence only generates more violence.

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Originally Posted by Mayatara

Even if having a gun won't make you a killer, if you have easy access to guns (as in the USA everybody seems to have) this will make easier for mad people to kill. Just sayin'.
In Europe and Japan, just to name some examples, there has been gun control for ages and that has been more good than bad. People in my country overthrew a dictatorship only 30 years ago, although people had no guns. Only a handful of people were killed in the process. Although times have changed, I still believe we don't need guns to defend our rights and our freedoms. Violence only generates more violence.

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I agree with you on a personal level. But your information about Europe and Japan is really irrelevant since the US has a completely different history. People had guns from the beginning, the pioneers and the settlers and the militias. Think of the wild west and all that. It is a country that developed along with guns. There was probably a time in the early 20th century when proper gun regulation laws could've been effective in restricting the access to guns and the overwhelming number of weapons that exist now, but that is no longer the case. Even if you were to completely stop the sell of all guns in the future and make gun licensing very difficult, the guns are all still there, by the millions, and very easy to get ahold of. So the only thing you could do these days to make the US more like Japan (a country without a 2,000 mile border by the way) would be to start rounding up all the guns currently in existence which would cause major violations of search and seizure laws and a complete implementation of martial law. It would undoubtedly result in motivating the gun-nut type who are sitting around dreaming of being able to fight a goverment take-over and radicalize many other people.

It's just impossible to create a situation now in which guns are not ubiquitous in this culture. Non-Americans don't seem to understand this. There is no way to legislate away history and current reality. All you can do is pass some laws that limit the number of people who are allowed to carry guns in public (AZ lets anyone carry them) and also pass laws restricting certain assault weapons. I think that the number of crimes this would prevent is so small (since anyone can get guns illegally) as to not be worth the fall-out of radicalizing gun-nuts.

I don't think lucid dreams had anything to do with the shooting. If for one of my hobbies I walked around the block, then I went on a killing spree does that mean walking around the block is dangerous? Of course not. I do believe he may have used lucid dreaming to escape the world and live out his insane fantasies.

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Originally Posted by TIME

"Loughner's interest in his lucid dreams is significant, because last year the European Science Foundation reported that lucid dreaming "creates distinct patterns of electrical activity in the brain that have similarities to the patterns made by psychotic conditions." Loughner's drug use could have kept him from falling into deep sleep and encouraged lucid dreaming. The European group said paranoid delusions can occur when lucid dreams are replayed repeatedly after the subject wakes up. Loughner was replaying his lucid dreams in an extensive dream journal, according to his friend Bryce Tierney, who spoke with Mother Jones magazine."

The Troubled Life of Jared Loughner - TIME

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Wonderful...
I can see many people misinterpreting shit like this, in the future. :roll:

Reading more on it, though...
http://www.esf.org/activities/explor...26092cda6c2aa0

It seemed to me like Loughner was playing around with his brain in a lot of different ways, consuming a lot of conspiracy theories, playing with alternative religions, lucid dreaming, weird linguistic stuff.... I would think the more significant pattern here is that he was someone who was actively trying to mess around with his thought processes in any way he could, not any single one of those things. I personally would put lucid dreaming in the same category as method acting: lots of fun and deep emotional payoff if you're stable enough to do it right, very dangerous if you're already a couple screws loose. Hopefully the media can get the story right.

O.o wtf O? Silly news... that doesn't makes it significant.

i just read this in the most recent issue of Time magazine.

"by several accounts loughner had become fascinated with lucid dreaming, a dream state you can enter when half asleep. you are aware while in that state that you are dreaming. loughners interest in lucid dreams is significant, because last year the European Science Foundation reported that lucid dreaming "creates distinct patterns of electrical activity in the brain that have similarities to the patterns made by psychotic conditions." Loughners drug use could have kept him from falling into deep sleep and encourage lucid dreaming. the European group said paranoid delusions can occur when lucid dreams are replayed repeatedly after the subject wakes up. loughner was replaying his lucid dreams in an extensive dream journal"

to me this is all bull shit. the media is just looking for a scapegoat. lucid dreaming had nothing to do with it jared loughner was already mentally insane.

oh and heres the article they talk about from the european science group, what time magazine said was totally out of context. sounds like to me that the article is explaining how lucid dreaming could help treat psychosis.


New Links Between Lucid Dreaming And Psychosis Could Revive Dream Therapy In Psychiatry

im not even worried tho, even if they came to some ridiculous conclusion that it was caused by lucid dreaming, they could never outlaw lucid dreaming.

edit: just saw that this story was posted above.

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Originally Posted by JamesLD

i just read this in the most recent issue of Time magazine.

"by several accounts loughner had become fascinated with lucid dreaming, a dream state you can enter when half asleep. you are aware while in that state that you are dreaming. loughners interest in lucid dreams is significant, because last year the European Science Foundation reported that lucid dreaming "creates distinct patterns of electrical activity in the brain that have similarities to the patterns made by psychotic conditions."

Loughners drug use could have kept him from falling into deep sleep and encourage lucid dreaming. the European group said paranoid delusions can occur when lucid dreams are replayed repeatedly after the subject wakes up. loughner was replaying his lucid dreams in an extensive dream journal"

to me this is all bull shit. the media is just looking for a scapegoat. lucid dreaming had nothing to do with it jared loughner was already mentally insane.

oh and heres the article they talk about from the european science group, what time magazine said was totally out of context. sounds like to me that the article is explaining how lucid dreaming could help treat psychosis.


im not even worried tho, even if they came to some ridiculous conclusion that it was caused by lucid dreaming, they could never outlaw lucid dreaming.

edit: just saw that this story was posted above.

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I hate mainstream news soo much. They spout out lies to get views and in doing so have hurt our reputation and lucid dreamings. Many people naturally lucid dream all the time, it's a natural phenomenom.
I'm soo pissed right now.

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Originally Posted by Tripoli

I hate mainstream news soo much. They spout out lies to get views and in doing so have hurt our reputation and lucid dreamings. Many people naturally lucid dream all the time, it's a natural phenomenom.
I'm soo pissed right now.

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goood gooood, let the hate flow through you... lol

i feel your rage bro.

i forgot to mention that in my previous post, people have been lucid dreaming for ages, some are naturals and have been lucid dreaming every night for there entire life and they arent insane

This makes me mad. It's enough that since lucid dreaming isn't well known about. By default, people are going to make false assumptions of what it isn't. Now this simple hobby has been associated with this killer, this is probably just going to make things much worse.

Well, my parents knew that I'm interested in dreaming. The other day my dad called me asking if I heard about "lucid dreaming" and I told him yeah and that I get them from time to time. I was hoping he was going to tell me that there's some kind of convention or something, but then he tells me that Jared was a lucid dreamer and I was like "aw crap...". Later when I got home, my parents were like "you're into lucid dreaming, huh" and my dad jokingly said that hopefully I won't become some crazy killer. I knew he was joking though.

Then my mom asked me about it and she seemed fearful when she asked how many times do I get them. She's into dreaming too, but the fact that I have the same weird hobby that Jared has seemed to make her nervous. But I told her I get them sometimes and it's hell of fun because I can do what I want. Then she just starts asking "really... how do you do it?" lol and I went ahead and told my parents. I feel good at least that my parents don't think its anything bad, but I will probably have to keep reminding them that there's nothing unsafe about it. Since lucid dreaming is widely unknown about, it will be easy for people to make quick/irrational judgments about it.

I just hope people out there aren't too stupid about this...

lol I find this funny, now kids will have to hide LDing from parents? I actually told the funny story of Jared to my mom, she laughed hard.

So, now people are trying to control how others dream? So we don't even have that freedom? Just because some insane killer liked lucid dreaming doesn't mean that it is the reason, it means he wanted an excuse. And, if their dream goals were to kill someone, they need mental help, anyway!

I urge everyone to contact time magazines editor by email. [email protected] is the official email. Please put Lucid Dreaming as the subject. They need to be given the other side of the story. It makes me incredibly angry that now, lucid dreaming is going to be associated with a mentally unstable persons actions.

exactly, thanks to this, a future conversation about lucid dreaming might go as follows

me: hey have you ever heard of lucid dreaming?
person: isnt that the thing that crazy guy jared loughner did that caused him to shoot all those people?!?!
me:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w.../Face_Palm.jpg

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Originally Posted by lucyoncolorado

I agree with you on a personal level. But your information about Europe and Japan is really irrelevant since the US has a completely different history. People had guns from the beginning, the pioneers and the settlers and the militias. Think of the wild west and all that. ...

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Thanks. Your explanation enriched my perspective on this. I understand what you mean.

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Originally Posted by JamesLD

exactly, thanks to this, a future conversation about lucid dreaming might go as follows

me: hey have you ever heard of lucid dreaming?
person: isnt that the thing that crazy guy jared loughner did that caused him to shoot all those people?!?!

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This is already happening. I was discussing lucid dreaming on a friend's wall when a third person chimed in out of nowhere with this:

"Jared Loughner practiced lucid dreaming to the extent that psychiatrists and close friends feared it exacerbated his mental illness much more so than "political rhetoric" and demonstrated a lot of psychiatric and scientific evidence indicating lucid dreams can, in latent, otherwise passive, delusional sociopaths, with no propensity for violence, induce strong violent impulses that are almost impossible to control, and that these can be amplified by even mild drug use to %65 percent of people who have experiment with drugs and lucid dreaming. I'm as liberal as they come, and even think drugs should be legal, but lucid dreaming mixed with drugs, more than any political discourse, is shaping up to be what set this nutcase off. I think we have a lot more to learn about lucid dreaming before people start self medicating with it."

I'm not even sure where he's getting some of these statistics but they sound like b.s. Needless to say I gave him a nice verbal backhand. I also find it ridiculous that writers and speculators are combining lucid dreaming with the spectre of drugs to make one big scary problem that doesn't even exist. None of the psychedelic crap Loughner was using even remotely helps sleeping or dreaming.

Which psychedelics was he using?

It always seems to me that if a killer has a les common hobby than collecting stamps the news always tries to blame that.

I highly doubt this has anything to do with Lucid dreaming. Although I'm sure Lucid dreaming does have some negative effects on some people. Probably not to the point where they shoot 20 people, but it could affect them somehow. We all have different minds, so I highly doubt Lucid dreaming is completely safe for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Nikola

Which psychedelics was he using?

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According to the articles: cannabis, LSD, psilocybin mushrooms, salvia divinorum. All with capability to agitate a schizophrenic or unstable psyche.

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Originally Posted by Flixster

This is already happening. I was discussing lucid dreaming on a friend's wall when a third person chimed in out of nowhere with this:

"Jared Loughner practiced lucid dreaming to the extent that psychiatrists and close friends feared it exacerbated his mental illness much more so than "political rhetoric" and demonstrated a lot of psychiatric and scientific evidence indicating lucid dreams can, in latent, otherwise passive, delusional sociopaths, with no propensity for violence, induce strong violent impulses that are almost impossible to control, and that these can be amplified by even mild drug use to %65 percent of people who have experiment with drugs and lucid dreaming. I'm as liberal as they come, and even think drugs should be legal, but lucid dreaming mixed with drugs, more than any political discourse, is shaping up to be what set this nutcase off. I think we have a lot more to learn about lucid dreaming before people start self medicating with it."

I'm not even sure where he's getting some of these statistics but they sound like b.s. Needless to say I gave him a nice verbal backhand. I also find it ridiculous that writers and speculators are combining lucid dreaming with the spectre of drugs to make one big scary problem that doesn't even exist. None of the psychedelic crap Loughner was using even remotely helps sleeping or dreaming.

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holy shit. what a fucking idiot. i cannot believe some people. the media tells them one thing and all of the sudden they are an expert on the matter. this is the first real attack on lucid dreaming, i know nothing will ever really come of it cause its impossible to outlaw lucid dreaming, but just the fact that its spreading misinformation and giving lucid dreaming a bad name really pisses me off.

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Originally Posted by Flixster

According to the articles: cannabis, LSD, psilocybin mushrooms, salvia divinorum. All with capability to agitate a schizophrenic or unstable psyche.

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Whoa, stroooong stuff, especially the Salvia, not the stuff you want to overdo.
It makes sense now.

So far I haven't seen anybody link to this video of CNN discussing Lucid Dreaming and the incident. Give it a whirl if you want to get worked up and see people have no idea what they're talking about.

Loughner obsessed with 'lucid' dreams – Parker Spitzer - CNN.com Blogs

I blame sensationalized journalism with poor, poor lucid dreaming caught in the crossfire.

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Originally Posted by Captain Frapo

So far I haven't seen anybody link to this video of CNN discussing Lucid Dreaming and the incident. Give it a whirl if you want to get worked up and see people have no idea what they're talking about.

Loughner obsessed with 'lucid' dreams – Parker Spitzer - CNN.com Blogs

I blame sensationalized journalism with poor, poor lucid dreaming caught in the crossfire.

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Ugh. Horrible. Lucid dreaming - an amazing phenomenon, in itself - gets little to no mention in the media, until now. But now, all of those people - who had absolutely no idea of what lucid dreaming was - are going to start making the mental connection of: "Lucid Dreaming = That Crazy Motherfucker in Tuscon, who tried to assassinate the Congresswoman. Therefore, Lucid dreaming = Evil!"

What a massive step backward. :shakehead2:

Well, the ignorant will be ignorant. What can you do?

They talk about his obsession of Lucid Dreaming like he was super into it. Yet they claim he only had a journal for a year. This suggest to me that Lucid Dreaming is new to him. And like I mentioned someplace else. This kids mind seemed to be in such a turmoil that I doubt he was even any good at inducing Lucid Dreams. He may have had a couple. For most of us it takes a lot of work and concentration to induce Lucidity. Jared's mind is clearly more focused on other things.

It sounds to me like he is much more obsessed with the real world than he was with the dream world. But One thing is for sure. If he doesn't get the death penalty, he will have plenty of time and inspiration to be working on inducing Lucidity while he spends the rest of his life locked up.